Round-the-world teen sailor feared lost at sea

Uhh...maybe that's why I added the part about batting around anecdotal examples? Perhaps you missed it.


Adults ages 25 to 64 who worked at any time during the study period
earned an average of $34,700 per year. Average earnings ranged from $18,900 for high school dropouts to $25,900 for high school graduates, $45,400 for college graduates, and $99,300 for workers with professional degrees (M.D., J.D.,D.D.S., or D.V.M.).





And you are attempting to apply averages to a unique situation, which is not average.

Abby is home schooled and reguardless of if she has the credientials probally has already aquired an educations higher then the average high school drop out.

Also:
Lots of Money <> minimally functional
 
And you are attempting to apply averages to a unique situation, which is not average.

No, you asked:

What's so great about graduating from high-school?

And I answered. Now, you're trying to dodge.

Abby is home schooled and reguardless of if she has the credientials probally has already aquired an educations higher then the average high school drop out.

Supposition on your part. I guess you could also throw in Grrrrl Power just for good measure.

Also:
Lots of Money <> minimally functional

Do spelling and grammar factor somewhere in the equation?
 
I've been in enough storms and enough high seas (for a sailboat) to understand the recreational value derived therefrom. My definition of "fun" from leisure-time activities includes an assessment of potential atmospheric conditions.

That's because "Had a nice sail" doesn't sell print or airtime. With a proper level of seamanship applied, you might not be comfortable, but you won't be in danger.
 
No, you asked:


And I answered. Now, you're trying to dodge.

No, I’m not dodging. If you can follow the conversation long enough the question was asked in response to the assertion that Abby’s parents should make decisions to ensure that she live long enough to graduate high school. To take it out of context now and say it has nothing to do with Abby is dodging.

Supposition on your part. I guess you could also throw in Grrrrl Power just for good measure.

I admit to it being supposition, but it is offered as the opposite of supposition you made that if Abby’s parents were to be counted as “good” parents, they would make decisions that would ensure her graduation from High School (which would be quite a feat since she wasn’t even going to High School)

Do spelling and grammar factor somewhere in the equation?

Careful, I believe that is a violation of the ROC regarding personal attacks. It’s a veiled attack but it’s still an attack.
 
I guess you could also throw in Grrrrl Power just for good measure.

I must admit, that does bring up a question that has been in the back of my mind: I wonder if the public response (specifically, the furor at the Sunderlands) would have been the same if we were talking about a 16-year-old boy.

For my part, I don't think it makes a difference. But I wonder if it would.

-Rich
 
I must admit, that does bring up a question that has been in the back of my mind: I wonder if the public response (specifically, the furor at the Sunderlands) would have been the same if we were talking about a 16-year-old boy.

For my part, I don't think it makes a difference. But I wonder if it would.

-Rich

I wonder if the public response would have been the same if we were talking about the death of a 16-year old girl, instead of her fortunate rescue.

I think all would agree it could have very easily gone in that direction.
 
Does (SAR or other loss) insurance really exist for high-risk adventures? Sounds like an expensive one-off type of policy if you could get it at all.
 
Does (SAR or other loss) insurance really exist for high-risk adventures? Sounds like an expensive one-off type of policy if you could get it at all.

At Lloyds insurance exchange you will find a specialty insurer willing to underwrite pretty much anything.

So far, it is my understanding that around the world, govermental entities don't charge for SAR activities.
 
I must admit, that does bring up a question that has been in the back of my mind: I wonder if the public response (specifically, the furor at the Sunderlands) would have been the same if we were talking about a 16-year-old boy.

For my part, I don't think it makes a difference. But I wonder if it would.

-Rich

It really shouldn't make any difference. An idiotic parental decision is an idiotic parental decision, regardless of the kid's gender.

But I think there's probably a bonus level of outrage because it's a girl in this case. What would happen in say, Indy Car, if Danica Patrick were killed in a crash versus a male competitor? There'd be a story in People Magazine if she died, there wouldn't if it was just some regular racecar guy.
 
Does (SAR or other loss) insurance really exist for high-risk adventures? Sounds like an expensive one-off type of policy if you could get it at all.


