Requestion IMC flight instruction as a basic PPL student

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drotto

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drotto
Requesting IMC flight instruction as a basic PPL student

Title basically says it all. I was wondering can a student (obviously with a CFI) request being taken up in IMC conditions during their basic training to get a feeling of IMC flight. I know the basic training requires some hood work, and unusual attitude training, but was wondering if people had kinda taken the next step?
 
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Nothing precludes it as long as the instructor (who is PIC in this situation) is legal to fly IFR.
In fact, my wife's instructor did exactly that with her.
 
Absolutely legal and possible, if your instructor is willing. My CFI and I did this during my primary training.
 
No need to put the cart before the horse, says me. Enough to learn to fly an aircraft as it is.
 
61.109 requires a PP candidate to have at least three hours of flight solely by reference to instruments. No reason some of that couldn't be done in actual IMC on an IFR flight plan, if the circumstances work out. It's usually just easier to put a hood on the student though, so it's not typically done. Also, recover from unusual attitudes is best done in VMC so really shouldn't do all of it in actual.

If you do some time in actual instrument conditions, make sure your CFI is a CFII (or more accurately a CFI-ASE IA) so at least he or she has had experience training instrument students (and hopefully training them in IMC).
 
I've been in actual IMC during my primary training, for no other reason than if we didn't go in it, we wouldn't have flown at all.
 
Brad Z said:
61.109 requires a PP candidate to have at least three hours of flight solely by reference to instruments. No reason some of that couldn't be done in actual IMC on an IFR flight plan, if the circumstances work out. It's usually just easier to put a hood on the student though, so it's not typically done. Also, recover from unusual attitudes is best done in VMC so really shouldn't do all of it in actual.

If you do some time in actual instrument conditions, make sure your CFI is a CFII (or more accurately a CFI-ASE IA) so at least he or she has had experience training instrument students (and hopefully training them in IMC).
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My CFI is CFII certified, and does training all the way up to commercial mutli engine. He also flies charter in just abotu any conditions.
 
Many of the above responses are going with the idea you'll be in the left seat and flying.

However, just as useful to you might be letting the CFI take the left seat, and do a running narrative of all he's doing while you observe from the right seat. This allows all of your mental cycles to be allocated to observation & learning versus splitting attention between flying and paying attention to his teaching.

Some "real" IFR exposure at this stage is worth it. It will give you an idea of what to look forward too.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Many of the above responses are going with the idea you'll be in the left seat and flying.

However, just as useful to you might be letting the CFI take the left seat, and do a running narrative of all he's doing while you observe from the right seat. This allows all of your mental cycles to be allocated to observation & learning versus splitting attention between flying and paying attention to his teaching.

Some "real" IFR exposure at this stage is worth it. It will give you an idea of what to look forward too.
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My dad did a good chunk of his IFR training in actual IMC conditions (by chance). He felt it was an advantage, because the hood can simulate the visual conditions, but the turbulence, rain, possible icing etc, that often come along with IMC are much harder to simulate. That is kinda why I asked the question.
 
I've taken my primary students into actual IMC as part of their 3 hour requirement. It gives them a better sense of what it's really like to enter IMC visually.

But they also need to be able to learn the mechanics of flight solely by reference to flight instruments and unusual attitude recoveries, which can be done with the foggles.
 
I've done it many times with students. It's a real learning experience. Just take them inside of a cloud and say "Your controls." :no:

Bob Gardner
 
My primary CFI (also a CFII) did that with me. A sunset-into-night IMC flight for around 1.5 hrs (she always liked the sunset flights because of the transition from light to dark). I thought it was a good exercise - a hood is one thing, but not being constrained by a hood and seeing nothing but gray or black no matter where you look is a totally different feeling. We went into daytime IMC at least once, too.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Many of the above responses are going with the idea you'll be in the left seat and flying.

