Rental Options for Long Trip - DA40 Questions

[AcroGimp]

So I am evaluating my travel options for a possible flight from KMYF (San Diego) to KAAO (Wichita, KS) for Thanksgiving this year as a treat to myself, and of course everyone else in my family .

I am COMM-ASEL/IFR, ~410 TT, not IFR current but with access to CFII's and a legit ground trainer, experience in 39 make/models but a lot of time in Bonanzas - about 100 hrs in A-36 Bonanza's with KAP-140's and HSI's although it is 10 years ago now (wow, just realized that). BFR is coming up in a month or two.

I took the CAP G500/600 ground school course last year and have the excellent PC Trainer that I use a lot along with the G430/530 trainer - so I know the switchology and page navigation for those - I will be getting the Diamond G1000 PC Trainer from Garmin just for giggles.

All this to level set on my background and experience so I can ask some specific questions.

I am currently checked out in a nice '66 Cessna 182J with G430 (no A/P) and have taken it to the midpoint of this trip, KAEG in Albuquerque NM a couple years ago. Rents for $120 wet, plus tax (~$130/hr). Last I travelled I think we averaged about 135 kts.

However, I might join a local flying club to get access to several Diamond DA40's and possibly Cirrus SR-22's, with G1000's/Perspective (one SR-22 has Avidyne).

The DA40's are about $170/hr wet (no tax for club operations), claimed cruise is 145-150 kts. Does not appear to be any onerous special checkout requirements. G1000/GFC700 or KAP140, one with SVT.

The SR-22's are about $280-290/hr wet, claimed cruise is 180 kts. Require specific transition training and annual recurrent training.

So first and obvious question is why the ‘F’ do the Cirrus cost so much more? 30-40 kts is not worth $100/hr. I mean I know they are a little nicer but still, WTF? And why the crazy training requirements compared to other G1000 type aircraft?

So unless someone can make a super strong argument for the ludicrous cost of the SR-22's it really boils down to the old school C-182 or the new school DA40.

The 182 is a solid family truckster but lacks sex appeal and I have reached a point in my flying that I am interested in getting some real world TAA exposure.

Between sales tax on the 182 and the slightly higher claimed cruise speed for the DA40 it should be close enough to a wash in terms of cost to not be an issue (excluding checkout).

I am very familiar with EFIS operation although it is mostly work-related (engineer) and personally is sim-based, not flight experience (<5 hrs).

First off, what are real world cruise numbers with 3 adults and bags and say @7,000 and 11,000?

How about ride quality in turbulence in the DA40? It gets bumpy in the West and don’t need WifeyGimp and DaughterGimp yakking all over each other.

And seriously, why the difference in rental costs DA40 to SR-22? Acquisition costs are not different enough I think to justify it. Fuel flow would obviously be part but shouldn’t be 10GPH more, so what gives? I have seen both types up close although I haven’t flown either yet, fit and finish were a bit different but again not enough to justify $100/hr to my mind.

Same club has a Malibu for less than $300/hr and a couple Debonairs/Bonanza’s for less than or right around $200/hr, I really don’t ‘get’ the Cirrus pricing.

Anyway, any other thoughts or tips on the DA40 as an alternative to the 182 are appreciated.

‘Gimp

 

[sourdough44]

1020 nm before you look at adjusting for terrain. How much are you allowing to adjust for weather? The weather at the time is a bigger factor that what direction you go with an expected rental. You need backup plans if the wx is bad, IFR or VFR.

The backup could be sliding the dates a bit, commercial home for pax, or car rental.

We flew to FL last April for a Spring Break trip. Until the day prior I had alternate plans standing by, the same for the return. We ended up flying both ways just fine.

 

[bnt83]

How many thousands of dollars per year do they reserve per year for the chute repack? Is the insurance any better on the SR22?



SR22 --- IO550 Continental (310 Hp) (92 gallons = 1049 nm range) air-conditioning, BRS chute G1000

DA40 --- IO360 Lycoming (180 Hp) (39 Gallons, 52 optional = (450nm or 650 nm range)

 

[AcroGimp]

1020 nm before you look at adjusting for terrain. How much are you allowing to adjust for weather? The weather at the time is a bigger factor that what direction you go with an expected rental. You need backup plans if the wx is bad, IFR or VFR.

The backup could be sliding the dates a bit, commercial home for pax, or car rental.