Is insurance for a small boat on high seas available? Yes. Do most people carry it? No, it's just too bloody expensive. Most people carry what liability they need for acceptance into marinas and ports of call or go uninsured. Normally there is no debt to service so this isn't a problem. People with more expensive small boats that have debt on them will choose to ship them on Dock Express or one of their competitor companies since the difference in cost of shipping and driving is usually less than the cost of the premium increase (that is if the boat is even capable of the passage) and much less wear and tear on the boat and rigging.
 
It really shouldn't make any difference. An idiotic parental decision is an idiotic parental decision, regardless of the kid's gender.

But I think there's probably a bonus level of outrage because it's a girl in this case. What would happen in say, Indy Car, if Danica Patrick were killed in a crash versus a male competitor? There'd be a story in People Magazine if she died, there wouldn't if it was just some regular racecar guy.

Incidentally, Danica Patrick went to England to start racing real cars (as opposed to go-karts) at 16.

-Rich
 
Sailing is so easy, I can teach anybody to do it in 2 days or less. There are tens of thousands of five year olds out there campaigning Optimist Dinghys competitively sailing throughout the world. As I say, I can teach you everything about sailing in 2 days. Seamanship on the other hand is a lifelong learning experience. I am saying this right here and now, he seamanship was deficient. She allowed her rig to break, boom, end of story, deficient seamanship. She was still dragging the rig when they spotted her WAAAYYYY BAD SEAMANSHIP!!!

I am sure she did not "allow her rig to break" Henning. I know, and have read, of many accomplished, experienced sailors that have had their rigs break.

NOW...leaving her rig still attached to the boat dragging behind, that IS bad seamanship!
 
I am sure she did not "allow her rig to break" Henning. I know, and have read, of many accomplished, experienced sailors that have had their rigs break.

NOW...leaving her rig still attached to the boat dragging behind, that IS bad seamanship!


How does a rig get broken then if not by bad seamanship? Options: She left with a defective rig. That's bad seamanship. She was carrying too much canvas for the conditions, that's bad seamanship. She was in a storm so long with no relief that she lost control of the vessel and broached &/or rolled, bad seamanship on so many counts it's not even comical, and illegal as well. There is no excuse for losing your rig when you are the master of a vessel unless you have been attacked.
 
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How does a rig get broken then if not by bad seamanship? Options: She left with a defective rig. That's bad seamanship. She was carrying too much canvas for the conditions, that's bad seamanship. She was in a storm so long with no relief that she lost control of the vessel and broached &/or rolled, bad seamanship on so many counts it's not even comical, and illegal as well. There is no excuse for losing your rig when you are the master of a vessel unless you have been attacked.
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Sailing question: If you experience a knockdown even carrying no canvas would that be sufficient to break a mast? Or would a knockdown even happen w/ no canvas - would it just be that the roller careened over the boat temporarily covering it w/ water and then it would bob back up?
 
PS: and wouldn't you in very heavy seas have a storm chute deployed/dragged behind the boat to stabilize it? would that help?
 
And..... cutting the broken mast away or undoing the mess and re-rigging something would have required
a. like has been said - seamanship/experience
b. a fair amount of upper body strength which suggests that maybe - even if she knew it needed doing she was physically incapable of doing and even if she had been a large strong male might have needed another person to help accomplish especially in moderate to heavy seas.... which I think is another point towards not sailing solo even if you're experienced and strong etc... sometimes you just help to fix whatevers broke
just pondering out loud here....
 
How does a rig get broken then if not by bad seamanship? Options: She left with a defective rig. That's bad seamanship. She was carrying too much canvas for the conditions, that's bad seamanship. She was in a storm so long with no relief that she lost control of the vessel and broached &/or rolled, bad seamanship on so many counts it's not even comical, and illegal as well. There is no excuse for losing your rig when you are the master of a vessel unless you have been attacked.

Gernerally true- but a I saw a sailboat lose its rig on Long Island Sound that got hit with a waterspout! I saw they reefed down (as we did) as the storm approached; visibility went down, when we could see again, all we saw was their hulls (trimaran). I believe their story about the waterspout since I saw the storm rolling in (and was in it)- roll cloud and all. it was a severe storm.

