Rental "damage", after return

rocketflyer84 said:
That's a business decision for the FBO to make. If they forgo a proper post-flight inspection then they, mostly, forgo the option of making claims against the renter for a lot of things--especially external damage.

The FBO can't have it both ways.
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No, they can't have it both ways, but sometimes they will make an attempt to see if the renter will do the right thing. ( Not making a judgement on this particular case).

Leaseback is the dumbest business I ever entangled myself in and I will never do it again.
 
When you get hit with a call like in the OP, all you should do is say, "Ok, I'll let my insurance know about it." That ends everything for you, you're done dealing with them over this situation, don't talk about it anymore except with your insurance people.
 
vintage cessna said:
No, they can't have it both ways, but sometimes they will make an attempt to see if the renter will do the right thing. ( Not making a judgement on this particular case).

Leaseback is the dumbest business I ever entangled myself in and I will never do it again.
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It is a very rare "asset management" scheme works out for the asset owner.
 
The other side of the story, from my experience with a plane on leaseback. I had an agreement with the mgr of the FBO that no matter what condition when the plane goes out, it is inspected after each rental flight on return. The operator(renter) is responsible for airworthy when he takes it up, but we are responsible when it comes back.

Most of the line staff were less than thrilled about doing a return inspection than they were about fueling planes, and I get that. At first, the plane would be checked out with the renter as soon as they brought the keys in. After a few months, it was at the end of the day, with possibly two renters or more on a sat or sun, then it slipped to a few days, and I finally put my foot down after a renter left the master on for the third time and ran the battery partially down.

Finally, I had to make it part of the contract that someone from the FBO would inspect the plane on return, or the FBO had to take the plane off rental rotation, and remove it from the schedule. We finally got it sorted out right, and we could guarantee that each month we'd find something messed up. I don't know why pilots can't operate a simple cowl latch but we had to replace it four times. I finally watched a renter cycle the latch, and then slam the cowl forward with both hands and it all made sense. Next, was the dipstick which came in for plenty of abuse. Found plier marks on it a couple times, and put an end to that. No matter how simple something is, a renter will find a way to screw it up, and never, ever report it to the FBO. The worst one was the guy who broke the seat back cuz he weighed about 260Lbs and when he would get out of the plane, he put his hand on the top of the seat back and pushed to lift himself up. He kind of brought it back into place, and tried to return the plane but the mgr went to sit in the seat, and it folded back like a cheap lawn chair: "it was like that when I got it". Yeah, sure you flew a 2 hour flight, with the seat back in the rear seat. Uh-huh.
 
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Some renters don't report stuff, others do right away because they don't want to fly it again that way... a time when an alternator failed on me comes to mind.

Four days later is a LONG time for something else to have occurred. Also, unless it was really obvious a crack from something pushing out on the window from inside the aircraft, I'd be inclined to think it not the renters fault. Most renters I know would report something like a birdstrike on the canopy.
 
Henning said:
It is a very rare "asset management" scheme works out for the asset owner.
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To be honest, I wasn't prepared for the "damage" thing. Which is my fault for not doing due diligence before committing. The typical FBO is nothing like a car rental. They are not corporate, and there is a different relationship with the customer. Everyone gets to know everyone else. It is a situation where you just expect some trust and integrity and not resorting to lawyers to settle everything. Unless we are talking major damage there will be no lawyers or any real pursuit for damages.

So when I hear, well they should check everything thoroughly before and after and if not , screw them. It is just one reason, but a very annoying and expensive reason why it didn't work for me.
 
I got caught up in similar situation... had to deal with a flat spot on a tire...

Got a call from the club dispatcher after doing some pattern work and practice approaches one day telling me he was going to ding my account to replace the tire... at that time I really had no recourse as I didn't catch it in the pre-flight nor did I squawk it... I can say with about 99% certainty it was not my doing, but......... wasn't worth the yelling contest either so I paid it..

