Robert McNamara Dead

Geico266

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He was directly responsible for many of the fiascos and out right mistakes of the Viet Nam War. The "wiz kids" were going to show the military how to run a war. From the non chrome plated M-16's to believing in micro managing the war from the Pentagon. Our military perform bravely, honorably, and won all battles under the most difficult rules of engagment ever imposed on them. His tenure as Defense Secretary under Kennedy and Johnson cost 10's of thousands of American service mens lives needlessly.

May he rot in hell.
 
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You can't run war like a business or a science experiment. "X" number of bullets, bombs or sorties run does not = "Y" enemy casualties. What a crock. :mad3:
 
He was directly responsible for many of the fiascos and out right mistakes of the Viet Nam War.
May he rot in hell.

I second that.

But the world will be a better place once his twin, the sugar boozer, joins him
 
He was directly responsible for many of the fiascos and out right mistakes of the Viet Nam War.

Rule #1: Never let facts get in the way of a good rant!

By 1964 most of the civilians surrounding President Lyndon B. Johnson shared the Joint Chiefs of Staff's collective faith in the efficacy of strategic bombing to one degree or another.[8] They reasoned that a small nation like North Vietnam, with a tiny industrial base that was just emerging after the First Indochina War, would be reluctant to risk its new-found economic viability to support the insurgency in the south

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

In early November 1967, McNamara's recommendation to freeze troop levels, stop bombing North Vietnam and for the US to hand over ground fighting to South Vietnam was rejected outright by President Lyndon B. Johnson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara

The "wiz kids" were going to show the military how to run a war. From the non chrome plated M-16's to believing in micro managing the war from the Pentagon. Our military perform bravely, honorably, and won all battles under the most difficult rules of engagment ever imposed on them. His tenure as Defense Secretary under Kennedy and Johnson cost 10's of thousands of American service mens lives needlessly.

It's probably a waste of time to ask for references that support your charges, but I'll ask anyway...not that I really expect a response.

May he rot in hell.

Niiiice.


Trapper John
 
McNamara did a lot of good as far as increasing efficiencies in many areas. He wasn't a very personable fella and was very numbers oriented. IIRC he used a lot of statistical analysis for metrics. Didn't go over well with folks like me on the ground when casualties and dead became box car numbers for metrics. We had to do enemy body counts also and those kinds of figures were applied to a lot of areas. He certainly never endeared himself to the troops.

The chrome barrel issue is a derisive one with folks that carried the early M-16s and suffered from the weapon not functioning properly in combat. McNamara specifically had a hand in this and over rode Stoner's recommendation. Troops died from that decision and it will never be forgotten by those placed in harms way with a defective piece of equipment.

I don't know how I actually feel about him. He certainly made mistakes and didn't identify with the grunt on the ground, but I'm sure he did a lot to increase efficiency in areas. I'll read through what the pundits say and just be glad when I got to RVN, the M-16 problem had been solved (if it hadn't of been, I may not get here today).

Best,

Dave
 
McNamara did a lot of good as far as increasing efficiencies in many areas. He wasn't a very personable fella and was very numbers oriented. IIRC he used a lot of statistical analysis for metrics. Didn't go over well with folks like me on the ground when casualties and dead became box car numbers for metrics. We had to do enemy body counts also and those kinds of figures were applied to a lot of areas. He certainly never endeared himself to the troops.

The chrome barrel issue is a derisive one with folks that carried the early M-16s and suffered from the weapon not functioning properly in combat. McNamara specifically had a hand in this and over rode Stoner's recommendation. Troops died from that decision and it will never be forgotten by those placed in harms way with a defective piece of equipment.

I don't know how I actually feel about him. He certainly made mistakes and didn't identify with the grunt on the ground, but I'm sure he did a lot to increase efficiency in areas. I'll read through what the pundits say and just be glad when I got to RVN, the M-16 problem had been solved (if it hadn't of been, I may not get here today).

Best,

Dave
That is probably a fair assessment of him. he certainly made mistakes, he did serve longer than anyone since WW2 in his role and he had the coolest middle name that spurred a great title for an anti-war movie.
 
