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Don in Tenn

Filing Flight Plan
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Don
I have a conference coming up in October and debating whether to fly there myself (DKX -> CPS). SR-20 rental is $175/hr and it will be just me going.

Does attending a conference qualify under the business exception in 61.113(b) if I were to seek reimbursement?
 
Yes, so long as you don't take a passenger or company property. Another employee is definitely a no-no. The company property can be a bit fuzzy.

But that's the FAA. Your employer may well reject the request for liability reasons - strict workers compensation type liability that might not be covered by their policy.
 
If your employer balks, just use ground mileage as if you drove. When I asked, my boss told me “No, and I don’t wanna know how you got there”.

Only did it a couple times because of dispatch reliability - I couldn’t risk missing my meetings and didn’t want that as a risk factor. Be safe.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I used my airplane for travel to company meetings and just claimed the expense as if I had driven those miles. Sure, it cost more to fly my Bonanza, but the time savings and pleasure of flying made it worthwhile to me.
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Yeah, this works until you find yourself in an airplane that is...inefficient...and costs way more than mileage (like a Duke). Then it hurts a lot to eat that excess.
 
bradg33 said:
Yeah, this works until you find yourself in an airplane that is...inefficient...and costs way more than mileage (like a Duke). Then it hurts a lot to eat that excess.
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That person flying a Duke isn't going to bother about the pitiful standard mileage reimbursement for traveling a couple hundred miles. He lights several Benjamins on fire by starting the engines and taxiing to the active runway.

:biggrin:
 
Check your employer rules. For me to ask for reimbursement I need 3 million liability policy with my company listed as an insured. Good luck finding that policy.
 
3393RP said:
That person flying a Duke isn't going to bother about the pitiful standard mileage reimbursement for traveling a couple hundred miles. He lights several Benjamins on fire by starting the engines and taxiing to the active runway.

:biggrin:
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It's probably only one Benjamin to get to the runway; a lap around the pattern at 90-100gph on takeoff, is when we get into lighting multiple Benjamins on fire...

Overall message is it's just best that your employer not know how you get to and from places (and don't take other employees if you're gonna push the limits). Very, very few private employers are going to be OK with personal travel via your own airplane. And the ones that are OK with it are likely smaller companies who don't have a proper HR or legal department (because those are the ones who will shut it down).
 
The corporation I worked for had a policy regarding flying an airplane for business. It included getting permission to fly in general (I can't remember who had to approve it) and liability insurance. Reimbursement was limited to the Y class airfare. If you flew your own plane, the expenses that were reimbursable were just gas, landing fee, tie-down fees. If you rented, that was reimbursable.

I used it a few times.

If I recall correctly, the corporation stopped the policy eventually. Thank the lawyers and accountants.
 
When I worked for the Navy (civil service) in the 1980s, they reimbursed you per mile whether flying yourself or driving. IIRC it was 25¢/mile for driving and 45¢ for flying.
 
bradg33 said:
It's probably only one Benjamin to get to the runway; a lap around the pattern at 90-100gph on takeoff, is when we get into lighting multiple Benjamins on fire...

Overall message is it's just best that your employer not know how you get to and from places (and don't take other employees if you're gonna push the limits). Very, very few private employers are going to be OK with personal travel via your own airplane. And the ones that are OK with it are likely smaller companies who don't have a proper HR or legal department (because those are the ones who will shut it down).
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I was taking into consideration the overall feeding and care expenses, which can exceed the costs of having several ex-wives and their dressage horses.

:biggrin:
 
Don in Tenn said:
I have a conference coming up in October and debating whether to fly there myself (DKX -> CPS). SR-20 rental is $175/hr and it will be just me going.

Does attending a conference qualify under the business exception in 61.113(b) if I were to seek reimbursement?
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“in connection” is rather a broad purpose. You just can’t haul cargo or people.
 
bradg33 said:
Yeah, this works until you find yourself in an airplane that is...inefficient...and costs way more than mileage (like a Duke). Then it hurts a lot to eat that excess.
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That’s why you evaluate things when making a decision. Not the same type of employment situation, but I used to do something similar. The distances were not reasonable for a drive, so I would purchase a refundable airline ticket. If I flew myself, I would eat the excess and I had a pretty good idea what that was and found it acceptable.

Cost differential? I'd rather look at this than the inside of of an airliner. Priceless.

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My company had a very explicit policy that forbid flying yourself anywhere, nevermind reimbursement. Given that most of us traveled weekly, it was painful when we had a client that was just a bit too far to drive, but a PITA to fly to commercial. I was based in ATL and had several clients that were about a 1 - 2.5 hour GA flight, but effectively a 4+ hour airline commute due to getting to and through ATL, landing at an airport that was a 30 minute drive to the client site etc. Always hated that, and was tempted to just fly myself and eat the cost, but the policy was pretty darn strict and we had early AI tools looking at your expense reports to find anomalies.
 
bradg33 said:
Yeah, this works until you find yourself in an airplane that is...inefficient...and costs way more than mileage (like a Duke). Then it hurts a lot to eat that excess.
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which would you rather do: drive, fly in the back of an aluminum tube, or get to fly yourself?

