Roy Halladay's Icon A5 down off of Tampa Coast

Well I just heard audio from the same “bro” where he estimates the crash occurred in about 3’ of water. Surely he could not have survived that impact.
 
Clark1961 said:
I see San Diego as your location so maybe you've done this: have you ever deliberately gone overboard from a boat into the open ocean? Assuming a non-dive, non-swimming deck boat here.

I've done MOB drills on offshore vessels. It's way too easy to get someone hurt on recovery or flat out lose someone in open water. If you've got a tender or a RIB it's a little different story. Recovery and boarding still suck.

Anyway I find it hard to fault someone for not jumping out of a boat.
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Hear ya here on that. I can't swim very well at all and have almost drown twice although once was in storm surf riptide, swimming for "fun". So unless I've got a real good PFD jacket on and somebody to help me get an unconscious body into a boat, it's real iffy if I personally could really be and help at all. I would if I seriously thought I could somehow make a positive difference and not kill myself. Although not an issue in this case, in cold water hypothermic situations there'd have to be some good boat heat available post-dunking. Custom thermo anti-shock suits are standard when we fly over the sound and already came in handy once for an engine out on the water in December.
 
James331 said:
... Also any aircraft that lands on water will never be near the safest aircraft built, by the very dynamic nature of water flying (let alone amphib ops) there will always be more danger then with land based aircraft.
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I never observe seaplanes flying all that high. But "skimming the water surface", other than when landing, seems particularly foolish. Maybe he was down so low he banked it and caught a wingtip on the crest of a swell. Who knows.

Your water "runway" has a lot more variables to contemplate than the typical paved surface, I agree. And once one of those high mounted engine amphibians or high-CG-on-conventional-floats airplanes is upside down in the water it's gonna stay that way.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Hear ya here on that. I can't swim very well at all and have almost drown twice although once was in storm surf riptide, swimming for "fun". So unless I've got a real good PFD jacket on and somebody to help me get an unconscious body into a boat, it's real iffy if I personally could really be and help at all. I would if I seriously thought I could somehow make a positive difference and not kill myself. Although not an issue in this case, in cold water hypothermic situations there'd have to be some good boat heat available post-dunking. Custom thermo anti-shock suits are standard when we fly over the sound and already came in handy once for an engine out on the water in December.
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I'm in a little different position. I've worked as a lifeguard and am very comfortable in the water. The thing for me was the first time we did drills it was an adventure. After that it was be real careful that no one gets hurt and think everything through from start to finish. Just too much exposure to risk to mess around.
 
whereisrandall said:
Y'all saw the video?
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That video was disturbing, at one point the guy says "there he is" but makes no attempt to pull him out, just continues his inane commentary. Pull the f'n boat up, stick your hand down there and see if you can pull him out. Too interested in his moment of fame....
 
Clark1961 said:
I'm in a little different position. I've worked as a lifeguard and am very comfortable in the water. The thing for me was the first time we did drills it was an adventure. After that it was be real careful that no one gets hurt and think everything through from start to finish. Just too much exposure to risk to mess around.
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Always been comfortable in the water myself. The biggest concern that’s always come to mind in an event such as this, would be the fact of holding your breath long enough to safely evacuate. I have no trouble swimming, but holding my breath for longer than a minute is pushing it.
 
Ryanb said:
Always been comfortable in the water myself. The biggest concern that’s always come to mind in an event such as this, would be the fact of holding your breath long enough to safely evacuate. I have no trouble swimming, but holding my breath for longer than a minute is pushing it.
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Do some underwater escape drills some time. It's eye opening.
 
Ryanb said:
Always been comfortable in the water myself. The biggest concern that’s always come to mind in an event such as this, would be the fact of holding your breath long enough to safely evacuate. I have no trouble swimming, but holding my breath for longer than a minute is pushing it.
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It would be especially difficult to hold your breath that long after you just crashed.
 
Clark1961 said:
I see San Diego as your location so maybe you've done this: have you ever deliberately gone overboard from a boat into the open ocean? Assuming a non-dive, non-swimming deck boat here.

I've done MOB drills on offshore vessels. It's way too easy to get someone hurt on recovery or flat out lose someone in open water. If you've got a tender or a RIB it's a little different story. Recovery and boarding still suck.

Anyway I find it hard to fault someone for not jumping out of a boat.
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Yeah, I started at a young age. City kids used to come upstate and get lost on hunting trips and freak out. Some of them floated down the river, some stuck in mud or on a cliff.
 
FastEddieB said:
What about doors with electric locks you can’t unlock once everything is shorted?
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depends were your fuses are..as someone who has had the privilege of putting a ford ranger into 12 feet of water, they float for a surprisingly long time. enough time to go " huh o sh_t, i F--ed up." quick grab it before it floats away!!! o S__t! get away from it its sinking! its surprisingly funny. even crazier insurance paid me 2k over what i bought the thing for. and i told them the absolute truth on what happened. and they paid for the tow fee...yes there were lots of hey i was just trying to clean the interior jokes going around. haha


insurance was statefarm btw. comprehensive covered it on a 10k truck...
 