I'm with you Larry. Those of us that lived through it don't forget the "facts" and sure don't need to find some Wiki writing 30 years later to back up what we saw for modern skeptics. :nono:

A lot of people were dying all around while he and LBJ micromanaged things such that nothing could be accomplished to shorten or win the conflict. He finally admitted his errors a few years back but that doesn't help those that never lived to see 1975. :frown3:

I too hope he's in a really hot place......:mad3:
 
The M-16 originally started off with a non-chrome plated barrel which caused a fouling problem. Since you started in the USAF you may not have heard of this as the USAF M16 version had chrome plating from day one. I heard about this years ago from some of the Vietnam vets in my VFW post.
 


To cut costs McNamara made Stoner mfg the M-16 without chrome lined chambers or barrels. They rusted and pitted in the humid environment of Nam causing horrible jams. In addition the troops were told they were "self cleaning" and no cleaning kits were originally issued.
 
You can't run war like a business or a science experiment. "X" number of bullets, bombs or sorties run does not = "Y" enemy casualties. What a crock. :mad3:

The military still uses some of his methods today (or contracts them out....)
 
The M-16 originally started off with a non-chrome plated barrel which caused a fouling problem. Since you started in the USAF you may not have heard of this as the USAF M16 version had chrome plating from day one. I heard about this years ago from some of the Vietnam vets in my VFW post.

I had 10 years in USAF, but 11 years in the Army.

I heard all sorts of complaints about the M-16 -- and after some research realized some of it was pure BS, some of it was typical Version One Point Oh stuff, and some was legitimate complaint.

The M-16s lightweight, high-velocity round was a compromise in accuracy, volume of fire, and carry-ability. The weapon was built of components that were meant to stand up to the rigors of combat environments.

The introduction of BURST mode in the M-16A2 (and a host of other improvements) helped reduce the frequency of jams (likely in a lightweight, rapidfire weapon that was notorious for creep).

The M-16 is not the M1 in .30-06 (probably the finest all-around rifle caliber ever).

But even the M-1 had problems -- primarily, the relatively slow rate of fire and the weight of the ammunition meant infantrymen waited for a "good clean shot" -- which often meant "never."

Anyway, I don't know if McNamara can be blamed for the rollout failures of the M-16. as the the M-16 was the product of a lengthy R&D that started immediately after WW2 -- long before the whiz kids came to town.

And no, Mattel did not have a contract to build the M-16. (see http://www.snopes.com/military/m16.asp)

But Jacuzzi did built the M1A1 Tank SIMNET trainer turret mockups.
 
I served two tours in RVN sir and the first was with Special Forces. I knew many folks that gave me first hand accounts of the M-16s initial shortcomings; hardened SF combat vets, not uncredible third party stuff. This lead to a Congressional investigation and several changes to the weapon. When I arrived in country the end of '68 this controversy was fresh in the mind of a lot of combat infantrymen.



I began in Special Ops in SF; we fired and maintained almost every American made weapon from WWII on. Later, on two successive A-teams, our CIDG were armed with those weapons. That is M-16s to carry, but .30 cal water cooled MGs and 50s on the permiters; 60 and 81 mm mortars; BARs, greese guns and you name it. We also fired and sometimes carried the weapons of our foes. As a matter of fact, we trained by having those weapons fired over our heads so we could recognize them from down range and give accurate reports when receiving fire from them.



Of the choices I had in Special Ops, I preferred the CAR-15. It was a very effective close in weapon. I carried seven magazines of 5.56 per canteen cover; five canteen covers on my web gear. I carried another 250 rounds in my ruck sack. With the M-1 or M-14; I could never carry 1,000 rounds along with all the other gear needed to go behind enemy lines for 5 to 7 days. BTW, I used the forward assist plunger on more than one occassion to clear a round.


Best,


Dave



Here is some more background from Wikpedia.



Secretary Robert McNamara ordered a halt to M14 production in January 1963, after receiving reports that M14 production was insufficient to meet the needs of the armed forces. Secretary McNamara had long been a proponent of weapons program consolidation among the armed services. At the time, the AR-15 was the only rifle that could remotely fulfill a requirement of a 'universal' infantry weapon for issue to all services. McNamara ordered the weapon be adopted unmodified, in its current configuration, for immediate issue to all services, despite receiving reports noting several deficiencies with the M16 as a service rifle, including the lack of a chrome-lined bore and chamber, the 5.56 mm projectile's instability under Arctic conditions, and the fact that large quantities of 5.56 mm ammunition required for immediate service were not available. In addition, the Army insisted on the inclusion of a forward assist plunger to help push the bolt into battery in the event that a cartridge failed to seat in the chamber through fouling or corrosion. The original Armalite already had a chrome-lined chamber to prevent corrosion.[citation needed] Colt on the other hand, had argued the rifle was a 'self-cleaning' design, requiring little or no maintenance. Colt, Eugene Stoner, and the U.S. Air Force believed that a forward assist needlessly complicated the rifle, adding about $4.50 to its procurement cost with no real benefit. As a result, the design was split into two variants: the Air Force's M16 without the forward assist, and for the other service branches, the XM16E1 with the forward assist.


