Ridiculous Security Procedures?

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
I did a cross-country last week to KFYV and discovered a ridiculous airport security program. As of two weeks ago you are no longer allowed access of your aircraft after hours. If you are a transit aircraft and happen to return to the airport after 8pm, you have to pay a $100 callout fee. :yikes: :mad2: This is only for the FBO worker to walk you to your plane and watch you leave. :mad2:

The FBO worker said that only pilots with HANGERS are given access cards for the gates. When I asked if there was a GA tie down area with a public gate he said not anymore. :dunno: All transit aircraft have to park at the FBO or a hanger. A news peice I found said this was to streamline airport access. This was to improve ease of access for the local pilots and workers?!? :idea: Also to align the airport with military security because the FBO got fueling rights.

Before all of this madness, the airport had a pedestrian gate that was normally wide open. The airport doesn't even have commercial service. Just GA traffic with the occasional UofA charter.

So does anyone know if this is legal? I thought since its a public use airport you had FREE and UNLIMITED access to your aircraft!?! Is this a normal thing in other parts of the country? :confused:
 
ARFlyer said:
I did a cross-country last week to KFYV and discovered a ridiculous airport security program. As of two weeks ago you are no longer allowed access of your aircraft after hours. If you are a transit aircraft and happen to return to the airport after 8pm, you have to pay a $100 callout fee. :yikes: :mad2: This is only for the FBO worker to walk you to your plane and watch you leave. :mad2:

The FBO worker said that only pilots with HANGERS are given access cards for the gates. When I asked if there was a GA tie down area with a public gate he said not anymore. :dunno: All transit aircraft have to park at the FBO or a hanger. A news peice I found said this was to streamline airport access. This was to improve ease of access for the local pilots and workers?!? :idea: Also to align the airport with military security because the FBO got fueling rights.

Before all of this madness, the airport had a pedestrian gate that was normally wide open. The airport doesn't even have commercial service. Just GA traffic with the occasional UofA charter.

So does anyone know if this is legal? I thought since its a public use airport you had FREE and UNLIMITED access to your aircraft!?! Is this a normal thing in other parts of the country? :confused:
Click to expand...

I had a post all typed up for you about a similar situation and was going to talk about a "hidden key" but some things just aren't for the Internet. :D
 
bartmc said:
I had a post all typed up for you about a similar situation and was going to talk about a "hidden key" but some things just aren't for the Internet. :D
Click to expand...

Is it under the dead flower pot or the doormat? :D
 
It just gets worse and worse... but we're all so happy, safe, and secure... and these little minor tyrannical actions, as individual actions, get ignored because they're tiny tyrannies, not big egregious ones. There's just more and more and more of them, though.

"Oh you can't complain about THAT. That's nothing! It's so MINOR."
 
If the plane was parked in a secure hangar then I could see the reason for a call out fee. On the other hand if it is tied down outside and you have paid your fuel and tie down fee then that's an entirely different deal... Personally I would place a call to [SIZE=-1]479-718-7642[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]479-718-7640[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]and hope someone answers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]If not............... my message would sound like this.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]" I need access to my aircraft ASAP and in few minutes I will get to it and you might not like how I do it.:nonod::no:.[/SIZE]

There should be a security guard on site that can let you in.
 
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denverpilot said:
It just gets worse and worse... but we're all so happy, safe, and secure... and these little minor tyrannical actions, as individual actions, get ignored because they're tiny tyrannies, not big egregious ones. There's just more and more and more of them, though.

"Oh you can't complain about THAT. That's nothing! It's so MINOR."
Click to expand...

The police around my base love to harrase us late at night. Saying we are trying to break into goverment property and causing noise complaints. Ok from what the local swamp creatures or the railroad? :rolleyes2:

The airports in the Caribbean do not understand why we have these ridiculous security programs. I was at Saba last year and wanted to get a picture of the Twin Otter take off. The one police officer told me as long as I stayed on the grass he did not care. I proceeded to have a great conversation with the airport manager next to the runway. Who so happens watchs every take off and landing for mistakes.
 