PaulS said:
That video was disturbing, at one point the guy says "there he is" but makes no attempt to pull him out, just continues his inane commentary. Pull the f'n boat up, stick your hand down there and see if you can pull him out. Too interested in his moment of fame....
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The video is heavily edited. "There he is" could have been referring to the coast guard, or a buddy. Or, it could have been followed by "and there's his head over there" for all we know.

Whether it was the aircraft or the pilot, I still am sorrowful. We've all done stupid things, it's sad he had to die for whatever the cause.
 
And for anyone who thinks there is a rough crowd here:

“Outrage as two Boston radio hosts mock 'moron' Roy Halladay by making fake airplane noises, saying he 'didn't deserve sympathy,' and that his death was 'not a tragedy'”

‘You’re a multimillionaire with a loving family, and to you, you have to go get that thing where you can divebomb from 100 feet to five above the water with your single-engine plane with your hand out the window.

“'Wheee! Wheee! Yeah, man, look at the G-force on this! I’m Maverick! Pew pew pew! Yeah, man, look at this, this is so cool”.’ And you die! Splat!’​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5064703/Outrage-Boston-radio-hosts-mocking-Roy-Halladay-death.html
 
PaulS said:
That video was disturbing, at one point the guy says "there he is" but makes no attempt to pull him out, just continues his inane commentary. Pull the f'n boat up, stick your hand down there and see if you can pull him out. Too interested in his moment of fame....
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Possibly not, In a situation like that it's best the authorities took care of the issue. Lawsuits are going to be flying around and you don't want to be a part of it. If he was trying to get out then of course help as best as you can.

ElPaso Pilot said:
And for anyone who thinks there is a rough crowd here:

“Outrage as two Boston radio hosts mock 'moron' Roy Halladay by making fake airplane noises, saying he 'didn't deserve sympathy,' and that his death was 'not a tragedy'”

‘You’re a multimillionaire with a loving family, and to you, you have to go get that thing where you can divebomb from 100 feet to five above the water with your single-engine plane with your hand out the window.

“'Wheee! Wheee! Yeah, man, look at the G-force on this! I’m Maverick! Pew pew pew! Yeah, man, look at this, this is so cool”.’ And you die! Splat!’​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5064703/Outrage-Boston-radio-hosts-mocking-Roy-Halladay-death.html
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As per the article, anytime someone starts a sentence with "You're a multimillionaire" There is a jealousy element to the opinion.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
And for anyone who thinks there is a rough crowd here:

“Outrage as two Boston radio hosts mock 'moron' Roy Halladay by making fake airplane noises, saying he 'didn't deserve sympathy,' and that his death was 'not a tragedy'”

‘You’re a multimillionaire with a loving family, and to you, you have to go get that thing where you can divebomb from 100 feet to five above the water with your single-engine plane with your hand out the window.

“'Wheee! Wheee! Yeah, man, look at the G-force on this! I’m Maverick! Pew pew pew! Yeah, man, look at this, this is so cool”.’ And you die! Splat!’​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5064703/Outrage-Boston-radio-hosts-mocking-Roy-Halladay-death.html
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So some shock-jocks are this way anyway. See "Howard Stern" (among others).

But what most folks here don't realize is that the station they work for is being sold. I won't pass judgement on the group buying the station, but there are some folks that will just simply care even less in that kind of situation. "What are they going to do? Fire me?..."
 
James331 said:
What in the proverbial frack

Marketing a demo flight like that, I'm a pretty laid back guy who likes low level stuff, but with how they are pitching this, ESPECIALLY with their demographic, I really don't have words after that.

I just hope a cool airframe doesn't suffer for HORRIFIC business and marketing failures, this would be a AWSOME acquisition for Cirrus and everything they have leaned over the years, similar construction too.
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Yeah, that one view of banking and yanking on the deck at the bottom of the green arc, something like 40 kts., that's just plain nuts. I think it's a shame too, as the airplane itself is a pretty cool design. I could see shopping a used on in 10 years as we have a large lake and river system, and that'd be one cool plane for exploration.

FastEddieB said:
From the fragmentation, I wonder where the fuel went.

Could not see it from the video, but jumping into a fuel slick might give me pause.
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Back in the navy we did a drill, I think it was called burning water. It simulated having to cross a flooded ship compartment where there was burning oil on the surface. We went the length of an olympic pool underwater, I can't remember how many times we were allowed to come up for air, I think three. But, before we could come up for air, we had to put our hands to the surface and swish the water to create a clear spot, then come up for a brief gulp of air, then start swimming underwater again.
 
FastEddieB said:
What about doors with electric locks you can’t unlock once everything is shorted?
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I think most doors will mechanically unlock even without power when you pull the door handle open. Pretty sure my car works that way, although you have to pull the handle twice-- once to unlock, release the handle, and then pull it again to open the door.
 
