Retaking the written

azure

azure

Final Approach
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azure
Those of you who have been following my quest for the IR (mostly posted in the Mechanics Bench thread) know that I have two days left to pass my checkride before my written expires. My CFII insists on sitting in on the oral part, and therefore also insists on vetting any DPE I might choose ahead of time. As of last week he was still no closer to finding an examiner that meets with his approval than when I started doing checkride prep with him last month. The two names that come up most frequently around here he has strong opinions against. Though he doesn't know it yet, I plan to fire him on Wednesday (unless he has already pulled off a miracle and just hasn't told me, which is unlikely since he doesn't even return my phone calls now). Once Fall classes start I will not have time to focus on getting ready, so I now have one month to retake the written, get signed off, and take and (hopefully) pass the practical.

My main question now is what source to use to study for the written. I know a lot of people hate them, but I have the Kings computer-based video DVD set and really didn't have a problem with them. But my set is from 2008 and is effectively obsolete, since the FAA has overhauled the question bank extensively since I took it the first time and is now including material that my set doesn't even cover. And the new version is pricey, listing at $279. I know I'm going to have to shell out some extra money to get this done but before I do, I'd like to know what study materials others recommend.

Oh, I also have the ASA Prepware, dated 2010 but really from 2009... but at least ASA updates their test bank with whatever questions the FAA releases into the public domain. Unfortunately the computer I installed it on originally bit the dust a few months after I took the written the first time, and I lost the booklet with the activation code on it. :(
 
I mostly used software to pass my written. I spent the most time with an iphone app by Dauntless Software. Their desktop app is great as well, but was PC only...so I had to run it in a virtual machine.

That said, what I really wanted to tell you is that you're making the right choice with your CFII. You probably should have fired him the first time that he told you of his "plan". That's ridiculous. All instructors want to feel confident that their students are going to pass...but come on. He shouldn't put you up if he's not confident in you. It can ding him if you get pink slipped, but what he's trying to do is just crazy.
 
The sad part is, I knew all along that he wanted to choose the DPE I would go to. I just never imagined that I would get into this position because of that. I do agree with him on a lot of things -- for example I would never take a checkride with a FSDO inspector for exactly the reasons he gives. And I don't have a problem with my CFII sitting in on my oral. I think it's a good thing that he looks out for his students, and knowing that he's had students pink slipped unfairly (in his opinion) I can understand and respect his cautious attitude. But there are limits, and forcing me to retake the written when at least one DPE that he has no personal experience with and only hearsay reasons not to choose was available the whole time goes way beyond mine.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I don't understand how any CFI, who is your employee, has any say in picking an examiner. :dunno:
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What does their being my employee have to do with whether they have a say in picking my DPE?

Who is in a better position to know that an examiner has a history of asking people to do maneuvers not in the PTS and then busting them when they don't perform adequately on said maneuvers?

Of course I know that I could take it to the FSDO and probably get their designation pulled if a DPE did that to me. But I'd much rather not go to someone like that in the first place.
 
azure said:
What does their being my employee have to do with whether they have a say in picking my DPE?

Who is in a better position to know that an examiner has a history of asking people to do maneuvers not in the PTS and then busting them when they don't perform adequately on said maneuvers?

Of course I know that I could take it to the FSDO and probably get their designation pulled if a DPE did that to me. But I'd much rather not go to someone like that in the first place.
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It's your ticket. Your call. Just a hypothetical question: How would an unethical DE write up your bust for not performing a maneuver not included in the PTS???
 
Threefingeredjack said:
It's your ticket. Your call. Just a hypothetical question: How would an unethical DE write up your bust for not performing a maneuver not included in the PTS???
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That's a good question. I don't know how it was done. But since my CFII told me it happened to someone we both know, so I could easily verify or disprove it, I doubt very much that it's untrue.

I'm really surprised you are making an issue of this. How did you pick your DPE? Did your CFI really just tell you to go to the FAA's list and pick one at random? I know that when I went for my private checkride, my CFI basically picked my DPE too. (Actually he gave me a choice of two, with a strong recommendation of one over the other.) I was at a flight school at a field a short distance away from home today asking for names of local DPEs that they use. A primary student at the school was getting ready for his checkride and waiting to learn who his DPE would be. It sounded as if the school was going to pick his DPE too. My impression has always been that's the way it's usually done.