However, just as useful to you might be letting the CFI take the left seat, and do a running narrative of all he's doing while you observe from the right seat. This allows all of your mental cycles to be allocated to observation & learning versus splitting attention between flying and paying attention to his teaching.

Some "real" IFR exposure at this stage is worth it. It will give you an idea of what to look forward too.
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Unless the student is a CFI candidate, why would you suggest the student sit in the right seat?
 
About halfway through my training my CFI and I have been wanting to go up in real ifr conditions. The problem is down here real ifr has been crappy wx to fly in since that conversation or we just haven't had our schedules synced.
 
AggieMike88 said:
2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence.
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I'd have to disagree with you. ;)

Part of my training for CFII is to be able to fly and teach at the same time in IMC. If I'm not able to let the student fly while I teach then I need to receive more training.

The student will get the wrong ideas from sitting in the right seat just watching me. I can tell them all day long what they need to do. But until they actually do it, they have not learned the needed skill.
 
Understood. I was introducing the idea of observation only. Many flights with other experienced pilots where they are PF and left seat, I still learn quite a bit.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Understood. I was introducing the idea of observation only. Many flights with other experienced pilots where they are PF and left seat, I still learn quite a bit.
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It's best to get that for free by sitting right seat on a $100 hamburger run. Students pockets are already taxed and paying an instructor to do all the flying IMHO is a bad idea to give instructors.
 
AggieMike88 said:
2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence.
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What's that have to do with sitting in a particular s eat? CFIIs are perfectly capable of flying from the right seat.

IMO, sitting back and observing has it's place, but generally that is most efficiently done sitting in the back while another student flies up front.
 
flyingron said:
Nothing precludes it as long as the instructor (who is PIC in this situation) is legal to fly IFR.
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As well as the aircraft and you're on an IFR flight plan (or pop up clearance).
 
Brad Z said:
If you do some time in actual instrument conditions, make sure your CFI is a CFII (or more accurately a CFI-ASE IA) so at least he or she has had experience training instrument students (and hopefully training them in IMC).
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There's no requirement that they be a CFII. They can instruct in actual those three answers just like they can in simulated imc. There's no guarantee that a II has any more experience with students in actual than anybody else.
 
steingar said:
No need to put the cart before the horse, says me. Enough to learn to fly an aircraft as it is.
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I don't think this is putting the cart in front. How many PPLs fly into clouds and lose it each year?

In fact, I say ramp it up. File or get a local IFR clearance and request a block altitude and airspace. Then let your student fly right into the soup and let him try to get out. If he gets turned aroundm great. If he loses it then get him out and do it again with coaching.

Super training I say. Something they might actually be able to use one day/night.
 
My CFI back when I was a student pilot (not a student of flying like we all are) said at the start of our first lesson, "I have an instrument rating and I'm not afraid to use it." Needless to say part of my training was a good grounding in what to stay the heck out of until I had the IR. Not hard to get that sort of experience around here in the Pacific Northwe(s)t. I had 0.8 actual before my PP check ride.
 
Brad Z said:
What's that have to do with sitting in a particular s eat? CFIIs are perfectly capable of flying from the right seat.
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While all CFI-Airplane instructors hold an instrument pilot rating, not all of them hold an instrument instructor rating. Those who do not have never been tested and certified on their ability to handle from the right seat a flight such as described with a non-instrument-qualified trainee flying in the left seat. I would suggest putting such an instructor in the left seat for such an IFR demo ride.
 
In addition to what I already posted - my primary CFI always thought it was a good idea to get a student up into MVFR and to show what really happens in VFR into IMC flight so the student can see the real thing. Taking someone into a cloud and saying "your airplane" is good, but I sure learned a lot when I went from marginal viz to less than marginal to none and could see just how someone can get caught.
 
