Reviving a barn find PA-20

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ackerman

Filing Flight Plan
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ackerman
While searching for my first plane to buy, I came across a Piper PA-20 that seems to check all my boxes (tailwheel, moderately speedy and can haul slightly more than a backpack in addition of two people). It's a barn find that will need some work as it hasn't flown since 2019 (at least going off the last entry in the logs).

I'm curious from any thoughts on experienced A&Ps that worked with Pipers. Would this be doable or a completely lost cause? I know that I will have to throw money at it, but I would like it to not be an unholy amount of money (at least in aviation terms).

Any referrers for pre-buys in the Missouri area would also be greatly appreciated :)
 
That plane needs a complete rebuild. You will need all new fabric and most likely an engine overhaul.

Plus there is no paperwork on the PA 22/20 conversion nor is there any paperwork on the disk brakes.

Figure if you do the work you will have $60k+++ in it just on the rebuild, not including STC’s and other items.
 
PA-20 is an honest plane. Good hauling due to the hershey bar wing. Simple to work on. You want an O-320 for 3 pax or 4 light people, or kids. The O-290 planes are underpowered. The first thing is to find a fabric guy nearby who is willing to take it all the way. It may need extensive fabric or it may just need flight controls, or maybe just fuselage. The fabric expert is critical. Engine, prop, metal tube frame, gear, fuel systems are all easy for a decent A&P, but the fabric guy is the key to success.

If I were in my 30s or 40s, and had an itch to do a refurb, I would highly consider a PA-20, or a Stinson 108-2. If you are handy, you can work under direct supervision of the A&P. I have a vintage wood plane, and although I'm handy, I have no experience in repairing wood. But - I found the guy I needed, flew him in for 4 days, and we worked together to do the wood repairs, and testing needed. It was well worth the flight and labor cost to see an experts hands making repairs that I would not tackle on my own ever.

All the short wing Pipers are solid planes, the PA-20 is maybe the top of the heap. Go for it!
 
MORE info needed. There may be an issue which is why it hasn’t flown in 6 years. You really need a knowledgeable A& P to check it out. Ideally the IA that would do the Annual Inspection. I don’t understand the basis for Doc’s comments but the A&P can form a strategy. One place to begin is with a
Title Search investigation if there are outstanding liens that can break a deal. This costs somewhere around $100.

Short Wings are decent aircraft BUT you have to learn their ways. They do not fly like a Cessna. Sink rate control and dealing with crosswinds on paved
runways are items your CFI will need to focus on. If you have no Tailwheel time spend a few bucks and see if you are on the road to feeling comfortable. A load hauler it’s not; but 1 or 2 people it will do fine.

If it is really a project you may want to proceed under A& P supervision. It’s not a bad idea to do “ paperwork “ as you go along and not wait till completion. Same with finances. Log your time toward the A& P as you go
and maybe that may help finance aviation activities.

IMHO fabric is not as much of an issue as the underlying structure. It it was protected properly it will last a long time. One area for immediate investigation is the rear lower longerons for rust. The logs should reveal if
SB 819 as well. It can be difficult finding engine parts for any of the powerplants that may be installed here.

More info needed.
 
Look at the pics in the ad. The registration number is there.

Go to CARES and pull the airworthiness files. First thing you notice is this is a PA22 and the pictures show a PA 20. So somewhere this got converted. There are no 337’s on file for the conversion. It also has disk brakes. No 337 for that either.

I’ve done a STC conversion on a PA22 to PA20. It’s critical to get the gear attach lugs perfectly straight, if not the plane is squirrelly on the ground and becomes a handful. No way I would take a barn find and recover then go fly. I’d want to go through and confirm everything, plus on this one you may discover it was done without the benefit of the STC (home grown conversion)

This plane is tube and fabric. I wouldn’t be surprised to find some tube damage.

Depending on the recover system used will determine the cost. Now the new owner needs someone to either do the recover or learn to do it. Mistakes drive up the cost.

The engine has been sitting. Best to figure a complete rebuild. Carb probably needs rebuild plus mags. The cost keeps going up.

I estimate for someone who knows what they are doing about 1200 to 1500 hours to do this.

Now, look at what flying examples are selling for.
 
For your first airplane, I would want something in annual and in as good a condition as you can afford. That learning curve is expensive and steep enough as it is. Of course, that depends where the "fun" is for you. If the primary fun is flying and you have it in your head that this is a cheap way to get an airplane (not sure that it qualifies as a "barn find" if it has been flying within the last decade), I'd advise you to run screaming in the opposition direction. If the fun is in the process of completely renovating a project plane and you're happy to spend a pile of cash and the next couple of years doing that instead of flying, then maybe this is worth considering.