Sure when push comes to shove it's the student's choice, but come on. If you needed surgery, wouldn't you defer to a doctor's recommendation for a surgeon if you had no other reliable info to base your choice on?
 
azure said:
I'm really surprised you are making an issue of this. How did you pick your DPE?
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Not making an issue of it, I am just unfamiliar with the process. I didn't pick an examiner because I got my training as a USCG aviator. It is just that you seemed to disagree with the instructor and made it sound like he had a veto over your wishes. Seems like an odd way to go about it.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Not making an issue of it, I am just unfamiliar with the process. I didn't pick an examiner because I got my training as a USCG aviator. It is just that you seemed to disagree with the instructor and made it sound like he had a veto over your wishes. Seems like an odd way to go about it.
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No, I don't have a strong opinion about any of them. He does, and he knows more about them than I do. The only thing I disagree with is that his indecision should force me to retake the written. I'd rather take a chance on an unknown DPE. But the only time I said, if you don't have any better ideas let's go with X, he came back with the story I alluded to about X, and promised that he would get me in with someone by the end of the month. Apparently he's not lived up to that promise, and that's why he's about to be history.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about study materials... I've already decided against trying to run Parallels or Boot Camp on my MacBook Pro so Dauntless is out. I hope some folks have other ideas. Meanwhile I'm going to scour my place again for that ASA booklet...
 
When you have one person's (your CFII) opinion that apparently all the DPEs in your area are "bad"... I think it's in your best interest to at least go ask a couple other CFII's who they would recommend as a DPE.

DPEs depend on the respect of the CFIs in the community they serve. If your CFII's perception of the DPEs is significanly different than his peer instructors, it probably says more about your CFII than it does the DPEs.
 
azure said:
My main question now is what source to use to study for the written. I know a lot of people hate them, but I have the Kings computer-based video DVD set and really didn't have a problem with them. But my set is from 2008 and is effectively obsolete, since the FAA has overhauled the question bank extensively since I took it the first time and is now including material that my set doesn't even cover. And the new version is pricey, listing at $279. I know I'm going to have to shell out some extra money to get this done but before I do, I'd like to know what study materials others recommend.
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While I'm not necessarily recommending them, I believe King Schools had a trade in program where you can get the current version of their course for half off if you have an out of date version. If you're going with them, it's worth calling to see if they still do that.
 
If you just want to pass the test, use sheppard Air. Cheap ($40), and much more accurate questions than you will find elsewhere...

If you want a ground school, I would use King.
 
TMetzinger said:
When you have one person's (your CFII) opinion that apparently all the DPEs in your area are "bad"... I think it's in your best interest to at least go ask a couple other CFII's who they would recommend as a DPE.
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I've already asked two and am in the process of asking a third who is based a little farther away. The first two recommended the same two DPEs. That's not surprising since they really are the only two that work in the immediate area. I'm waiting to hear from the school that's based out of OZW, a few miles west.

DPEs depend on the respect of the CFIs in the community they serve. If your CFII's perception of the DPEs is significanly different than his peer instructors, it probably says more about your CFII than it does the DPEs.
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The ones I've spoken to don't have strong opinions either way about the two local DPEs. One hasn't taught in 2-3 years and was somewhat out of the loop. The other thought that either of the two would be okay but seemed to favor the one I'm calling "DPE Y" (DPE X is the one who failed my CFII and my mutual acquaintance on a non-PTS maneuver). But my instructor thought Y was not the greatest choice either.

I'm really not sure how that reflects on him. The truth is that I'm his first instrument student in about two years. He makes his living doing primary instruction.
 
\__[Ô]__/;953619 said:
While I'm not necessarily recommending them, I believe King Schools had a trade in program where you can get the current version of their course for half off if you have an out of date version. If you're going with them, it's worth calling to see if they still do that.
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I didn't know that! Of course I will call them then... thanks.
 
ja_user said:
If you just want to pass the test, use sheppard Air. Cheap ($40), and much more accurate questions than you will find elsewhere...

If you want a ground school, I would use King.
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I could use a little ground school on the new areas. Yeah, that's why I chose them in the first place, they are good teachers. If I had to pay full price for the update though, I'm not sure it would be worth it. Since the new stuff is pretty much weather related, Scott D.'s workshops are a lot more cost effective than the Kings I'm sure.
 