When the XM16E1 reached Vietnam with U.S. troops in March 1965, reports of jamming and malfunctions in combat immediately began to surface. Although the M14 featured a chrome-lined barrel and chamber to resist corrosion in combat conditions (a danger learned from WWII Pacific theatre combat experience), neither the bore nor the chamber of the M16/XM16E1 was chrome-lined. Several documented accounts of troops killed by enemy fire with jammed rifles broken-down for cleaning eventually brought a Congressional investigation.[citation needed] Later investigations also cast doubt on the veracity of the original 1962 reports of the alleged stopping effectiveness of the 5.56 mm bullet, as well as criticism of inadequate penetration (in comparison to the Soviet 7.62x39mm round) when firing at enemy personnel through light cover.[citation needed]
On February 28, 1967, the XM16E1 was standardized as the M16A1. Major revisions to the design followed. The rifle was finally given a chrome-lined chamber (and later, the entire bore) to eliminate corrosion and stuck cartridges, and the rifle's recoil mechanism was re-designed to accommodate Army-issued 5.56 mm ammunition. Rifle cleaning tools and powder solvents/lubricants were issued. Intensive training programs in weapons cleaning were instituted, and a comic book style manual was circulated among the troops to demonstrate proper maintenance.[7] The reliability problems of the M16 diminished quickly, although the rifle's reputation continued to suffer.[7] Moreover, complaints about the inadequate penetration and stopping power of the 5.56 mm cartridge persisted throughout the Vietnam conflict.[citation needed]
 
I served two tours in RVN sir and the first was with Special Forces. I knew many folks that gave me first hand accounts of the M-16s initial shortcomings; hardened SF combat vets, not uncredible third party stuff. This lead to a Congressional investigation and several changes to the weapon. When I arrived in country the end of '68 this controversy was fresh in the mind of a lot of combat infantrymen.

I began in Special Ops in SF; we fired and maintained almost every American made weapon from WWII on. Later, on two successive A-teams, our CIDG were armed with those weapons. That is M-16s to carry, but .30 cal water cooled MGs and 50s on the permiters; 60 and 81 mm mortars; BARs, greese guns and you name it. We also fired and sometimes carried the weapons of our foes. As a matter of fact, we trained by having those weapons fired over our heads so we could recognize them from down range and give accurate reports when receiving fire from them.

Of the choices I had in Special Ops, I preferred the CAR-15. It was a very effective close in weapon. I carried seven magazines of 5.56 per canteen cover; five canteen covers on my web gear. I carried another 250 rounds in my ruck sack. With the M-1 or M-14; I could never carry 1,000 rounds along with all the other gear needed to go behind enemy lines for 5 to 7 days. BTW, I used the forward assist plunger on more than one occassion to clear a round.

Dave,

I don't disagree at all -- I just think it's a bit hyperbolic to lay the shortcomings of the M-16 on McNamara's lap. The M-16 program was a product of a think tank formed in the early 50s, and the resultant weapon succeeded in reaching the criteria set forth by the engineers -- which is not the necessarily the same criteria required in the field.

I've talked to many of my predecessors who served anywhere from '65 through '73. The majority had less than glowing reports about the M-16 (It gave this soldier pause when I considered how much training time was devoted to SPORTS)

My uncle who served in Korea had little use for the BAR (too heavy), but thought the M1 was the finest weapon ever made.

There are very few small arms that get consistent high marks by everyone whose ever used them.

The only two I know are John Browning's 1911 .45 caliber pistol and the M2 .50 Caliber machine gun.

Thanks for your service -- I need to get you and a few other SF buddies together over some adult beverages.
 
Dave,

I don't disagree at all -- I just think it's a bit hyperbolic to lay the shortcomings of the M-16 on McNamara's lap.