For me, I wouldn't touch this with someone else's 18-foot pole as a first plane.
 
PA-20's are awesome airplanes when well maintained. 2019 also isn't terribly long ago if it was inside a hangar/barn. Do you have any details on when the fabric was last re-covered, and if the engine was pickled at all prior to sitting?

Also be sure to refer to the two type club forums (ShortWingPipers . org and Short Wing Piper Club). I own a '55 PA-22-150 and those two resources are full of an incredible amount of information, with lots of folks willing to help others out. I'd ask in the .org one if anyone knows of someone near it to do a pre-buy inspection. Be sure to tag along so you can learn more about these awesome airplanes.
 
I will echo the comments that if you want a project airplane then it is fine. But if you want a airplane to fly buy something you can fly home. You will still spend a lot of money on it upgrading, fixing and making it the way you want it. Like mentioned just owning an airplane has a pretty steep learning curve even with out the extra work of trying to get it airworthy. And the frustration that it might take one or two years before you have a flyable airplane, if you have enough money to get it going and keep it going.
While I like working on airplanes, I like flying them more.
At one point before I owned a flying airplane, I had a kit plane I was slowly working on and two project airplanes I was working on making into 1 flying airplane. When I bought the 3rd project airplane it was due for some fabric work but flyable. I learned that a flying airplane has plenty of project things I can do to it. I ended up selling everything except the flying airplane and then proceeded to do a complete rebuild on it. I flew it for a year, spent a year rebuilding it, Flew it another year before selling and buying another airplane that I flew for 20 years and did a lot of work on as well. Helped that it was an experimental which let me do more unsupervised work on it.

I will agree sitting inside 7 years isn't that long. But I would recommend getting the engine thoughly checked out, it won't be cheap to validate the cam isn't corroded and might last less than 20 hours. This has been the common issue I have seen with aircraft sitting for a long time. Some work just fine, but some also are in for major engine work within 20 hours or so.

Brian
 
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More of the "engine sitting for so long it must be corroded." But just sitting does not do anywhere near the damage from ground-running it, That introduces a lot of water into the crankcase, as vapor blown past the rings of a cold engine, and that's the water that mixes with the oil and forms acids that eat the engine. Atmospheric moisture is a very minor player here.

My Jodel sat in a swampy area for over a decade before I restored it. I took the engine apart and found very little corrosion, certainly not enough to matter. Magman has had a similar experience. As a mechanic I encountered some badly corroded engines, all of them victims of owners ground-running them, thinking that they were keeping the oil spread around so corrosion wouldn't happen. The engine manufacturers warn against this sort of thing, but owners don't read that stuff. Lots of mechanics don't read it, either.
 
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Doc's comments make more sense after the second post detailed the forensics he did and the knowledge he has. But completely unclear how he knew what to look for based on OP's post! Based on his comments, unless this was your father's plane and has sentimental value once restored, move along. No way that can be a first plane for someone who doesn't even yet know what they don't know. Free is probably overpriced.
 
I have experience with short wing and long wing pipers.

I saw the same ad as I am looking for a PA22 to restore. With FAA airworthiness and registration records online (CARES) it’s fairly easy to do o some research before diving in.
 
Thanks all, this is great information!

For some more background. I got my PPL in a tailwheel and ~80% of my hours are actually in various tailwheel models, so I'm quite familiar with handling docile to ones that are a little hot. I'm also part of a flying club, so I fly regularly. But I have been looking at acquiring a fairly good all around plane that I can make truly mine. I don't mind a project if it's not going to be "unreasonable". I would rather putt in a little work to keep some of these classics birds flying in the air (doing the fabric myself with A&P supervision does sound like something I would enjoy actually). Otherwise I would just think about building a Kitfox, RV-7, etc from scratch.

Doc, thanks for all that information. I didn't know that you could look into if a plane has all the 337s attached to it or not. I'll probably keep my eyes peeled for another PA-20 or similar out there.
 
Just in case you wanted to log time toward an A& P.

My FSDO will not accept building or maintenance time on a home built Experimental.. They will on a PA-20 or other certified type. Previously they
had done so.
 
Magman said:
My FSDO will not accept building or maintenance time on a home built Experimental.. They will on a PA-20 or other certified type. Previously they had done so.
Click to expand...
I believe the FAA reversed that new policy several years ago and documented E/AB build time again can be used to meet the 65.77 experience requirements again.
 
This was their policy as of a few weeks ago in reference to a Mosquito

helicopter. Any idea of the reference they use?
 
Thank you. It seems like someone is relying on memory rather than

currency. It’s just one piece of the “ portfolio” but still significant.
 
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