Remind your CFI that his delay will cost you another $150 and ask if he's willing to pay for it.
 
murphey said:
Remind your CFI that his delay will cost you another $150 and ask if he's willing to pay for it.
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That's part of the plan. It's a rhetorical question of course, and when he says f--- no (doh!), I'll hand him back his Francis hood.
 
Boy, what a mess!

There are DPE's in this area that I have heard of that have taken a whole day for a private checkride (more than one occasion). I think that is ridiculous and wouldn't want to go to them. When I took my IR checkride, there was a DPE that my CFII was used to working with and thus knew what he would be looking for. That is a nice arrangement. I am SOO thankful that I didn't have to go through what you are going through. Good luck!

Also, good luck with getting King to give you a break on an update. I think they will do that for you and that would probably be the best route. I used their DVD's and was impressed. They have trained a lot of pilots. The only problem I had was staying awake!
 
Of course the best thing for you and your CFII is if you can go ahead and take the ride before your written expires.
 
The chances of that are slim to none unless he got me an appointment on Friday and just didn't tell me. Since I heard him in the pattern yesterday and I'm sure he heard me, I'd say Slim just left town.

I'm still looking for the ASA key. King is good but I bought ASA because they didn't have an unlimited number of complete exams (I think it was only 3, or maybe not even that).

And Stacey, if I had finished up last summer I would have had that kind of "nice arrangement" too. I think a lot of this is my CFII trying to rebuild what he had before Z was de-designated, and I'm in the crossfire. :mad:
 
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Update: at 1400 I called King and learned that they will either send me the new DVDs for $139.50 plus shipping, or let me switch to the online version for the same price (minus shipping of course). The only catch is I have to send them my old DVDs + binder. I went with the second option so that I could get the key today.

At 1430 I finally found my ASA booklet with the activation code, in the middle of a pile I had already searched three times.

At 1515 my CFII finally returned my call from Saturday. He doesn't have a date for me, but said he'd be okay if I wanted to call DPE X and see if they could get me in tomorrow. He basically conceded that he's struck out and whatever I want to do is fine.

So now I have to decide if I want to put myself through a last minute checkride with an examiner who is known for bad busts, or go through with retaking the written and face the checkride a little later, with a little less pressure. Another factor: the forecast for tomorrow is for scattered TRW.

Damn this last minute BS. :mad:
 
Let us know what you decide. Either way, congrats in advance for getting your Instrument.
 
What's a "bad bust"? If its something outside of the PTS or things you're supposed to know, report it.

Otherwise, methinks you're doing a great job of psyching yourself out and your CFI isn't making even the slightest effort to manage that.

Either you're ready for the ride or you aren't. You may not be in the correct emotional state to judge that completely, but your instructor being all hands-off about it, really sucks.
 
I keep rehearsing how the call would go:

"Hi, is this DPE X? I'm an instrument student studying with CFII W, and was wondering if you would be available to do my checkride tomorrow?"

"Tomorrow is a little short notice, but I do have a slot available on, let's see..."

"No, I'm sorry, it would really have to be tomorrow."

"Why tomorrow?"

"Because my written expires at the end of the month."

"Then why didn't you call me last week?"

What do I say to that? I can't exactly tell this person that he was W's very last choice, and if I accept total responsibility for it then even IF X can squeeze me in somehow, I'm going into the exam with a strike against me for being someone with very suspect time management skills. :(

And yes Nate, W is very hands off. It's his style. He's the same way in the airplane, his "teaching" is all in the debrief. As far as technique is concerned, he has coached me a little but to be honest I'm largely self-taught.

And you're right, I'm not really a very good judge at this point of whether I'm ready. The last time we flew I had a very hard time in turbulence, and misremembered the MDA on a LOC approach -- neglected to double check the plate, which I really needed to do since I was getting the crap beat out of me. That was probably largely due to rust from the hiatus with my beacon (12 days), and also it being the first time he failed my HSI. But I don't think I'm ever any better than just "within PTS".
 
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How about a little story....
(true story - exaggerated a little to make the point)

Me: When am I going to solo?
CFI: I'll let you know when
Me: When am I going to solo?
CFI: I'll let you know when
....
(some time later)
Me: When am I going to solo?
CFI: When you show me you're a pilot
Me: (thinking...)
(some time later)
...
CFI: I'm getting out of the airplane. Are you ready to solo?
Me: Yes
CFI: Then you're ready
 
azure said:
That's a good question. I don't know how it was done. But since my CFII told me it happened to someone we both know, so I could easily verify or disprove it, I doubt very much that it's untrue.