We flew to FL last April for a Spring Break trip. Until the day prior I had alternate plans standing by, the same for the return. We ended up flying both ways just fine.

Not really asking mom, God and apple pie ADM questions about travelling by air, been there done that including previous trips to over 800nm each way - really looking for specific info on the DA40 vs 182 and hoping anyone can explain why the SR-22's cost so much more - but you are right there are plenty of potential challenges when covering that distance that time of year in that part of the country.

Checked on the rental costs and my recollection was off, no sales tax on the 182 so cost difference is about $500 for the trip C182-DA40 comparing book performance to book performance (I assume planned flight time + 10% for budgeting purposes).

Interestingly, I just checked advance purchase tickets via airlines and for similar travel time ($1800), the 182 is only $230 more for the 3 of us (we will need a rental car while there either way).

If I was expecting heavy IMC I would prefer the DA40 because I consider single-pilot IFR with no A/P to be undesirable (I can do it it's just high workload) - but weather trend wise the past 5 or more years I could have flown VFR - same for Christmas time.

'Gimp

 

[AcroGimp]

How many thousands of dollars per year do they reserve per year for the chute repack? Is the insurance any better on the SR22?



SR22 --- IO550 Continental (310 Hp) (92 gallons = 1049 nm range) air-conditioning, BRS chute G1000

DA40 --- IO360 Lycoming (180 Hp) (39 Gallons, 52 optional = (450nm or 650 nm range)

Good point on the CAPS chute Brian, totally forgot about that as a potential cost driver. I would expect insurance to be lower for the DA40 (engine size, etc.) but again, trying to come up with a justification for the massive difference in rental cost is difficult.

'Gimp

 

[Sac Arrow]

The 182 will handle turbulence a lot better than a DA40. Speeds are going to be about the same. 150 kts in a DA40 is optimistic. 120 - 130 is more like it.

 

[bnt83]

Good point on the CAPS chute Brian, totally forgot about that as a potential cost driver. I would expect insurance to be lower for the DA40 (engine size, etc.) but again, trying to come up with a justification for the massive difference in rental cost is difficult.

'Gimp

I'd guess per mile the DA40 is cheapest on fuel. I'd bet the 182 is the dead last in MPG.


Insurance wise I remember AOPA saying they were going to extend (like it was a great deal) coverage on the "reimagined" 152 to Flight Schools at $6,000 per year, I nearly fell off my chair.

Maybe one is WAAS capable IFR and the other basic IFR? Does the SR22 have TKS?

IO550, G1000, air conditioning, TKS, 1000nm range, BRS = much higher loan payments than a DA40.

 

[bnt83]

I thought all SR22s had air but it appears to be an option, like factory oxygen and a whole list of goodies.

 

[chartbundle]

So, I assume I know the Flying Club you're talking about. I usually take one of the 182RGs for my longer trips, one has a single screen Aspen and a very very nice STEC autopilot and really does true out about 155(and coincidentally just became unavailable for thanksgiving...). I've done about 80% of the SR22 checkouts. Both of the SR-22s are Avidyne, one is a pair of Garmin 430 and one is a pair of Garmin 650 both really nice planes but I also don't really think they're worth the extra money unless you're trying to impress someone. I'm also checked out in the Turbo 182 G1000, which is a bit of a fun plane if you don't mind sucking on oxygen to get any useful speed, but as I recall 150-155KTS wasn't a problem at 16,000, but apparently I misplaced my notes for my actual block time on that flight(KMYF to Sacramento) The downside to the 182 G1000 and Turbo G1000 are their annoyingly low useful load. No time in the DA40s to give you an opinion there.

 

[txflyer]

I don't know about all these planes.

All I can recommend for a long trip is get one with an autopilot. I'd take a slower plane if it had auto and the faster one did not.

A/C is nice for you and your passengers if you can get it.

 

[Datadriver]

The SR-22's are about $280-290/hr wet, claimed cruise is 180 kts. Require specific transition training and annual recurrent training

So first and obvious question is why the ‘F’ do the Cirrus cost so much more? 30-40 kts is not worth $100/hr. I mean I know they are a little nicer but still, WTF? And why the crazy training requirements compared to other G1000 type aircraft?

180kts in a non-turbo SR22 is fraud. I averaged 170kts in an SR22/G2 over 35 hours of use.