I think it was difficult to avoid something like that that you can't see.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sailing question: If you experience a knockdown even carrying no canvas would that be sufficient to break a mast? Or would a knockdown even happen w/ no canvas - would it just be that the roller careened over the boat temporarily covering it w/ water and then it would bob back up?
Under no sail, catch a wave wrong and it can flip you. Henning undoubtedly has more knowledge about this.
 
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Sailing question: If you experience a knockdown even carrying no canvas would that be sufficient to break a mast? Or would a knockdown even happen w/ no canvas - would it just be that the roller careened over the boat temporarily covering it w/ water and then it would bob back up?


You can't sustain a "knock down" with no canvas, you can get broached by a wave and rolled, but technically, that's not a knockdown. A "knockdown" is when the wind knocks you on your rail, and you need too much sail up to do that. You don't get broached by a wave unless you lose control of the boat.
 
PS: and wouldn't you in very heavy seas have a storm chute deployed/dragged behind the boat to stabilize it? would that help?


Trailing a drogue or warps of line is one method, but it's not one I ascribe to anymore. The problem is it doesn't let the boat get up and surf, so every freakin wave poops you filling the cockpit and washing across the deck back to front. That's a recipe for way to many things to go wrong. I tried it for about half an hour in a hurricane with 35'+ seas and I had to cut the stuff loose. As soon as I did, the stern started rising to the waves and we'd start surfing down them doing 18kts with a hanky sized sail for a main stays'le giving us steerageway. Boat became imminently drier with only spray caps hitting us (rather than 3'deep sheets of green water) and we were making time getting the f- out of there. The problem with doing that though, is it takes some one driving the boat to the waves very precisely, 113' schooners from 1903 were not exactly designed to surf. To keep from getting broached or pitchpoled, you need to really drive constantly, and know what you're doing. No one can do that for more than an hour straight, and no autopilot can do it at all. That's why I have 6 competent helmsmen on crew when I do long range passages.

Other options include lying bow to on a sea anchor (basically a big parachute connected to the bow on at least a 300' lead) or just plain lying ahull, each of those has associated risk as well.
 
Valiant blue-water sailboats are made, of all places, at the Cedar Mills Marina on Lake Texoma, at least 200 miles from any salt water other than some doctor's acquarium in Dallas. I started looking at them closely when I was thinking about some serious passage-making in the early 90's and was amazed at the difference in rigging size and attach points, and the size of the main hatch. Lake boats have nice big, wide hatches. Those on the V's are narrow and dinky for a man of my proportions.

Guy at the boat place said the hatch dimensions had to be somewhat limited to prevent a swamp by a following wave. About then was when I decided I should probably just stay my fat ass at home, or maybe bare-boat around the BVI and try to talk like a sailor.
 
And..... cutting the broken mast away or undoing the mess and re-rigging something would have required
a. like has been said - seamanship/experience
b. a fair amount of upper body strength which suggests that maybe - even if she knew it needed doing she was physically incapable of doing and even if she had been a large strong male might have needed another person to help accomplish especially in moderate to heavy seas.... which I think is another point towards not sailing solo even if you're experienced and strong etc... sometimes you just help to fix whatevers broke
just pondering out loud here....

A $300 set of hydraulic rigging cutters can be used effectively by a 4 year old to cut away the rig. Not having/using them = bad seamanship.
 
Gernerally true- but a I saw a sailboat lose its rig on Long Island Sound that got hit with a waterspout! I saw they reefed down (as we did) as the storm approached; visibility went down, when we could see again, all we saw was their hulls (trimaran). I believe their story about the waterspout since I saw the storm rolling in (and was in it)- roll cloud and all. it was a severe storm.

I think it was difficult to avoid something like that that you can't see.

Under no sail, catch a wave wrong and it can flip you. Henning undoubtedly has more knowledge about this.


If you have a boat properly found for oceanic sailing, a water spout will not bring down your rig. At worst it will blow out your sails. The only way for it to generate enough force to break a good rig is in a gybe. If the boom accidentally gybed, that means there was no preventer. No preventer when running = bad seamanship. Most trimarans are homebuilt junk.

Allowing a wave to catch you wrong = bad seamanship.
 