I'm really surprised you are making an issue of this. How did you pick your DPE? Did your CFI really just tell you to go to the FAA's list and pick one at random? I know that when I went for my private checkride, my CFI basically picked my DPE too. (Actually he gave me a choice of two, with a strong recommendation of one over the other.) I was at a flight school at a field a short distance away from home today asking for names of local DPEs that they use. A primary student at the school was getting ready for his checkride and waiting to learn who his DPE would be. It sounded as if the school was going to pick his DPE too. My impression has always been that's the way it's usually done.

Sure when push comes to shove it's the student's choice, but come on. If you needed surgery, wouldn't you defer to a doctor's recommendation for a surgeon if you had no other reliable info to base your choice on?
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There really is only one DPE in our immediate area, so everyone uses him.
He is FAIR though and really never heard a CFI say a bad thing about him.
For my PP and for my IR, the CFI's just told me I was "signed off" and I could go where ever I pleased to take the checkride.
Was actually recommended to go to the FSDO if the local DPE couldn't get me scheduled in.
Just my .02, I always figured they wouldn't sign me off if I wasn't ready so they didn't care who I took the test with. They were confident in what they had taught and my ability to do what was necessary.
I passed both rides the first time.
 
I don't know how far you are willing to travel for your exam, and I know you couldn't get an exam tomorrow but Bob Buttleman in Traverse City was my examiner for both private and instrument. I will say he was nothing if not fair. The winds were really fluky when I did the ride and the plane would be climbing at 1000ft/min with the nose down and the throttle pulled back. Then the next minute we would be dropping just as fast with full throttle nose up. I finally commented that I was doing a pretty terrible job of holding altitude and he calmly said: I know, but I can see you are trying hard to keep it there. He has been an examiner for a long time and I have never heard any bad things about him. His phone is on the FAA website under examiners in the Grand Rapids FSDO area.(gl09)
http://av-info.faa.gov/DesigneeResultsByFSDO.asp

Barb
 
I've had two check rides and chose my DPE for both of them. The guy for my private ride had a reputation as a bad a$$. I enjoyed my ride with him and did well.

The guy for my IR was chosen mostly for convenience of getting the ride done before SnF. I had no idea if he had any kind of reputation. He did yell at me the whole time, which I later deduced was his was of trying to see if I would throw my hands up and quit.
 
Thanks everyone, especially Barb for the specific recommendation for Bob Buttleman (TVC is a little far though).

Another question: 61.35(a)(1) requires that you need an endorsement before taking the written. It doesn't say how recent that endorsement has to be. However, my endorsement from my current CFII is (obviously) more than two years old. Is it still valid or do I need a fresh one?

If I need another endorsement I probably shouldn't fire him. Yes I could get the endorsement from King Schools, but that means I have to go through their entire course again instead of just brushing up and focusing on the areas where they've brought in new material or made major changes.
 
All a DPE is, is a box checker, if you can do whats in the box he checks it, if most of the boxes have checks and none of the bad boxes have checks you pass.

My concern would be if you were taught worth a damn.

I've seen people who can pass the DPE IFR ride but have little business in IMC, NOW if your CFI is this nervous about even sending you off then I might want to get another CFIs opinion on what I was taught.

I've dealt with many DPEs, I've done rides with the FSDO, if you know your chit it's no big deal, if you suck the big one you're going to fail (which is a good thing) and if you know your stuff you will pass (which is also a good thing).

Just go take the ride with the first available DPE and be done with it.



In the future, it can be hard to find a good CFI, best bet look for a few things

1) easy thing to see, is he a gold seal (this mean the FAA symbol on the top corner of his CFI ticket will be gold), if so he can at least probably get you to pass as he has managed a 80% student pass ratio with at least 10 students and is also a ground instructor. This has to be applied for and hints that the guy is always trying to add on to his repertoire.

2) odd ball rating, a pilot who always want to learn new things (like gliders, gyrocopters, sea planes etc) is a good person to learn from

3) real aviation experience, how far has he flown, what other types of aircraft has he flown, what other aviation experience does he have aside from CFIing, etc

4) How many days a week does he fly, if he's not a full time aviator (part time CFI part time charter, full time CFI, etc), then you are investing too much money to play with a hobby pilot.
 