N801BH said:
If the plane was parked in a secure hangar then I could see the reason for a call out fee. On the other hand if it is tied down outside and you have paid your fuel and tie down fee then that's an entirely different deal... Personally I would place a call to the [SIZE=-1]479-718-7642[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]479-718-7640[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]and hope some answers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]If not a message would sound like this.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]" I need access to my aircraft ASAP and in few minutes I will get to it and you might not like how I do it.:nonod::no:.[/SIZE]

There should be a security guard on site that can let you in.
Click to expand...

We never hanger off base unless its for weather. So our aircraft are always sitting on the ramp. So it makes no sense to me why I can't get access to the ramp. Apparently it was the airport who started the program or so said the FBO manager.
 
ARFlyer said:
The police around my base love to harrase us late at night. Saying we are trying to break into goverment property and causing noise complaints. Ok from what the local swamp creatures or the railroad? :rolleyes2:

The airports in the Caribbean do not understand why we have these ridiculous security programs. I was at Saba last year and wanted to get a picture of the Twin Otter take off. The one police officer told me as long as I stayed on the grass he did not care. I proceeded to have a great conversation with the airport manager next to the runway. Who so happens watchs every take off and landing for mistakes.
Click to expand...

We are a society governed by fear because it's the easiest way to get the masses to do what you want. Problem with Americans is that they have traded their fear of the government and traded it for fear for their lives, and that is where the terrorists did the job they were always trained to do. It came a long way since the 60s.

To me the turning point between youth and adult is the true acceptance of the concept of futility, realizing something that you really want is impossible to reach, turn away from it, and not care. Sadly if we look at our urban societies today we find that level of adulthood in grade school children in some neighborhoods. These are the kids that we ask to deny welfare to the parents of. What is the chance that anyone will benefit from that result? We just buy into all the fear and negativity the media sells us; FMD if PT Barnum isn't ****ing himself laughing reincarnated as one of his own show's chimpanzees.

Gotta remember, the islanders have a different culture and perspective than up here, they believe you should enjoy life, not stress over it;any day the volcano may blow.

Personally I'm still confused on this great value that we put on each and every life. The best that I can figure is the purpose of life is part of a complex multi stage engine that converts one energy source to a (or multiple) information and energy formats in a large energy to information conversion facility leading the other side of the information-energy envelope barrier to our universe. As far as I can tell we could pretty much serve the same purpose as an atom of uranium to fusion reactor providing our own little recyclable meat reactor unit to do the job. Our entire universe appears to be a large process conversion engine, a self breeding, growing, expanding (go forth, be fruitful and multiply through DNA) reactor, for some concept beyond the confines of space-time that we have no ability to conceive of; one that uses information same as we use electricity. When I consider the reality of that level of insignificance, I am truly awed by what it would be that would lie beyond space-time to create such a device.
 
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It just slays me that some people don't realize that GA aircraft are sometimes used for TRANSPORTATION. This makes about as much sense as saying that you can't access your parked car after 8:00 PM when you're away from home. :mad:

I would really like to see the FAA come down hard against this kind of restriction. Isn't there some kind of prohibition on discriminating against certain types of airport users? In this case the users being discriminated against are transient pilots and their passengers.
 
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Palmpilot said:
It just slays me that some people don't realize that GA aircraft are sometimes used for TRANSPORTATION. This makes about as much sense as saying that you can't access your parked car after 8:00 PM when you're away from home. :mad:

I would really like to see the FAA come down hard against this kind of restriction. Isn't there some kind of prohibition on discriminating against certain types of airport users? In this case the users being discriminated against are transient pilots and their passengers.
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I am pretty sure they are in violation of FAA orders, I'm sure someone will enumerate what they are. I think it's sad to see airports go this way, I thought this was the stuff that AOPA was supposed to be about? Any word sent to them on this instance?
 
Sorry to hear this. It's been a few years since I've been to Drake but it's one of my favorite airports in the area. I was planning on spending a week over there in the spring to get some avionics work done. If the businesses on the field condone this, they'll feel a negative impact.
 
Careful there, unapproved disclosure of information about security procedures can be a violation of the security procedures.

