Right of way

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by WannFly, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,935
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    I had it happen both ways. Was on approach into KPIE and tower had the jet behind me go around. I've also been re-sequenced in the air based upon speed. I don't think I've ever been told to go around SO close to landing like the OP mentioned. To me that's just poor planning by the controller. You should know long before a plane is about to touch down if your sequencing is wrong. And..if it is, the jet (not the plane that's in a critical phase of flight) should be told to go around.
     
  2. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    7,920
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    The go around is not some crazy maneuver. There's no way any sane controller is going to send an airliner around for VFR traffic unless something really bad is going to happen. Also sending the VFR traffic around is a lot easier than the airliner. Just like velocity said, when you send the IFR guy around you'll have to tell approach, approach will then have to resequence the jet and bring him back around for another approach. It's way easier just to say N12345, go around, rejoin left downwind for runway XX. It happens all the time at my airport. Not really a big deal.
     
  3. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,935
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    It's happened for me, more than twice in fact. What's so bad about sending the big iron around? Its just another plane.
     
  4. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,171
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Didn't you say the airliner should have been given the go-around and the Archer allowed to complete his touch-and-go? Why isn't wake an issue there?

    So you feel two aircraft of disparate speeds maneuvering at low altitude decreases "the risk of Murphy appearing", has fewer variables, fewer issues, compared to just one aircraft maneuvering at low altitude. I think your arithmetic sucks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
    Lindberg and jordane93 like this.
  5. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    7,920
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Because it's easier to send the slower VFR traffic around. I'm actually surprised that ATC would tell the jet to go around. If they are really desperate at my field, they'll break off the VFR traffic and resequence them. They'll also stop touch and go operations.
     
  6. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,171
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    It's not that it's bad to send the airliner around, it's just better to send the Archer around.
     
  7. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,935
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    Truth be told, in the situations where a jet had to go around I felt like that guy at the supermarket checkout line that wants to buy something that needed a price check. Holding up 6 people for one stupid little item that probably costs $5.00.

    I'd honestly rather have the jet NOT get delayed. Means more flyin' time for me anyway :).
     
  8. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    3,588
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    I think what you're failing to realize that the controller sent the Archer around so that the sequence would work. Your "Murphy" situation implies that the airliner is right behind the Archer which barring buffoonery on the airliner's or controller's part, isn't the case. The separation needed between the Archer and the airliner is for the Archer to be 6,000' down the runway and airborn and/or turning to avoid conflict before the airliner crosses the threshold of the runway. The Archer doesn't have to fly all the way to the end of the runway before it starts the crosswind turn, that could happen well before depending upon the length of the runway.
     
    Matthew likes this.
  9. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    7,920
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I'll go around ever time man. I get paid by the hour. That's one more burger at McDonald's I can buy!
     
    Lindberg likes this.
  10. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    15,622
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    Gotta agree with this. I don't care so much about business jets but an airliner full of folks gets the right-of-way from me. A little bit of self interest here since they'd hardly notice running over me. Particularly in the case of a departing aircraft, they have to wait until I'm turning crosswind. If I wait on them can wait a few minutes or just lift off well before the point they rotated. Of course intentions have to be communicated. The Allegiant guys weren't much good at saying thanks but they would hurry right along. Other guys have said thanks.
     
  11. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    42,662
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    The controllers at KAPA also regularly ask for an early crosswind "when able" to move things along. It's a useful tool in their toolbelt if the spamcan driver is comfortable with it, so they can launch a waiting jet behind us that's already been given "line up and wait".

    We can almost count on the early crosswind call if we hear a jet parked on the runway behind us during our takeoff roll. Doesn't matter if we are staying in the pattern or leaving, they just want us a significant number of degrees off of runway heading so they can launch the jet. Works good.
     
    Lachlan likes this.
  12. Ryanb

    Ryanb En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,937
    Location:
    SE Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    I'm still confused here, Tim. I see you pointing out reasons why the airliner shouldn't go around, making it sound better to have the Archer go around, which is in fact what happened in the scenario in discussion. You seem to be contradicting yourself, which is why I'm not following the logic.

    Paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 are contradictions. What are you meaning to say? Or are you not sure yourself?
     
  13. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,496
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Just send both of them around and be done with it!
     
    Justin M likes this.
  14. WannFly

    WannFly Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,064
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    may be this will add clarity or confusion, but right after i read back go around, controller conveyed it back to the airliner, who said turning final. i have no idea what altitude an airliner turns final into, but i myself will have a tensed moment if i am about to land and i can see a slower moving traffic wobbling on final, trying to touch down, then go all over the place with a lot of not required rudder action and lift off, then veer right since the pilot remembered to put "more right rudder" this time
     
  15. tspear

    tspear Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    824
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    Ryan,

    I might be over analyzing it :D
    Anyway, if the tower screwed up and had the spacing between the Archer and airliner to close, then ATC should be able to determine this before short final. At the point of short final, the Archer is doing about 60 KIAS, the airliner will be going between 140-160 (generally, depends on the plane). Assuming the OP does a proper flair, stall landing, raise flaps, push in power... for a touch and go. This whole process, best case is likely a 3K foot distance. Without even counting slower speeds, that is a whole thirty seconds minimum till wheels up. And that is cutting it rather close.
    In those thirty seconds, the airliner at 150 KIAS, has traveled a minimum of 1.25 nm and descended 400ft (assume a 3 degree down slope). If ATC is telling the Archer to go around because even this minimal separation was lost, they are depending on everything else going perfectly. If there is a runway incursion by another plane (breaking the hold short line), a truck on the runway.... who knows what. If there is any issue and things do not go perfect, that airliner is going to run over the Archer. You can try and sidestep as much as you want, but unless the Archer can sidestep upwind of the drift for the wake, and you can send the airliner on an opposite path, that wake will descend on the Archer.
    Therefore, at the position on short final, the least bad choice would tell the Archer full stop and airliner go around. The Archer is much more capable of stopping at any point on the runway, it was the least capable to quickly exiting the area, and was the most susceptible to any wake disturbances.

    The reality is, the only way this is "good" for the tower is if the instructor planned it, or the separation between the airliner and the Archer was enough that the tower could vector both away from each other; e.g. tower was not "forced" into a RA type of situation.

    Tim

    Edit: Fix math error
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
    Ryanb likes this.
  16. tspear

    tspear Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    824
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    I have followed airliners multiple times when I had an Aerostar. Depending on the airport, it was between a 3 mile and 5 mile final. (3 miles is generally about 1000ft AGL for an airliner).

    Tim

    Edit: fix math
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  17. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,171
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    The least bad choice is to send the Archer around and a 3 degree down slope descends 400 feet in 1.25 miles.
     
  18. tspear

    tspear Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    824
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    Oops. That is what I get for doing it in my head! 1.25 miles is 30 seconds. I did KIAS * 5 for FPM which is 750! lol

    Tim
     
  19. WannFly

    WannFly Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,064
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
  20. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,171
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    A 3 degree down slope descends 400 feet in 1.25 miles without regard to speed.
     
  21. tspear

    tspear Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    824
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    No disagreement. I was thinking in terms of time. If I had both measurements for the same time interval it gives the correct answer (or close for a rule of thumb).
    e.g. 1.25 for 30 seconds = 2.5 miles in one minute and 750ft down. Or 750 fpm = 375 feet in 30 seconds and 1.25 miles.

    Tim
     
  22. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,171
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    A 3 degree down slope descends 400 feet in 1.25 miles without regard to time.
     
  23. Brian J

    Brian J Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bjackrian
    This was my experience except to KBJC instead of KFTG. My school doesn't normally allow students to go to any other airport until after a XC stage check, but they made an exception during the KAPA runway closure--great experience for me!
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    42,662
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Cool. Which club you flying with?
     
  25. Brian J

    Brian J Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bjackrian
    I'm at Aspen! Hoping to go for my checkride by the end of September!
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    42,662
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Nice. Some good folks there.