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One Short said:
I don't know how far you are willing to travel for your exam, and I know you couldn't get an exam tomorrow but Bob Buttleman in Traverse City was my examiner for both private and instrument. I will say he was nothing if not fair. The winds were really fluky when I did the ride and the plane would be climbing at 1000ft/min with the nose down and the throttle pulled back. Then the next minute we would be dropping just as fast with full throttle nose up. I finally commented that I was doing a pretty terrible job of holding altitude and he calmly said: I know, but I can see you are trying hard to keep it there. He has been an examiner for a long time and I have never heard any bad things about him. His phone is on the FAA website under examiners in the Grand Rapids FSDO area.(gl09)
http://av-info.faa.gov/DesigneeResultsByFSDO.asp

Barb
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Your experience squares with ~10 others that I know have gone to Bob. One
Of them was pink slipped, but she said that she deserved the pink.


Given your sched, have you consider one of the puppy mills? I think American flyers is still operating near Chicago.
 
Hmmm Azure... This is the last day and I suspect you are going to have to redo the written now..
Tell you what... First, the FAA/FSDO is not the enemy (in this case)... Toddle over to the FSDO and have an informal chat with them... It may be eye opening for both parties... They are just as interested in having you succeed as you are... That may be a surprise given all the times they shoot themselves - and us - in the foot, but promotion of aviation is one of their mandates from the Congress...
BTW, they have a list of DPE here:
http://av-info.faa.gov/DesigneeResultsByFSDO.asp

And contact them here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/grr/contact/
 
Hi everyone,

1) Yes I'm going to have to redo the rewritten. Was there ever really a question about that? Would YOU call up a DPE and ask for an urgent checkride the very next day because your written is expiring? How could anyone with a shred of dignity do something like that? If W had come to me and said, Liz, your only shot is DPE X, do you want me to call him and explain the situation and see if he's available tomorrow, that would have been one thing. But that wasn't the deal. The deal was, Liz, I struck out, the ball's in your court, if YOU want to call up X and schedule a checkride tomorrow it's fine with me. Sorry, no, thanks but no thanks, too little too late, it's a non starter.

2) Denny O, what you're saying about the FAA may be correct but it is really contrary to what nearly everyone else has told me (another "Denny" is the only exception to that, and I think HE is really a exceptional, standout inspector but he may not have a lot of company) and also contrary to my own experience this winter with the Rochester FSDO after my diversion for a fuel gauge glitch that led to a (fortunately brief) grilling over the phone by an ASI. In particular, it contradicts what another frequent poster on this board wrote, when he went for a FSDO checkride and the inspectors went over his plane with a fine-toothed comb looking for an excuse to ground it. They didn't find one, good for him and good on his mechanic, but I won't put myself and my airplane in that position. My CFII says that if the FAA wants to find something unairworthy about an airplane, they probably can no matter how diligent you and your mechanic are. That's one area where I suspect he's not far from the truth.

3) My CFII is (or was) a "Gold Seal" instructor. He certainly has a high pass rate and wants to keep it that way. I think that was part of the problem here, he's concerned about his pass/fail record to the point of paralysis. He has a lot of experience and is not a part-timer by any means. That is part of why I chose him in the first place. But he does not teach many instrument students, the vast majority of his business is primary training. So I didn't really have a lot to go on, other than a recommendation from his last student who liked his hands off style a lot. But I am not much impressed with his instrument teaching, and ESPECIALLY I am not impressed with his not having the faintest idea how to do partial panel in my airplane. A week ago was the very first (and so far only) time he failed my HSI, and that was only because I asked him to, based on another pilot's experience with a similar panel whose DPE failed her HSI on the IR checkride. Even so, he at first tried to avoid it, saying "they're not going to fail your HSI, just your AI". I was the one who said, failing just the AI is too easy.

4) Having said all that, I'm really inclined now to not fire W. I think I need to just hold my nose, suck it up, and do what I can to make the best of a bad situation. I do not really know of a good alternative CFII locally and I can't really afford PIC or to pay for an instructor to come to me. I suspect I will need a fresh endorsement to retake the written and I'm pretty sure W will do at least THAT for me without forcing me to redo ground school. That doesn't mean I'll go off into hard IMC the day after the checkride thinking I know everything there is to know. I'm not that stupid. It will be slow, easy steps, more training with a better instructor if I can find one and probably an IPC or two. But at least I won't have to retake the checkride... or the @*!$ written yet AGAIN.
 