:rolleyes:
 
Bob Noel said:
Careful there, unapproved disclosure of information about security procedures can be a violation of the security procedures.

:rolleyes:
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Welcome to the airport. The first rule of airport security is: you do not talk about airport security. The second rule of airport security is: you DO NOT talk about airport security!
 
Henning said:
We are a society governed by fear because it's the easiest way to get the masses to do what you want. Problem with Americans is that they have traded their fear of the government and traded it for fear for their lives, and that is where the terrorists did the job they were always trained to do. It came a long way since the 60s.

To me the turning point between youth and adult is the true acceptance of the concept of futility, realizing something that you really want is impossible to reach, turn away from it, and not care. Sadly if we look at our urban societies today we find that level of adulthood in grade school children in some neighborhoods. These are the kids that we ask to deny welfare to the parents of. What is the chance that anyone will benefit from that result? We just buy into all the fear and negativity the media sells us; FMD if PT Barnum isn't ****ing himself laughing reincarnated as one of his own show's chimpanzees.

Gotta remember, the islanders have a different culture and perspective than up here, they believe you should enjoy life, not stress over it;any day the volcano may blow.

Personally I'm still confused on this great value that we put on each and every life. The best that I can figure is the purpose of life is part of a complex multi stage engine that converts one energy source to a (or multiple) information and energy formats in a large energy to information conversion facility leading the other side of the information-energy envelope barrier to our universe. As far as I can tell we could pretty much serve the same purpose as an atom of uranium to fusion reactor providing our own little recyclable meat reactor unit to do the job. Our entire universe appears to be a large process conversion engine, a self breeding, growing, expanding (go forth, be fruitful and multiply through DNA) reactor, for some concept beyond the confines of space-time that we have no ability to conceive of; one that uses information same as we use electricity. When I consider the reality of that level of insignificance, I am truly awed by what it would be that would lie beyond space-time to create such a device.
Click to expand...

That reminded me of this -

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/589217
 
ARFlyer said:
I did a cross-country last week to KFYV and discovered a ridiculous airport security program. As of two weeks ago you are no longer allowed access of your aircraft after hours. If you are a transit aircraft and happen to return to the airport after 8pm, you have to pay a $100 callout fee. :yikes: :mad2: This is only for the FBO worker to walk you to your plane and watch you leave. :mad2:

The FBO worker said that only pilots with HANGERS are given access cards for the gates. When I asked if there was a GA tie down area with a public gate he said not anymore. :dunno: All transit aircraft have to park at the FBO or a hanger. A news peice I found said this was to streamline airport access. This was to improve ease of access for the local pilots and workers?!? :idea: Also to align the airport with military security because the FBO got fueling rights.

Before all of this madness, the airport had a pedestrian gate that was normally wide open. The airport doesn't even have commercial service. Just GA traffic with the occasional UofA charter.

So does anyone know if this is legal? I thought since its a public use airport you had FREE and UNLIMITED access to your aircraft!?! Is this a normal thing in other parts of the country? :confused:
Click to expand...

That doesn't appear to be a security procedure at all, just a means of raising revenue.
 
Sounds like this is not an uncommon policy, although at my home base in Wisconsin we have 24h coverage. After hours, the only access to the ramp would otherwise be through the terminal building, which would be secured and closed.

These policies do protect the tenants and their planes that are based on the field, and can help to prevent anyone off the street from getting access to planes that are otherwise unattended. It's not all bad. Ask anyone who's had their plane vandalized or broken into, and see what their opinion is on having beefed up security and limited access.
 
It'd be fun to be a transient and call the Sheriff for them illegally holding my property. Anyone want to have a fun weekend?

One lawsuit like that would bust up their little game after the press was notified how much it cost the local taxpayers in legal fees to defend it.

Spike, want to go for a trip? Haha. ;)
 
You people are soft on terror.

Without this kind of security we could have another attack just like January 5, 2002.
 
Henning said:
I am pretty sure they are in violation of FAA orders, I'm sure someone will enumerate what they are. I think it's sad to see airports go this way, I thought this was the stuff that AOPA was supposed to be about? Any word sent to them on this instance?
Click to expand...