Thanks. I didn't think you disagreed, but as with all board postings, it seemed you were downplaying the reports from the field that the weapon had initial problems. Maybe there were unfounded reports, but there were many highly credible ones. It seems pretty clear, McNamara decided to go without the chrome; I'm sure he didn't make that determination alone.

For those of us that served in the field and had combat experience, it was infuriating to see pencil pushers make decisions we knew would cost lives. It was learned in WWII in the Pacific that chroming could eliminate many problems in the tropics; then, that valuable experience was thrown out and cost needless lives.

My frustration is with the McNamara mentality. Numbers, rather than lives. Of course, he never served in the military; so, he probably couldn't put those matters into proper perspective. But to risk lives for so few dollars is where I get mad.

I agree with you Dan, we can't put all the blame on him, but the buck has to stop somewhere and he headed that particular project. There were other things he did that really irritate me back then, but, I don't like to dwell on the past. We all move on with out lives or get caught in negativity. I'll just leave the thought: there were top level leaders that really identified with the guy in the field doing the dirty work; Robert McNamara didn't strike me as one of those leaders.

As I said before, I'll see what the pundits say that had a bigger picture than me. I just stuck my neck out and hoped his decisions and others with his approach didn't end things for me.

Best,

Dave
 
My frustration is with the McNamara mentality. Numbers, rather than lives. Of course, he never served in the military; so, he probably couldn't put those matters into proper perspective.

McNamara served in the Army Air Force 1943-46.
 
Thanks. I didn't think you disagreed, but as with all board postings, it seemed you were downplaying the reports from the field that the weapon had initial problems. Maybe there were unfounded reports, but there were many highly credible ones. It seems pretty clear, McNamara decided to go without the chrome; I'm sure he didn't make that determination alone.

For those of us that served in the field and had combat experience, it was infuriating to see pencil pushers make decisions we knew would cost lives. It was learned in WWII in the Pacific that chroming could eliminate many problems in the tropics; then, that valuable experience was thrown out and cost needless lives.

My frustration is with the McNamara mentality. Numbers, rather than lives. Of course, he never served in the military; so, he probably couldn't put those matters into proper perspective. But to risk lives for so few dollars is where I get mad.

I agree with you Dan, we can't put all the blame on him, but the buck has to stop somewhere and he headed that particular project. There were other things he did that really irritate me back then, but, I don't like to dwell on the past. We all move on with out lives or get caught in negativity. I'll just leave the thought: there were top level leaders that really identified with the guy in the field doing the dirty work; Robert McNamara didn't strike me as one of those leaders.

As I said before, I'll see what the pundits say that had a bigger picture than me. I just stuck my neck out and hoped his decisions and others with his approach didn't end things for me.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

There's no doubt McNamara tried to run Vietnam like Ford Motor Company. But he was a product of his time -- the Corporate Man Age. If it wasn't McNamara, it would have been some other engineer.

I think McNamara is alot like Robert Moses -- the pinnacle of an era that thought it had it All Figured Out.

Robert Moses bulldozed and paved his way through huge swaths of New York and in the process destroyed more than he built. Tens of thousands were displaced, but he thought he had the Big Picture and what he thought was best for the rest of us who didn't quite get his vision.

The legacy of Moses and McNamara proves Edmund Burke's contention that the body is wiser than the individual. Unfortunately, too many people's lives were cut short before we figured that out.

One of the strengths of the Constitution is that it usually blunts the ability of the "best and the brightest" to do "what's in our own best interest."

Eventually we learn the whiz kids were at the very least misguided. More likely they were arrogant and just plain bullheaded.

McNamara was clearly one of those.

Anyway, the tension between warriors and bureaucrats will remain as long as there is civilian control of the armed forces. But the alternative is even less appealing.
 
Thanks. I don't recall ever seeing that. Wonder what he did while he was in.

Best,

Dave
From Wiki
he entered the Armed Forces as a captain in early 1943, serving most of the war with the AAF's Office of Statistical Control. One major responsibility was the analysis of U.S. bombers' efficiency and effectiveness, especially the B-29 forces commanded by Major General Curtis LeMay in China and the Mariana Islands.[6] He left active duty in 1946 with the rank of lieutenant colonel and with a Legion of Merit.
Apparently he did within the military, as part of a military program, what he did later as a civilian in charge of the military. Funny how he is blamed for subverting the military with his civilian approach as SecDef but started out doing exactly that as part of the military establishment. Ironic.
 