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Liz,

I hope your luck improves soon. You've been forced to endure more "nose-holding" and frustrations in a year than most of us encounter in a lifetime.

azure said:
Hi everyone,

1) Yes I'm going to have to redo the rewritten. Was there ever really a question about that? Would YOU call up a DPE and ask for an urgent checkride the very next day because your written is expiring? How could anyone with a shred of dignity do something like that? If W had come to me and said, Liz, your only shot is DPE X, do you want me to call him and explain the situation and see if he's available tomorrow, that would have been one thing. But that wasn't the deal. The deal was, Liz, I struck out, the ball's in your court, if YOU want to call up X and schedule a checkride tomorrow it's fine with me. Sorry, no, thanks but no thanks, too little too late, it's a non starter.

2) Denny O, what you're saying about the FAA may be correct but it is really contrary to what nearly everyone else has told me (another "Denny" is the only exception to that, and I think HE is really a exceptional, standout inspector but he may not have a lot of company) and also contrary to my own experience this winter with the Rochester FSDO after my diversion for a fuel gauge glitch that led to a (fortunately brief) grilling over the phone by an ASI. In particular, it contradicts what another frequent poster on this board wrote, when he went for a FSDO checkride and the inspectors went over his plane with a fine-toothed comb looking for an excuse to ground it. They didn't find one, good for him and good on his mechanic, but I won't put myself and my airplane in that position. My CFII says that if the FAA wants to find something unairworthy about an airplane, they probably can no matter how diligent you and your mechanic are. That's one area where I suspect he's not far from the truth.

3) My CFII is (or was) a "Gold Seal" instructor. He certainly has a high pass rate and wants to keep it that way. I think that was part of the problem here, he's concerned about his pass/fail record to the point of paralysis. He has a lot of experience and is not a part-timer by any means. That is part of why I chose him in the first place. But he does not teach many instrument students, the vast majority of his business is primary training. So I didn't really have a lot to go on, other than a recommendation from his last student who liked his hands off style a lot. But I am not much impressed with his instrument teaching, and ESPECIALLY I am not impressed with his not having the faintest idea how to do partial panel in my airplane. A week ago was the very first (and so far only) time he failed my HSI, and that was only because I asked him to, based on another pilot's experience with a similar panel whose DPE failed her HSI on the IR checkride. Even so, he at first tried to avoid it, saying "they're not going to fail your HSI, just your AI". I was the one who said, failing just the AI is too easy.

4) Having said all that, I'm really inclined now to not fire W. I think I need to just hold my nose, suck it up, and do what I can to make the best of a bad situation. I do not really know of a good alternative CFII locally and I can't really afford PIC or to pay for an instructor to come to me. I suspect I will need a fresh endorsement to retake the written and I'm pretty sure W will do at least THAT for me without forcing me to redo ground school. That doesn't mean I'll go off into hard IMC the day after the checkride thinking I know everything there is to know. I'm not that stupid. It will be slow, easy steps, more training with a better instructor if I can find one and probably an IPC or two. But at least I won't have to retake the checkride... or the @*!$ written yet AGAIN.
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Liz, you do NOT need a fresh endorsement to retake the knowledge exam. Just bring in the expired one and the original endorsement, and you probably won't even need the original endorsement. I had the same issue with my commercial. Of course, then the secondone expired!
 
gprellwitz said:
Liz, you do NOT need a fresh endorsement to retake the knowledge exam. Just bring in the expired one and the original endorsement, and you probably won't even need the original endorsement. I had the same issue with my commercial. Of course, then the secondone expired!
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Grant, do you have a source for that? Or is it just they didn't require a fresh endorsement when you went for the retake? 61.35(a)(1) just says "an endorsement", no mention of a time limit, so I would THINK there isn't one, at first glance. But the endorsement itself is dated, and this sounds like one of those gray areas where different testing centers might be able to have different requirements. If there's any doubt, I'd rather be safe and get a fresh endorsement rather than walk in and have to forfeit my appointment (and probably my $150 as well).
 
I only needed my expired original and the original endorsement for my second Instrument written.
 
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