There is a possibility there could be some grant assurance violations but there is not near enough information to say. Don't even know that this field took grants.

roncachamp said:
That doesn't appear to be a security procedure at all, just a means of raising revenue.
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This could also very well be the case and if so then a well worded post on airnav could steer business away from the field and FBO. Money is the universal way to say thank you or go to hell.
 
AcroBoy said:
Sounds like this is not an uncommon policy, although at my home base in Wisconsin we have 24h coverage. After hours, the only access to the ramp would otherwise be through the terminal building, which would be secured and closed.

These policies do protect the tenants and their planes that are based on the field, and can help to prevent anyone off the street from getting access to planes that are otherwise unattended. It's not all bad. Ask anyone who's had their plane vandalized or broken into, and see what their opinion is on having beefed up security and limited access.
Click to expand...

Many airports have a more reasonable level of security, by having a pedestrian gate with a combination lock, whose combination is only visible from the inside.
 
ARFlyer said:
So does anyone know if this is legal?
Click to expand...
Yes, and in some cases, it's required by law.
I thought since its a public use airport you had FREE and UNLIMITED access to your aircraft!?!
Click to expand...
You thought wrong. All it means is that anyone can use the airport. There is no guarantee of "free and unlimited" use any time you want.

Is this a normal thing in other parts of the country?
Click to expand...
Only at airports with air carrier service and a certain type of security program, but in those cases, it's required. It's also an issue in Massachusetts, where the state has its own additional security regulations.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You people are soft on terror.
Without this kind of security we could have another attack just like January 5, 2002.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the one that barely broke out a window then brought the entire country to it's knees for over a decade?

Now if you could just do the same kind of anti-terrorism routine on all the cars that kill people daily by putting fences up around everyone's driveway. Everyone has to pay to have someone else hold your hand from the front door to your car. That'll stop the redlight running terrorists...
 
AcroBoy said:
These policies do protect the tenants and their planes that are based on the field, and can help to prevent anyone off the street from getting access to planes that are otherwise unattended. It's not all bad. Ask anyone who's had their plane vandalized or broken into, and see what their opinion is on having beefed up security and limited access.
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Of course that does nothing to stop people from coming in during business hours and leaving at their leisure or from the airside.
 
As Ron notes, Massport facilities are worse. Some airports require prop locks supplied by the airport.

Around DC we have the SFRA and FRZ. If user fees ever come into being & apply to prop planes then it will completely kill small GA in the DC area since the equivalent of an IFR flight plan is required.

Agree with Hennings point about the use of fear to control the population. Been that way for a very long time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Good way to get arrested for filing a false report.
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Bull****.

I arrive during business hours and later decide to leave and you've locked up my aircraft somewhere where I can't get to it -- and have no published way to reach you after-hours where I can retrieve my property, a very expensive aircraft, I'm calling law enforcement.

There's nothing false about the report and Whoever's running the airport is a dolt.

Now if I knew I was leaving after-hours and made no effort to figure out how to get in, that's my problem.

But in this case, the airport has chosen to use card reader technology, and by *that* decision (and the fact from the OP that they won't even give *based* aircraft owners access to their aircraft), there's consequences to being that stupid.

They'd better damn well have a 24/7 number with a live body on the other end if they're locking up that tight.

This all assumes of course that it's an airport paid for with public money.

If its private, they can do whatever they want.

And I won't be visiting without doing my homework on how to get in and out. If I don't like their setup, I'll go somewhere else.

Public paid though, they'll have a Sheriff waking someone up if I can't get to my property.
 
I arrive during business hours and later decide to leave and you've locked up my aircraft somewhere where I can't get to it -- and have no published way to reach you after-hours where I can retrieve my property, a very expensive aircraft, I'm calling law enforcement.