Cirrus are more expensive because the insurance is so much higher. Everytime someone pops a chute insurance takes a hit.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Cost of capital: The Cirrus is about $150-200K more expensive

Fuel: The Cirrus burns ~6 gph more

The Chute Repack is ~$1K per year

Insurance is higher. I don't think it's the chute pulls. I think it's the higher airframe cost, the overall loss profile and the cost of repairs that drives the higher insurance. I'm sure that a chute pull costs far less than the alternative.

It's easy to see why the Cirrus costs $100 more per hour

How many thousands of dollars per year do they reserve per year for the chute repack? Is the insurance any better on the SR22?



SR22 --- IO550 Continental (310 Hp) (92 gallons = 1049 nm range) air-conditioning, BRS chute G1000

DA40 --- IO360 Lycoming (180 Hp) (39 Gallons, 52 optional = (450nm or 650 nm range)

 

[jonnyjetprop]

It's nice to have the option to fly that variety of planes. Most of the rental fleet I see today are limited to PA-28, C-172 and maybe a C-182.

So, I assume I know the Flying Club you're talking about. I usually take one of the 182RGs for my longer trips, one has a single screen Aspen and a very very nice STEC autopilot and really does true out about 155(and coincidentally just became unavailable for thanksgiving...). I've done about 80% of the SR22 checkouts. Both of the SR-22s are Avidyne, one is a pair of Garmin 430 and one is a pair of Garmin 650 both really nice planes but I also don't really think they're worth the extra money unless you're trying to impress someone. I'm also checked out in the Turbo 182 G1000, which is a bit of a fun plane if you don't mind sucking on oxygen to get any useful speed, but as I recall 150-155KTS wasn't a problem at 16,000, but apparently I misplaced my notes for my actual block time on that flight(KMYF to Sacramento) The downside to the 182 G1000 and Turbo G1000 are their annoyingly low useful load. No time in the DA40s to give you an opinion there.

 

[madtrader]

I think I'd want an A/P for such a long trip, but if I were picking between a 182 and the DA40 with 3 people and baggage I think I'd pick the 182. The useful load on the DA40 I rent is too low unless I down-load on fuel quite a bit. I plan for 135kts with both.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Cost of capital: The Cirrus is about $150-200K more expensive

Fuel: The Cirrus burns ~6 gph more

The Chute Repack is ~$1K per year

Insurance is higher. I don't think it's the chute pulls. I think it's the higher airframe cost, the overall loss profile and the cost of repairs that drives the higher insurance. I'm sure that a chute pull costs far less than the alternative.

It's easy to see why the Cirrus costs $100 more per hour

All of this. Plus lets be real, are you gonna impress a girl you are bringing home for the holidays to meet the folks with a throw-up canopy or Lamborghini style doors? A plane with adjustable rudder pedals and a stick in your crotch, or a plane with super comfortable/adjustable seats and a side stick, freeing up your crotch... The cost difference is obvious.

 

[AcroGimp]

I think I'd want an A/P for such a long trip, but if I were picking between a 182 and the DA40 with 3 people and baggage I think I'd pick the 182. The useful load on the DA40 I rent is too low unless I down-load on fuel quite a bit. I plan for 135kts with both.

Helpful bit of info, thanks!

'Gimp

 

[AcroGimp]

All of this. Plus lets be real, are you gonna impress a girl you are bringing home for the holidays to meet the folks with a throw-up canopy or Lamborghini style doors? A plane with adjustable rudder pedals and a stick in your crotch, or a plane with super comfortable/adjustable seats and a side stick, freeing up your crotch... The cost difference is obvious.

I impressed the girl so much 23 years ago she married me so no longer a need .

'Gimp

 

[rbridges]

I've never flown in a DA40, but I know the 182 is comfortable. Also, the longest trip I've personally flown is 350nm.

If the DA40 is comfortable, carries the load you need and has an AP, it would be my choice. Otherwise, my tailbone trumps AP, and I would go with the 182.

 

[John Galt]

All of this. Plus lets be real, are you gonna impress a girl you are bringing home for the holidays to meet the folks with a throw-up canopy or Lamborghini style doors? A plane with adjustable rudder pedals and a stick in your crotch, or a plane with super comfortable/adjustable seats and a side stick, freeing up your crotch... The cost difference is obvious.

Couldn't agree more. Always choose the plane that is more likely to get you laid.

 

[Mikemetham@gmail.com]

As a new member, I also need to know how to post a technical question to the community!
Cheers
Mike Metham

 

[madtrader]

Let us know what you actually end up doing and how it went.