Clark1961 said:
I see San Diego as your location so maybe you've done this: have you ever deliberately gone overboard from a boat into the open ocean? Assuming a non-dive, non-swimming deck boat here.

I've done MOB drills on offshore vessels. It's way too easy to get someone hurt on recovery or flat out lose someone in open water. If you've got a tender or a RIB it's a little different story. Recovery and boarding still suck.

Anyway I find it hard to fault someone for not jumping out of a boat.
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They say its 4ft of water.. you can stand and be fine.
 
Brad Z said:
Depends on the bottom. Sand, sure, mud, not so much.
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Its not quicksand, it’s usually muddy around inlets, but open water it’s sandy, it’s 75°F, saltwater for extra buoyancy and you have a boat right there (of course their moron friends might let them die while they stream it live).
 
Brad Z said:
Depends on the bottom. Sand, sure, mud, not so much.
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It's the Gulf, near the shore. It's sand.

But wrecks in the water are dangerous to approach. Many things you can get snagged and hung on - sharp edges, cables, wires, hoses, etc. Usually lots of loose debris present. Even if you have your head above water when you get caught on something, the wreck can shift and drag you under. Waves and currents move things around unexpectedly.

If there are clear signs of life in the wreck, sure, you do everything you can to get the guy out. Otherwise, it's best to let a trained and equipped professional crew deal with it.

Many years ago, when I was still diving seriously (caves, wrecks, etc.), I became certified as a rescue diver. One of the fundamentals we learned was not to risk a life to recover a corpse.
 
Half Fast said:
It's the Gulf, near the shore. It's sand.

But wrecks in the water are dangerous to approach. Many things you can get snagged and hung on - sharp edges, cables, wires, hoses, etc. Usually lots of loose debris present. Even if you have your head above water when you get caught on something, the wreck can shift and drag you under. Waves and currents move things around unexpectedly.

Many years ago, when I was still diving seriously (caves, wrecks, etc.), I became certified as a rescue diver. One of the fundamentals we learned was not to risk a life to recover a corpse.
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We’re talking about a small plane in 4 feet of water...not the Titanic in the North Atlantic, I think the risk was minimal. I’m pretty sure that the idiots videoing didn’t go through a risk assessment in any case.
 
teejayevans said:
Its not quicksand, it’s usually muddy around inlets, but open water it’s sandy, it’s 75°F, saltwater for extra buoyancy and you have a boat right there (of course their moron friends might let them die while they stream it live).
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While the video has been heavily edited, these guys don't exactly seem like the folks I want showing up if I ever have to ditch. I think I'd take my chances with sharks rather than these geniuses. Only positive is at least they didn't video in portrait mode.
 
Ryanb said:
Appears that you read it wrong. It says the ‘Icon has 2nd fatal crash this year.’
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No look at the headline on the CNN homepage, not the article page.
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The company might actually survive this. Depends on how much a jury thinks the company's bling advertising and marketing affects the decision making of a grown man. But if they don't change their culture there will be more crashes. Yeah, its a really cool airplane, and I bet it works great if you fly it like an airplane. It obviously works poorly if you fly it like a jet ski.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yes and no. Marketing definitely influences behavior however I do agree that the final responsibility for behavior rests on the individual.
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In reality among reasonable people, yes. But in our ridiculous “sue everyone any time something bad happens” legal system, different story. Personal responsibility went out the window a long time ago.
 
upstateny said:
No look at the headline on the CNN homepage, not the article page.
View attachment 57634
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Again, the article doesn’t say it was ‘his’ 2nd fatal crash. It was the 2nd crash in the ‘sports car with wings’ this year. I do see that it could be confusing if it’s looked at out of context.
 
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I don't think the impact to the company will be legal. It think the market will shrink as this airplane gets a bad name from this publicity. Can you imagine trying convince a skeptical spouse to agree to picking one of these up right now?
 
Ryanb said:
Again, the article doesn’t say it was ‘his’ 2nd fatal crash. It was the 2nd crash in the ‘sports car with wings’ this year. I do see that it could be confusing if it’s looked at out of context.
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c'mon, its a bad headline, moving on.... :)

upload_2017-11-9_9-37-26.png
 
Aahh the English language. Not an LL(1) grammar ;)

(google that if you have trouble sleeping at night LOL)
 
teejayevans said:
We’re talking about a small plane in 4 feet of water...not the Titanic in the North Atlantic, I think the risk was minimal. I’m pretty sure that the idiots videoing didn’t go through a risk assessment in any case.
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Funny. The guy who has the training tells you why you don't just jump into wreckage and you feel like you have to dismiss it.

I have done some surface water rescue training and no, without a trained crew and the right equipment I won't get into a wreck to recover a 'priority 4 victim' either.
 
Brad Z said:
While the video has been heavily edited, these guys don't exactly seem like the folks I want showing up if I ever have to ditch. I think I'd take my chances with sharks rather than these geniuses. Only positive is at least they didn't video in portrait mode.
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hahaha that was funny
 
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