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If you have a boat properly found for oceanic sailing, a water spout will not bring down your rig. At worst it will blow out your sails. The only way for it to generate enough force to break a good rig is in a gybe. If the boom accidentally gybed, that means there was no preventer. No preventer when running = bad seamanship. Most trimarans are homebuilt junk.
Long Island Sound != ocean. Most boats you see on LI Sound, Delaware Bay, Chesapeake Bay, San Francisco Bay aren't really oceanic vessels. As you weren't there, you can't really state what the situation was.

Allowing a wave to catch you wrong = bad seamanship.
I do agree with this.
 
Valiant blue-water sailboats are made, of all places, at the Cedar Mills Marina on Lake Texoma, at least 200 miles from any salt water other than some doctor's acquarium in Dallas. I started looking at them closely when I was thinking about some serious passage-making in the early 90's and was amazed at the difference in rigging size and attach points, and the size of the main hatch. Lake boats have nice big, wide hatches. Those on the V's are narrow and dinky for a man of my proportions.

Guy at the boat place said the hatch dimensions had to be somewhat limited to prevent a swamp by a following wave. About then was when I decided I should probably just stay my fat ass at home, or maybe bare-boat around the BVI and try to talk like a sailor.


The boys at Cedar Mills build a damn good boat. Too bad they have basically restricted their size by building on Texoma. 70' is about the perfect size. Easy to single hand or have a couple operate on day sails and cruise the Bahamas and such, big enough to take an oceanic crew or charter guests to make a living with. There aren't many good choices available in that range. Two things I don't like about a canoe stern though, they have a really obnoxious wallowing motion, especially on a beam or broad reach which is where you best sailing is. Second is it's not conducive to getting in and out of the water, and most people charter boats to enjoy the water. Fat old men have problems getting up a Jacob's ladder.
 
Long Island Sound != ocean. Most boats you see on LI Sound, Delaware Bay, Chesapeake Bay, San Francisco Bay aren't really oceanic vessels. As you weren't there, you can't really state what the situation was.

I do agree with this.

You were making a comparison between what happenned to a L.I. Sound boat and what could have happened to her boat. I was just stating why that is not an apt comparison because as you say, most boats on the LIS are not oceanic vessels and not built to the same standards. If you are in the middle of the Indian Ocean on it's border with the Southern Ocean in winter in a boat that is not properly found for Oceanic conditions = Bad Seamanship. Besides, it's the wrong time of year to get that stuff down here. There is very little tornadic type activity in the Southern Hemisphere (one active season in the US will spawn more than the last 100 years down here) and most of it is associated with Cyclones.
 
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You were making a comparison between what happenned to a L.I. Sound boat and what could have happened to her boat. I was just stating why that is not an apt comparison because as you say, most boats on the LIS are not oceanic vessels and not built to the same standards. If you are in the middle of the Indian Ocean on it's border with the Southern Ocean in winter in a boat that is not properly found for Oceanic conditions = Bad Seamanship. Besides, it's the wrong time of year to get that stuff down here. There is very little tornadic type activity in the Southern Hemisphere and most of it is associated with Cyclones.
Nope. Just making a case where someone's rig did go by the board by something other than poor seamanship.

There is no excuse for losing your rig when you are the master of a vessel unless you have been attacked.

Don't know what he could have done except lower the sails completely, but none of us were expecting a storm, much less a storm of that power. We were Ok with double reefed main sail. He would have been too except for getting hit with a tornado over water. We did check the weather, and the boat was certainly built for sound/bay type sailing.
 
Nope. Just making a case where someone's rig did go by the board by something other than poor seamanship.



Don't know what he could have done except lower the sails completely, but none of us were expecting a storm, much less a storm of that power. We were Ok with double reefed main sail. He would have been too except for getting hit with a tornado over water. We did check the weather, and the boat was certainly built for sound/bay type sailing.

Are you vouching for the condition of his rig? Yours didn't come down. I've seen enough trimarans I wouldn't take away from the dock except under tow.
 
Second is it's not conducive to getting in and out of the water, and most people charter boats to enjoy the water. Fat old men have problems getting up a Jacob's ladder.

That's not all they have trouble getting up . . . or so they say.
 