From Wiki
Apparently he did within the military as part of a military program what he did later as a civilian in charge of the military. funny how he is blamed for subverting the military with his civilian approach as SecDef but started out doing exactly that as part of the military. Ironic.

It's also interesting McNamara worked for General LeMay, whose commitment to "strategic" bombing in that imprecise age was later shown to be somewhat misplaced.

LeMay was the father of SAC. McNamara later repudiated SAC's doctrine of Massive Retaliation in favor of flexible response (at a time when the Air Force was so enamoured with missle technology it didn't bother putting old fashioned guns on fighters).
 
Besides the M-16 issues, he also favored a "commonality of purpose" approach to spending for military hardware. The result was the TFX (or Tactical Fighter Experiment) project that attempted to make a version of the F-111 into a Naval fighter.
 
Besides the M-16 issues, he also favored a "commonality of purpose" approach to spending for military hardware. The result was the TFX (or Tactical Fighter Experiment) project that attempted to make a version of the F-111 into a Naval fighter.


Probably the same reason the Navy, Marines and Air Force all used the F-4 Phantom.
 
Probably the same reason the Navy, Marines and Air Force all used the F-4 Phantom.

The difference of course being, that the F-4 made a fair fighter for it's day. The F-111 could never be made into a fighter. But that didn't stop McNamara from wanting the Navy to accept it as one.
 
The difference of course being, that the F-4 made a fair fighter for it's day. The F-111 could never be made into a fighter. But that didn't stop McNamara from wanting the Navy to accept it as one.


Good point.
 
The development of the M16 is a sordid tale of the military acquisition process run amok.

The weapon designed by Eugene Stoner bore little functional resemblance to the weapon the Pentagon approved. Since it wasn't an in-house development, the military had to rub its grubby mitts all over the product in order to pronounce it acceptable. Don't forget, it wasn't just the chamber changes; they insisted upon a whole different powder and charge for the rounds. THey refused to accept the ballistics demos that showed the (relatively low power) charge designated by Stoner. The bullet was designed to fly slower and tumble when it hit the target, thus creating more damage and hitting power with a much smaller round than in the M1 or M14. Much of the fouling issue was directly linked to the change in powder composition dictated by the Pentagon.

For more on procurement nonsense, I highly recommend "National Defense" by James Fallows. It's out of print and a bit out of date (discussing, among other things, the XM-1 tank) but a very well-researched and well-written book. His discussion of the evolution of the F16 was greatly influenced by the "Fighter Mob" of Pentagon iconoclasts led by the late John Boyd. For more on that, read "Boyd- The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War" by Robert Coram.

That is all. Carry on.
 
. His discussion of the evolution of the F16 was greatly influenced by the "Fighter Mob" of Pentagon iconoclasts led by the late John Boyd. For more on that, read "Boyd- The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War" by Robert Coram.

That is all. Carry on.

Mob carries a negative connotation, but the F16, from the outside looking in, seems to have been a superb airframe and economical, compared to the F15.. Is there something about the F16 thats earthshaking and negative I should have heard about?
 
The US built the nuclear powered USS Enterprise and then, under McNamara, went back to building conventional carriers. Some, if not all of these have already been scrapped while the Big "E" is still in service. I have no basis for this information but have been told that the return to conventional power was the result of cost effectiveness studies and that in these studies, the addiitional planes that could be carried by a nuclear carrier were considered to be a negative ( initail cost and operating cost) instead of a positive. May oar may not be true
 
The US built the nuclear powered USS Enterprise and then, under McNamara, went back to building conventional carriers. Some, if not all of these have already been scrapped while the Big "E" is still in service. I have no basis for this information but have been told that the return to conventional power was the result of cost effectiveness studies and that in these studies, the addiitional planes that could be carried by a nuclear carrier were considered to be a negative ( initail cost and operating cost) instead of a positive. May oar may not be true

I think historically you will find the Kitty Hawks CV versus CVN were ordered at the same time Enterprise was. In 1960-1961 Nuclear powered ships were in the testing phase for viability.
 
For more on procurement nonsense, I highly recommend "National Defense" by James Fallows. It's out of print and a bit out of date (discussing, among other things, the XM-1 tank) but a very well-researched and well-written book. His discussion of the evolution of the F16 was greatly influenced by the "Fighter Mob" of Pentagon iconoclasts led by the late John Boyd. For more on that, read "Boyd- The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War" by Robert Coram.