If it's just about "efficiency" rather than the magic of flight, sure, go by the airline.
 
Dallas to Houston, Austin or San Antonio would be great candidates for just flying yourself, but like others here, there's a specific bullet point in the travel policy that says "you shall not fly yourself anywhere on company business"
 
MacFlier said:
Dallas to Houston, Austin or San Antonio would be great candidates for just flying yourself, but like others here, there's a specific bullet point in the travel policy that says "you shall not fly yourself anywhere on company business"
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If you leave out Austin flying to these cities is what created Southwest.
 
Government reimbursement rate for personal aircraft is $1.935/statute mile, for what it's worth.

www.gsa.gov

Mileage reimbursements

We share the current and historical privately owned vehicle, or POV rates and explain how they work.
www.gsa.gov www.gsa.gov
 
Can’t speak for the FAA, but I tried this once and received a rather firm admonition from our corporate lawyer. He told me he couldn’t stop me from doing it, but the company would not reimburse any expenses; and I would need to be on PTO, since they would not be responsible.... read: liable—for anything that happened.

I pointed out that I probably stood a better chance of being killed on the Los Angeles freeways than during the proposed activity. His response: “Our insurance covers that.” Naturally, I asked about flying on the airlines. Same answer: “Our insurance covers that, too.”
 
Ventucky Red said:
Can’t speak for the FAA, but I tried this once and received a rather firm admonition from our corporate lawyer. He told me he couldn’t stop me from doing it, but the company would not reimburse any expenses; and I would need to be on PTO, since they would not be responsible.... read: liable—for anything that happened.

I pointed out that I probably stood a better chance of being killed on the Los Angeles freeways than during the proposed activity. His response: “Our insurance covers that.” Naturally, I asked about flying on the airlines. Same answer: “Our insurance covers that, too.”
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The relative risk doesn't make any difference. Besides, risk underwriters don't agree with you on the risk of light GA; non-aviation insurers generally exclude private aircraft operations from coverage. Your employer would probably have strict liability under your state's worker's comp laws for anything that happened to you, but no insurance to cover it. That's a non-starter for most employers.

Years ago, when I was working for a banking software, we had a user conference. I went to the boss and said, "How about I give some of our best customers an airplane ride?" He replied, "You're fired!."
 
Initial Fix said:
Check your employer rules. For me to ask for reimbursement I need 3 million liability policy with my company listed as an insured. Good luck finding that policy.
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You'd be surprised. When I was treasurer of our flying club we had a member who asked about flying a club plane and was given similar requirements. When I actually called the insurance company, they said that not only would they be happy to add his company as named insured, they wouldn't even charge any additional premium for it. I was pretty shocked.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You'd be surprised. When I was treasurer of our flying club we had a member who asked about flying a club plane and was given similar requirements. When I actually called the insurance company, they said that not only would they be happy to add his company as named insured, they wouldn't even charge any additional premium for it. I was pretty shocked.
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The additional insured part isn't hard. Getting $3mm in liability coverage can be.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Can’t speak for the FAA, but I tried this once and received a rather firm admonition from our corporate lawyer. He told me he couldn’t stop me from doing it, but the company would not reimburse any expenses; and I would need to be on PTO, since they would not be responsible.... read: liable—for anything that happened.

I pointed out that I probably stood a better chance of being killed on the Los Angeles freeways than during the proposed activity. His response: “Our insurance covers that.” Naturally, I asked about flying on the airlines. Same answer: “Our insurance covers that, too.”
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Exactly. Almost a carbon copy of my case.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You'd be surprised. When I was treasurer of our flying club we had a member who asked about flying a club plane and was given similar requirements. When I actually called the insurance company, they said that not only would they be happy to add his company as named insured, they wouldn't even charge any additional premium for it. I was pretty shocked.
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It's not surprising. Adding an employer for liability purposes is generally not any bigger a big deal than adding the airport for liability or your secured lender for hull coverage. It doesn't really change the risk calculation appreciably.

$3 Million smooth coverage OTOH...
 
midlifeflyer said:
The relative risk doesn't make any difference. Besides, risk underwriters don't agree with you on the risk of light GA; non-aviation insurers generally exclude private aircraft operations from coverage. Your employer would probably have strict liability under your state's worker's comp laws for anything that happened to you, but no insurance to cover it. That's a non-starter for most employers.

Years ago, when I was working for a banking software, we had a user conference. I went to the boss and said, "How about I give some of our best customers an airplane ride?" He replied, "You're fired!."
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Didn't got to law school but I am told the first thing you learn is; "the answer to every question is no..."