Are you vouching for the condition of his rig? Yours didn't come down. I've seen enough trimarans I wouldn't take away from the dock except under tow.
Yes, I am. We did know the owner.

Ours didn't come down because we weren't hit with a waterspout.

What's your beef about trimarans? I've seen enough boats of all types that shouldn't leave the pier except under tow. I imagine trimarans also have a spectrum of good to bad designs, construction, and matainance.
 
Yes, I am. We did know the owner.

Ours didn't come down because we weren't hit with a waterspout.

What's your beef about trimarans? I've seen enough boats of all types that shouldn't leave the pier except under tow. I imagine trimarans also have a spectrum of good to bad designs, construction, and matainance.

Lots of Cross and Brown designs were built out of construction site scraps of plywood, 2*4s and sheetrock screws and not very well. They were built as cheap as cheap can be. There are some good ones out there, but the majority of the homebuilt Tris are not seaworthy. I don't have anything particularly against them except that they have very little volume for the space they typically take up. Unless you get something like an F-27 Corsair that folds the almas in, they are a PITA &/or Expensive to get a berth for.
 
The key is have everything secured by the time the seas are sufficient to broach. When you're capsized, sealed, and the boom is beating on your porthole (which BETTER BE SMALL) you mucked up.

I do respect the south 40s.
 
Henning, you and I knock heads at every turn but this is one area that I have no doubt that you know what you're talking about. I'm PMing you also but thought I'd post the question here also. The Washington Post has an article about the Crafton family selling everything they owned and taking their kids to sea for the last seven years sailing the world. They said that it brought their family closer than they could have imagined, and have some fascinating tales and pictures. Apparently they had no sailing experience and spent 18 months learning to sail in Florida before departing on their journey.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on such a venture with respect to perils, handling finances in the various countries, what documents you would need to dock at a port, self-defense on the open waters, and anything else that you might think of.

I wonder how common something like this is on a shorter-term basis.
 
Henning, you and I knock heads at every turn but this is one area that I have no doubt that you know what you're talking about. I'm PMing you also but thought I'd post the question here also. The Washington Post has an article about the Crafton family selling everything they owned and taking their kids to sea for the last seven years sailing the world. They said that it brought their family closer than they could have imagined, and have some fascinating tales and pictures. Apparently they had no sailing experience and spent 18 months learning to sail in Florida before departing on their journey.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on such a venture with respect to perils, handling finances in the various countries, what documents you would need to dock at a port, self-defense on the open waters, and anything else that you might think of.

I wonder how common something like this is on a shorter-term basis.


It's not uncommon, and I think it is a great thing. I know several families who have done this, even trained up and sailed with a few. One of the great failings in education is cultural education. No better way have I found to meet other cultures than traveling by boat. I think it's great for kids, because no matter where you go, there are kids there as well and kids don't typically have any xenophobic biases so they have a good time with other kids where ever they go and this helps prevent future biases on both parties side. It also helps teach them responsibility. With accredited home school educational programs readily available, there is little draw back on that side, and with modern communications and sites like Facebook, it's easy to keep up with friends at home and share their experiences passing on what they learn of the world. Other kids are much more ready to believe what their friends experience over what a biased media is feeding them.

As for going from novice to cruiser in 18 months, I don't see much of an issue. I can teach anyone to sail in 2 days and if they take it seriously, they can learn enough seamanship in 18 months to be able to keep themselves safe, Private Pilot safe, and with an instrument rating if they have, and know how to use fully, a radar. Paperwork for other ports consists of nothing more than your passports and vessel documentation. Typically fees for clearing private vessels transiting are low, a few hundred dollars is pretty high, most are less.

Protection is a personal issue. I have never had a problem with firearms, but I always declare them on entry. There is always a system for handling them legally, but it is a good idea to have a gun vault of some form. Normally they just come record the serial numbers off your weapons. Sometimes they order you to lock them up along with the ammo and then they'll put a seal on the strongbox and if they come to check the seal and it's been broken, you're in trouble. Some places will take your weapons and give you a receipt and give them back to you when you get your outbound clearance. Most people however do not carry firearms. Most vessels the fighting will be close enough quarters that you can use tactical positioning to force your combatant to position themselves where you can kill them with a hammer and gain their weapon.