 

[AcroGimp]

Another option I forgot about, the place with the 182 also has a '69 Cherokee Six 300 with GNS430 and Autocontrol A/P (coupled I believe but not sure).

The Big Six does away with weight and cubic concerns about travelling for a week with two women, cruise speeds are similar, and only $20/hr more which isn't too bad.

I have time in the Warrior II with an Autocontrol II I think, so the Big Six shouldn't be too much of a challenge, especially since I was flying A-36 Bonanza's - I get a solid moving map and backup flight data from GDL-39 3D and Garmin Pilot combo.

The DA40 would cube and weight out too quick, as would, I suspect, even the SR-22.

Thinking that maybe I'll wait on TAA exposure for now or at least not plan on it with respect to a possible long cross like this.

Interested in Cherokee Six 300 experiences now.... ;^)

'Gimp

 

[AcroGimp]

Verified the Cherokee Six has Piper Autocontrol III (Century II) which is a wing-leveller/heading A/P, no NAV/OMNI/LOC capability and not coupled to the GNS430, still a viable alternative for this possible trip. With adequate pitch trimming once on-step and the text steering comands from the GNS430 and Garmin Pilot it should be OK for single-pilot IFR if need be.

When it gets back from Mexico I'll get checked out in it and maybe try a simple trip to Vegas first for a 'time-machine' weekend to show the girls how much faster travel can be.

Still interested in impressions/tips for the PA32-300.

'Gimp

 

[madtrader]

Sounds like a very good alternative.

 

[mtuomi]

DA40 cruises realistically at 120-125, not 150. Horrible ride in turbulence too. Try to fit in one first before committing, its an "interesting" cabin to fit if you're a full size person

Can you find a PA32R-301 Saratoga? Perfect plane for that mission. The Cherokee 300 would be great as well.

No need to compare about stick positions and impressing girls, true pilot scores in a bar, regardless of the plane...

 

[dukeblue219]

DA40 cruises realistically at 120-125, not 150.

Maybe an old, broken down DA40-180, but any newer model should give you at least 135. Plenty of DA40 pilots here who can speak with specific numbers, but it sounds like the OP was talking about an XL or XLS model given the GFC700 and SVT references. I'd be shocked if you could only pull 120-125 out of one of those newer planes.

 

[dukeblue219]

The DA40's are about $170/hr wet (no tax for club operations), claimed cruise is 145-150 kts. Does not appear to be any onerous special checkout requirements. G1000/GFC700 or KAP140, one with SVT.

The SR-22's are about $280-290/hr wet, claimed cruise is 180 kts. Require specific transition training and annual recurrent training.

So first and obvious question is why the ‘F’ do the Cirrus cost so much more? 30-40 kts is not worth $100/hr. I mean I know they are a little nicer but still, WTF? And why the crazy training requirements compared to other G1000 type aircraft?

And seriously, why the difference in rental costs DA40 to SR-22? Acquisition costs are not different enough I think to justify it. Fuel flow would obviously be part but shouldn’t be 10GPH more, so what gives? I have seen both types up close although I haven’t flown either yet, fit and finish were a bit different but again not enough to justify $100/hr to my mind.

Are you confusing the SR22 with the SR20? The -22 is arguably not in the same class as the DA40 or 182. It's a 3600lb airplane with a 310HP engine, more in the class of the A36 Bonanza you have experience in. The acquisition costs are pretty different -- just look at Controller or something to get a sense. A brand new DA40XLT is around $415k today. A used 2009 XLS is around $260k. A brand new Cirrus SR22 is $750k and a used 2009 model is around $460k.

Anyway, for that flight, if I was taking a family along and had those options I'd do it in the SR22, and not solely because of the parachute, although it would be nice. Unless you have a family that regularly flies and enjoys bumping around in an spam can the SR22 will be more comfortable, more spacious, and offer plenty of performance to get above terrain and turbulence.

The 182 would be more cost effective while still having plenty of performance and a stable flight.

I think the DA40 would be my last option if I'm taking my family -- it's fun and efficient, but you're going to feel a lot more of the bumps and you may be pretty heavily loaded with fuel and passengers for that 180HP engine. Density altitude will not be your friend when you stop for fuel on that trip most of the year.

If I was expecting heavy IMC I would prefer the DA40 because I consider single-pilot IFR with no A/P to be undesirable (I can do it it's just high workload) - but weather trend wise the past 5 or more years I could have flown VFR - same for Christmas time.