It all became moot a few weeks later when everyting shut down becasue of covid.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Hearsay.... inadmissible.... right? :p
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It depends :D That's the answer to everything. :D

It also happens to be the answer to whether something is inadmissible hearsay. As the lawyers know (well, maybe not the transactional guys), once you get past whether it meets the definition of hearsay to begin with, you get to see if it fits into one of the over 30 official exceptions.
 
You can buy airline tickets online and cancel within 24 hours without any financial penalty. When traveling for business, I'd often buy an airline ticket and print the receipt, then cancel my order. I'd fly myself and present the airline ticket receipt for reimbursement. No questions were ever asked. When I had my own business, I'd often fly myself and use the GSA mileage rate approved for personal flight in my business deductions. After July 1, 2026, that rate was $1.935/mile. As others have said, different companies have different rules about flying yourself for business. Some companies outright refuse reimbursement for personal flight, some require an instrument rating and a commercial license to be reimbursed, and some have no restrictions. Now that I'm fully retired, all of my flying comes out of pocket. Even my charitable flights are not deductible because my income level is low enough that I get more back from the standard deduction than from itemizing. Sigh.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I must have been out that day. First time I’ve ever heard that.
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This is starting to become routine in many areas. A 'no' answer can always be turned into a 'yes' later without consequences, but the opposite is not true. I've noticed that insurance companies, HR departments and budget offices are saying 'no' more often, and when you appeal they easily fold. Even my straightforward annual medical visit to my physician came back denied. I wish there was penalty for wrongful denial.
 
JVerb said:
Government reimbursement rate for personal aircraft is $1.935/statute mile, for what it's worth.

www.gsa.gov

Mileage reimbursements

We share the current and historical privately owned vehicle, or POV rates and explain how they work.
www.gsa.gov www.gsa.gov
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Well that is interesting to know, thanks! I work for the state government so I'll need to check if they have a similar policy.
 
sarangan said:
This is starting to become routine in many areas. A 'no' answer can always be turned into a 'yes' later without consequences, but the opposite is not true. I've noticed that insurance companies, HR departments and budget offices are saying 'no' more often, and when you appeal they easily fold. Even my straightforward annual medical visit to my physician came back denied. I wish there was penalty for wrongful denial.
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"no" is an easy cop out. "yes" has risk and typically has conditions.

I'm sure you noticed the first answer in this thread was, "yes." ;)
 
Not helpful to the question at all, since it was a long time ago and I have no idea about the IRS or company rules
But to support what others have said...I did it once, and it made the business trip so much more pleasurable.
I did recognize that delays for weather or mechanicals could have made it oh so much more stressful, but I did mine as an out-and-back day trip, and it was much more enjoyable.
Living in Kennesaw, GA at the time, North of ATL, I had a quick trip down to the middle of nowhere South GA. It may have needed to be an overnight if I had driven it... Maybe something like 4 or 5 hours each way. But with GA on a beautiful VFR day, departure was at a normal time, and I was back home at a reasonable time

I don't remember for sure, but I think that I just submitted the rental and parking fees or whatewver on my expense report, pretty much just as if I'd rented a car.
 
Hang 4 said:
I was based in ATL
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The pain increases even more if you don’t live in a hub city. 6-7 hour drive was the cutoff for drive vs airlines, so that opened up even more opportunities for self-flying. I rarely took the opportunity due to “gotta be there”.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
The pain increases even more if you don’t live in a hub city. 6-7 hour drive was the cutoff for drive vs airlines, so that opened up even more opportunities for self-flying. I rarely took the opportunity due to “gotta be there”.
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"Gotta be there" just means you need to leave early enough that you can drive if you get to the airport and have a dead mag or some other airworthiness issue. So, in your case with the 6-7 hour drive, that means if you need to be there at 5 PM, you leave at 10 AM and if the airplane or weather is broken (or breaks along the way) you just drive the rest of the way. But, in the likelier scenario where you complete the flight, you get there at 1:30-2 PM and have some chilling time and on the trip home you get home early.

I've used the Mooney to great effect with business flying. I've been able to work an extra half day *and* have an extra full day at home on a normal week-long business trip compared to airlines. Never did have an issue with the plane or the weather, just had to hurry a bit on one departure to get back out as there was a tropical storm approaching. An instrument rating and a well-maintained airplane are very useful tools indeed.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
The pain increases even more if you don’t live in a hub city. 6-7 hour drive was the cutoff for drive vs airlines, so that opened up even more opportunities for self-flying. I rarely took the opportunity due to “gotta be there”.
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If you are concerned about "gotta be there," see if you can find some old videos from the Life in the Fast Lane YouTube channel. Jon used to post here. He's the drummer for an Eagles tribute band and used to fly his Meridian to gigs. The opening of most of the videos was Jon doing his weather and flight planning. If it was drivable at all, there was an analysis of his final go-no-go time so there was still there was still time to drive. Even if you get nothing out of the planning and flying, the music is great!
 
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