As for handling local finances, you always carry a few hundred in cash and let Mr Visa take care of the rest. There are few places left in the world that don't have an ATM or a 7-11/Circle K and other "necessities of life" stores that use EFTPOS systems. You can also use local "Agents" to help you through bureaucracies and acquisition negotiations and payments for parts and supplies, or you can also get great service from the local dock master for a modest tip and the hopes that you will tell others about their place, kinda the way Batavia Marina in Jakarta takes care of me. I'm in the heart of the largest Muslim nation in the world, and never have I been treated so well and been given such good service.

As for financing the journey itself, that's up to the individual. It's not exactly cheap, but costs can be controlled. Boats are like airplanes though, they require frequent cash infusions. BOAT= Break Out Another Thousand. There are ways to make money along the way though if you have marketable skills to other boaters, diesel mechanic, electrician and IT guy are particularly useful as is refrigeration. I'm lucky in that I get paid well to operate this boat and have no set budget, what I need to spend to assure things are correct, I spend, and the owner wants things to be safe and correct and has no issues with my spending habits. We have an infant and a pregnant wife coming aboard this week.

If you want to see some pics, look up caphenning@yahoo.com on Facebook, I've got a few pics up there.
 
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Definitely. When my Grandfather was 18 (~1932), he owned a farm and an airplane. 18 was a man then. Presently, 18 seems pretty young, basically a transitional age as most kids are heading to college to find themselves for the next 4-6 years. IMHO, most kids are not really adults until about 25 or so.

I would say 35 or so honestly. I know some really immature people for their ages. Sorry if I offended you! You know who you are.
 
There must be 60/70yo's on this list? Tell us about the 'kids' who still need 'guidance' at age 40 and 50! I have met a bunch of them! Is it child-rearing that is at fault or 'society'?
I guarantee I would have been kicked outta the house by age 18 whether I got a job or went to college or just tried to hang around. And it would have been the best thing for me!
 
I would say 35 or so honestly. I know some really immature people for their ages. Sorry if I offended you! You know who you are.

The thing is that biologically we have not changed, 18 is 18. However our society has changed, and these "kidults" are that way because we as a society LET it be that way.

18 is an adult, period. Grow up, act like one, or face the consequences.
 
The thing is that biologically we have not changed, 18 is 18. However our society has changed, and these "kidults" are that way because we as a society LET it be that way.

18 is an adult, period. Grow up, act like one, or face the consequences.

Well that's just it as you pointed out before, society has changed so there is no dire consequence to face. I remember living in Newport Beach and seeing 40+ year old trust funder locals riding their skateboards down the boardwalk, a more ridiculous site is hard to fathom. They act and speak as if they had not progressed from 14.
 
I don't know what the root cause is (maybe our better health and longer life in general?), but young people aren't given the sorts of responsibilities they used to get, and they're much more protected than they used to be.
 
I don't know what the root cause is (maybe our better health and longer life in general?), but young people aren't given the sorts of responsibilities they used to get, and they're much more protected than they used to be.

While that may very well be true on the average in our culture, as a blanket statement I don't feel it is correct. When you look at the third world, you'll see that is not true at all and pre adolescents are tasked with the responsibility of contributing to the family income. Another thing to consider is the complexity of the world we live in has grown exponentially since the 1940s, heck, since the 1970s as far as that goes, and along with it the amount of learning required before "responsibility" can be assumed by anyone. You also have to put into that the factor of "Why should "responsibility" be foisted upon youth?" Youth is a time of creativity and growth. Both are things that "responsibility" stifles. You have to be in the mental top 10% in order to maintain both along with responsibility through your life. It is that freedom of youth to be creative longer which parlays itself later in life that is a huge factor in the success of the US. Even Europe where youth and education is more regimented shows a difference in the adult/business/industrial world. There is a definite lack of imagination there and one is often met with the phrase "can't be done" when one has an odd request that a bit of imagination would allow one to diverge from the routine and reapply ones knowledge and equipment to satisfy the need. The problem is not with the youth in America, the problem is with the people who are supposed to be guiding and directing the youth in America. It is they (the parents for the most part) that are failing.
 
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