Agree with Captain. It's a long way from being able to keep the shiny side up in the clag to having the skills to fly in the system. Every pilot should be able to survive a VFR into IMC encounter because chances are, unless they go for the IR right away or are exceptionally conservative in their ADM, sooner or later it will happen. Flying without visual reference is not rocket science and it's not really all that hard, but it takes practice, and foggles are not even close to the real thing. So I say, pick a good low day without ice or thunder, nab your CFI and go do it (assuming he's game). Preferably, more than once. It's a great learning experience and might save your life someday.
 
Ron Levy said:
While all CFI-Airplane instructors hold an instrument pilot rating, not all of them hold an instrument instructor rating. Those who do not have never been tested and certified on their ability to handle from the right seat a flight such as described with a non-instrument-qualified trainee flying in the left seat. I would suggest putting such an instructor in the left seat for such an IFR demo ride.
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Did I not say CFII?

Would you not agree a CFII (CFI-ASE IA) is tested and certificated to fly the aircraft by reference to instruments in an instructional environment from the right seat?
 
flyingron said:
There's no requirement that they be a CFII. They can instruct in actual those three answers just like they can in simulated imc. There's no guarantee that a II has any more experience with students in actual than anybody else.
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Sure, but as Ron noted, at least a CFII has had some modicum of training to instruct by reference to instruments. The CFII is an easy add-on to the CFI ticket; if the instructor is so good at flying in IMC as an instructor why haven't they taken the CFII checkride?
 
Brad Z said:
Did I not say CFII?
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You did, indeed, but others did not, and I think it needed to be addressed specifically.

Would you not agree a CFII (CFI-ASE IA) is tested and certificated to fly the aircraft by reference to instruments in an instructional environment from the right seat?
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There is no such thing as a "CFII" in Part 61, so if you want to use that term, you need to define it carefully. There are CFI's with IA but no ASE, and CFI's with ASE but no IA. The former are not permitted to give any flight training at all (only ground/sim training). The latter are legally permitted to give flight training under IFR in the goo, but it doesn't count as "instrument flight training" and I don't think it's particularly smart for them to do that until they complete CFI-IA training and pass the CFI-IA practical test.

Since there are a lot of CFI-ASE's out there giving primary training, it's entirely possible that one of them (or one of their trainees) might want to do a demonstration IFR flight into the goo, and I think it would be prudent for that CFI-ASE with instrument instructor rating to do that in the left seat with the trainee in the right seat (as suggested above).

And I see that in your next post, you agreed with me on these issues.
 
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Re: Requesting IMC flight instruction as a basic PPL student

drotto said:
Title basically says it all. I was wondering can a student (obviously with a CFI) request being taken up in IMC conditions during their basic training to get a feeling of IMC flight. I know the basic training requires some hood work, and unusual attitude training, but was wondering if people had kinda taken the next step?
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Abso-freaking-lutely. The hood/foggles are a very poor substitute for the real thing.

My first actual IMC and the first ILS approach I shot were on a flight where I ticked over 10 hours total time logged, pre-solo. I didn't do all of the radio work or set up the approach, just did what my CFI told me to, but it was me on the controls the whole time and it was an incredibly valuable experience.

I did another longer lesson in IMC later in my private training as well. After that one, I shut down the engine and my CFI said, "Congratulations, you now have more actual IMC time than I did when I got my instrument rating."

The first time was something I think all student pilots should experience. ATIS was saying the ceiling was at 1100, but we ended up entering the clouds at 700 while we were in a left turn. Almost as soon as we were in the clouds, I got a major case of the leans, with my brain telling me (quite loudly!) that we were turning right. Had I listened to my brain, I'd have been knife-edge in just a few seconds. I just concentrated really hard on the instruments until the feeling passed. It was a great demonstration of why non-instrument rated pilots have such a poor track record in bad weather, and was motivation both to stay the heck out of bad weather and to get my instrument rating ASAP.

Do it!
 
What sicko CFI would exhaust a student with a 10hr flight and then do a LONGER one after that!
 