I think this is a wonderful idea and a great way to prove a point, even if it means getting arrested. Please go ahead and report back to us on how you showed those people at the FBO how you know your rights, and how your arrest was illegal. Talk is cheap.
 
gkainz said:
Airport information page here http://www.aopa.org/airports/KFYV notes Security Directive SD-8G and links to here http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/security/brief_sd.html which starts off with:

"On December 10, 2008, the TSA issued Security Directive (SD) 1542-04-08F (SD-08F) to commercial service airports. " (emphasis mine)

I see the ASN rep does not have contact info listed on the AOPA page
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I wonder why the AOPA directory cites Security Directive 8G when the airport doesn't have commercial service. :confused:
 
ARFlyer said:
I did a cross-country last week to KFYV and discovered a ridiculous airport security program. As of two weeks ago you are no longer allowed access of your aircraft after hours. If you are a transit aircraft and happen to return to the airport after 8pm, you have to pay a $100 callout fee. :yikes: :mad2: This is only for the FBO worker to walk you to your plane and watch you leave. :mad2:
Click to expand...

Did you happen to notice if there is a way to get OUT OF the airport if you land after 8:00 PM? If so, was the requirement for calling for an escort and the $100 fee posted by the gate?
 
AcroBoy said:
I think this is a wonderful idea and a great way to prove a point, even if it means getting arrested. Please go ahead and report back to us on how you showed those people at the FBO how you know your rights, and how your arrest was illegal. Talk is cheap.
Click to expand...

Well to start with, I would have already moved my aircraft off of any airport pulling this crap or raising holy hell until they gave me a badge, which really is the whole point of this thread. Vote with your dollar.

As far as talk being cheap, try me. Lock up my airplane when I truly need it. That's the only way you'll find out what I'm capable of.

It's quite unlikely one would be arrested if the situation were handled correctly. You don't antagonize law enforcement and no where in my posting did I ever claim I would.

You want to live your life in fear of some stupid airport manager mini-tyrant who doesn't know how to do his job, feel free. See the New Braunfels thread. They're looking for some more suckers to keep using that airport. You'll never see me there.
 
AcroBoy said:
I arrive during business hours and later decide to leave and you've locked up my aircraft somewhere where I can't get to it -- and have no published way to reach you after-hours where I can retrieve my property, a very expensive aircraft, I'm calling law enforcement.

I think this is a wonderful idea and a great way to prove a point, even if it means getting arrested. Please go ahead and report back to us on how you showed those people at the FBO how you know your rights, and how your arrest was illegal. Talk is cheap.
Click to expand...

You missed the point... The FBO manager said the airport was the one who installed that bizzare and illegal security measure... The FBO claims they had no stake in the 8pm lockdown............ Altho my gut feeling is just like Steven said..... it is a revenue thing,, not a security thing so follow the money. If you pay for a call out, who gets the cash ? the FBO or airport.:dunno::dunno::dunno:;):wink2:...

My bet is the FBO gets the cash...... :yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:
 
As other posters have said, the security measures may be mandated if they accept federal funding for things like runway improvements, instrument approaches, building control towers,etc. This was the case in our little class D, where badge access was initiated, and a photo id on the badge. It also helps to prevent contractors and delivery trucks from driving across movement areas, which was a fairly common occurrence unil the badge access was initiated.

So, the limited access after hours may be a federal or state mandated requirement, not necessarily a money making scheme by the FBO or some "stupid airport manager mini tyrant"
 
N801BH said:
You missed the point... The FBO manager said the airport was the one who installed that bizzare and illegal security measure... The FBO claims they had no stake in the 8pm lockdown............ Altho my gut feeling is just like Steven said..... it is a revenue thing,, not a security thing so follow the money. If you pay for a call out, who gets the cash ? the FBO or airport.:dunno::dunno::dunno:;):wink2:...

My bet is the FBO gets the cash...... :yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:
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If it is truly for security, then it seems that the police officer would be able to escort you to your plane. I'm sure they have access, because they would likely be called by ATC if an incoming plane failed to close their flight plan, and would need access in case of other emergencies.
 
AcroBoy said:
I arrive during business hours and later decide to leave and you've locked up my aircraft somewhere where I can't get to it -- and have no published way to reach you after-hours where I can retrieve my property, a very expensive aircraft, I'm calling law enforcement.
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Calling them is fine -- and they'll tell you there's nothing they can do about it. Filing a theft report when you know the airplaen has not really been stolen is another story entirely.
 
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