What are the MEAs for the route you had in mind? Are they doable with a DA40 and 3 passengers + bags? I also think you're going to find that by Thanksgiving you won't want to count on flying any of those planes in "heavy IMC" due to icing risks, especially over high terrain.

 

[Jaybird180]

This question is perfect for using excel. You can compare costs and time for the trip. You're welcome to use this one that I made some time ago to answer similar questions.

Once you get the objective stuff out of the way then you can answer questions about aircraft capability (list them side by side). Then go on to aesthetic or just simply choice.

Unfortunately, PoA will not allow me to post .xlsx files and I cannot change file extensions on my work puter, so I attached a pic to give you an idea.

PM me if you want the excel file,.

 

[madtrader]

Maybe an old, broken down DA40-180, but any newer model should give you at least 135. Plenty of DA40 pilots here who can speak with specific numbers, but it sounds like the OP was talking about an XL or XLS model given the GFC700 and SVT references. I'd be shocked if you could only pull 120-125 out of one of those newer planes.

+1

The DA40 I rent is a 2007 XL and it'll do 135 at 2000' MSL. That's why I flight plan for 135, I'm usually higher and faster, but gives me a buffer.

 

[AcroGimp]

The Big Six might be out, came back from Mexico, on a trailer, prop governor failure followed by emergency landing resulting in wing damage.

MEA for the western part of the trip KSDM-KAEG is 11,000 (from Phoenix to Albuquerque), KAEG-KAAO is one bit at 12,000 at ABQ then downhill after that so the Skylane would work - just have to ship the big bags.

We'll see.

'Gimp

 

[petrolero]

Is it a FIKI and/or turbo SR22? Given the weather that time of year, terrain you'll be crossing and likely winds it would sure be nice to be able to head up to the flight levels and enjoy smoother air, higher TAS, higher tailwind component eastbound, and to stay above, rather than in, the mountains with those winds. I'm thinking climb to FL190 or 210 and let 'er rip. Civilized-like.

 

[AcroGimp]

Is it a FIKI and/or turbo SR22? Given the weather that time of year, terrain you'll be crossing and likely winds it would sure be nice to be able to head up to the flight levels and enjoy smoother air, higher TAS, higher tailwind component eastbound, and to stay above, rather than in, the mountains with those winds. I'm thinking climb to FL190 or 210 and let 'er rip. Civilized-like.

If the Cirrus didn't more than double the trip cost to almost $4K I would actually consider it, they look nice - I'll be going to the SoCal Airplane Day on Friday at Montgomery (KMYF) to spend some time around the SR-22 and sit in on some purchasing and financing seminars (not for the SR-22 though).

'Gimp

 

[chartbundle]

Is it a FIKI and/or turbo SR22? Given the weather that time of year, terrain you'll be crossing and likely winds it would sure be nice to be able to head up to the flight levels and enjoy smoother air, higher TAS, higher tailwind component eastbound, and to stay above, rather than in, the mountains with those winds. I'm thinking climb to FL190 or 210 and let 'er rip. Civilized-like.

Neither of the SR-22 of the place he's talking about are Turbo or FIKI, both are TKS though. I believe there is an SR-22 Turbo rental on the field, no idea on the checkout but I think the price was in the $350/hr or so range, but they don't seem to have prices on their website so I'm not sure if they're still doing any rentals to folks outside of their training programs.

Of course, the plane he really should take is the Malibu. 10 Hours training in make/model required(IFR required, 500TT 100 Retract), $299/hr, pressurized, known-ice. And yet another one I'm not checked-out in.

 

[AcroGimp]

Neither of the SR-22 of the place he's talking about are Turbo or FIKI, both are TKS though. I believe there is an SR-22 Turbo rental on the field, no idea on the checkout but I think the price was in the $350/hr or so range, but they don't seem to have prices on their website so I'm not sure if they're still doing any rentals to folks outside of their training programs.

Of course, the plane he really should take is the Malibu. 10 Hours training in make/model required(IFR required, 500TT 100 Retract), $299/hr, pressurized, known-ice. And yet another one I'm not checked-out in.

I would actually like to try the Malibu out for sure, shirt sleeves at FL250 and 215 KTS, WifeyGimp and DaughterGimp would dig that for sure.

1/3 less time enroute, above most Wx, and it would be 20% cheaper than the SR-22's.

You might be on to something there.....

'Gimp