Coram's book is a good read, but some of his claims have been challenged.

DoD acquisition loved to point to the XM-70 (which became the M-1) as an example of poor design, politically based design, and contractor compromise.

The M-1 Abrams remains the finest armored vehicle ever built, is still the backbone of the armored force. I was proud to have served on an -A1 and -A2 and been a member of the Armor center's Mounted Warfighting Battlespace Lab in the early 90s that investigated alternatives.

There were none.

Defense acquisition is just like business -- you don't have to be perfect, just less terrible than all your competitors.
 
The M-1 Abrams remains the finest armored vehicle ever built, is still the backbone of the armored force. I was proud to have served on an -A1 and -A2 and been a member of the Armor center's Mounted Warfighting Battlespace Lab in the early 90s that investigated alternatives.

There were none.


How about currently? How does it compare to the Leapord II which the Abrams shares its German built main gun?
 
True only of dedicated interceptors.

So the F-4 was flying intercept missions and not MIG cap over NVN? Wow, I never knew that




....and I still don't know that.
 
I can't say I really know much about it..other than the little I've read..so I can't really develop an opinion.

All I can say, is, to those that were there -- thank you.
 
Coram's book is a good read, but some of his claims have been challenged.

DoD acquisition loved to point to the XM-70 (which became the M-1) as an example of poor design, politically based design, and contractor compromise.

The M-1 Abrams remains the finest armored vehicle ever built, is still the backbone of the armored force. I was proud to have served on an -A1 and -A2 and been a member of the Armor center's Mounted Warfighting Battlespace Lab in the early 90s that investigated alternatives.

There were none.

Defense acquisition is just like business -- you don't have to be perfect, just less terrible than all your competitors.

THe XM1, as proposed and originally developed, was a disaster, comparable to the B1A bomber that Carter cancelled. The A1 and A2 mods fixed a lot of problems. It's still heavy and expensive. Fortunately, it never had to fulfill its designated mission - to block the Fulda Gap. The Abrams is a good example of our military movement to a bigger, more expensive, and fewer acquisition strategy. Lucky for us, our biggest, most-likely-to-produce-a-counterweight-to-the-M1-tank enemy, the USSR, went TU and we were left with armor supremacy. We kinda missed the boat on reactive armor though. The Russkies reallly snookered us there.

With regard to the F16, it was designed as a lightweight, inexpensive day fighter to counteract the scores of Russian jets that would be screaming over the West German battlefield. Compare it to the F14, a hulking beast. The fact that the design actually made it into service was an accomplishment of major proportions, although the victory was short lived. The F16 of today is not the F16 of yesteryear. In some ways that's good - it has a great deal of additional capability, and in these days of limited budgets, multipurpose airframes help stretch the almighty dollar.

That, of course, was a disagreement for another time. We've moved on to Gen V fighters. Darkening the skies with lightweight day fighters probably wouldn't get the job done any more, given the development of anti-air missiles.

At any rate, McNamara was a flawed man, pushing a flawed strategy, in a flawed military structure, for flawed presidents. If he had stuck to autos, he might have been considered a hero....
 
So the F-4 was flying intercept missions and not MIG cap over NVN? Wow, I never knew that




....and I still don't know that.

And you obviously didn't know the F-4 was built for the Navy and then adapted for the USAF who put a gun in it.
 
And you obviously didn't know the F-4 was built for the Navy and then adapted for the USAF who put a gun in it.

As usual, you leap to the incorrect conclusion.

The USAF didn't put a gun in it until the E model.

In other words, it flew as a fighter long before it had a gun.

There is no need for you to deny the truth Steve.
 
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I can't say I really know much about it..other than the little I've read..so I can't really develop an opinion.

All I can say, is, to those that were there -- thank you.

You are very welcome Jesse, that SOB right, wrong, or indeferent, got me over 40k flying hours, we were his com station that recieved the incomming message traffic, recoded it, and sent it in country.

I never thought I was doing anything special. never got a medal, never got shot at. got drunk a lot. had a bunch of fun, (well we thought it was)
 
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And you obviously didn't know the F-4 was built for the Navy and then adapted for the USAF who put a gun in it.

1963-1972 the BARCAP was always F-4, our escort was always a F-8 Crusader with sparrow III. (mig kill record holder)

every 4 hours they got relieved, we'd see 4 of them go before we saw our relief.
 
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