Brad Z said:
If you do some time in actual instrument conditions, make sure your CFI is a CFII (or more accurately a CFI-ASE IA) so at least he or she has had experience training instrument students (and hopefully training them in IMC).
Click to expand...

If the instructor isn't a double I(just an instrument rated CFI) can he still take a student up in IMC legally? I assume yes... but would there be an issue with logging the time as actual IMC training?? I've wanted to ask this for a while, just kept forgetting:)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
If the instructor isn't a double I(just an instrument rated CFI) can he still take a student up in IMC legally? I assume yes... but would there be an issue with logging the time as actual IMC training?? I've wanted to ask this for a while, just kept forgetting:)
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Yes and he can log instruction given/received. But can't log it as instrument training.

Jaybird180 said:
ASE?
:confused:
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Airplane Single Engine.

I have a CFI-ASE which means I can instruct in ASEL or ASES. (Because I have the ASES rating on my pilot certificate) The CFI Airplane certificate only differentiates between Multi and Single
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
If the instructor isn't a double I(just an instrument rated CFI) can he still take a student up in IMC legally? I assume yes... but would there be an issue with logging the time as actual IMC training?? I've wanted to ask this for a while, just kept forgetting:)
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Yes, it's technically not instrument instruction, but it counts as dual received and can be logged as actual, meeting the requirement for flight time solely by reference to instruments (notice the regs don't say instrument instruction for the PP). As such, it doesn't count towards the 15 hours of instrument instruction required for the instrument rating.
 
I backed my mental train up to post #30 and trying to understand who is actually qualified to give "instrument training" (beyond PPL 3hr requirement).

Here's what I got: (check me)
CFII is a misnomer
A CFI who is qualified as an instructor in Single Engine Airplane (ASE) can instruct a candidate in ASE, provided said CFI is instrument rated and has passed the requisite instructor's practical test, demonstrating said qualification.

If I am good up until here, my question becomes: what needs to be stamped on the instructor certificate if said instructor ascended through qualifications as such:
PPL-ASEL
IA
CPL
Instructor (CFI)
...then a test of ability to give instrument instruction

Is that right?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
If the instructor isn't a double I(just an instrument rated CFI)...
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You mean holding only an ASE rating, not IA, on his/her CFI ticket, right?
...can he still take a student up in IMC legally? I assume yes... but would there be an issue with logging the time as actual IMC training?? I've wanted to ask this for a while, just kept forgetting:)
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Yes, it's legal, but it's not "instrument flight training" even if it can be logged as both training received and actual instrument time, and as discussed above, it might not be prudent. Makes for a bit of difficulty when filling out the 8710-1 for the trainee's instrument rating later on, too (since it doesn't count for the required 15 hours of instrument flight training for that rating), but that's only a matter of bookkeeping, not legality.
 
Jaybird180 said:
ASE?
:confused:
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Airplane Single Engine. 14 CFR 61.5 gives us the ratings which a CFI may hold:
(c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(1) Aircraft category ratings--
(i) Airplane.
(ii) Rotorcraft.
(iii) Glider.
(iv) Powered-lift.
(2) Airplane class ratings--
(i) Single-engine.
(ii) Multiengine.
(3) Rotorcraft class ratings--
(i) Helicopter.
(ii) Gyroplane.
(4) Instrument ratings--
(i) Instrument -- Airplane
(ii) Instrument -- Helicopter
(iii) Instrument -- Powered-lift.
(5) Sport pilot rating.
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Note that per 61.195...
(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
...so a CFI without the requisite category/class ratings (i.e., one with only an instrument rating) on his/her CFI ticket is not permitted to conduct flight training in an aircraft of that category/class even though they hold an instructor instrument rating for that category. 61.195 goes on to say:
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(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.
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This is the one which tells us that the training time logged with a CFI holding ASE but with no IA cannot be used towards the required 15 hours of instrument flight training for the instrument rating.
 
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