From that point forward I have become real anal when renting a plane and even point out carpet satins with photos... Yes I have a camera with me...

On another note, I agree with the fact there are some renters out there that are slobs, and are expecting others to clean up after them. It shames me sometimes to watch how they treat others airplanes and have no self pride what-so-ever.... Using my best NYC vernacular one day, I called one gent on this and had him come back and clean his crap out of the plane... funny from that point forward the club started a Clean Plane Policy...
 
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I can see both sides of this issue.......and have to say I would never put a plane on leaseback.......you are wide open for abuse from the FBO and the renters.

I was scammed on a rental deal in the late 90's at John Wayne airport from an FBO that started with "L" and was managed by a guy named Sal. I took out a 172 for a short scenic run towards the coast one afternoon and had noted somebody prior had put in the logbook "right tire has flat spot". Saw that but it was soon forgotten and the plane was parked so that the flat spot was hidden. I took off but 20 mins later the fog started rolling in and I headed back and made a smooth landing on 19L. Locked the plane up properly and left. About 10 days later I get a letter from the "L" company (appears to be out of business now) and it says my account will be charged $135 for a flat spot on the right tire of that plane. My pilot ego was outraged of course since I knew my landing hadn't done it, and it was already in the logbook. I demanded a meeting.........and this certified Ahole Sal proceeded to calmly tell me that since I hadn't noted the tire in the logbook I was going to pay for it. I rather sharply told him it was already there and it was plain I had nothing to do with it. He came back with the company policy bit. I had two FBO's I rented at and for my longer trips I used the one in the IE, and I primarily did short scenic runs along the coast at this place so I surmised he just wanted to get rid of me, I wasn't worth keeping on the books. Only had like $120 bucks on account, and it wasn't worth the hassle to fight it so I finally threw a $20 on the floor and walked out never to be seen again after telling him what I thought of his ancestry. So renters beware out there, check that plane over and CYA..........most FBO's aren't that way but you never know.
 
Ventucky Red said:
From that point forward I have become real anal when renting a plane and even point out carpet satins with photos... Yes I have a camera with me...
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I think that's good advice... just take a few quick pictures of the aircraft during pre-flight.

Back when I was renting an apartment rather than owning my home I was real anal about taking lots of photos on move-in to document the state of the apartment. I had been burned once by a landlord that saw the security deposit as theirs for the taking. Sure saved me some $$$ next time come move out and the landlord's security deposit inspection.

Initially got dinged for a bunch of scratches / stains / damage and the landlord wanted to take most of my security deposit. We pulled out all the photos I took at move in and wouldn't ya know but there were all those scratches / dings / damage on the day I moved in.

"Eh, I think we're good here. Here's you'll full deposit." :rofl:
 
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Vf6cruiser said:
I can see both sides of this issue.......and have to say I would never put a plane on leaseback.......you are wide open for abuse from the FBO and the renters.

I was scammed on a rental deal in the late 90's at John Wayne airport from an FBO that started with "L" and was managed by a guy named Sal. I took out a 172 for a short scenic run towards the coast one afternoon and had noted somebody prior had put in the logbook "right tire has flat spot". Saw that but it was soon forgotten and the plane was parked so that the flat spot was hidden. I took off but 20 mins later the fog started rolling in and I headed back and made a smooth landing on 19L. Locked the plane up properly and left. About 10 days later I get a letter from the "L" company (appears to be out of business now) and it says my account will be charged $135 for a flat spot on the right tire of that plane. My pilot ego was outraged of course since I knew my landing hadn't done it, and it was already in the logbook. I demanded a meeting.........and this certified Ahole Sal proceeded to calmly tell me that since I hadn't noted the tire in the logbook I was going to pay for it. I rather sharply told him it was already there and it was plain I had nothing to do with it. He came back with the company policy bit. I had two FBO's I rented at and for my longer trips I used the one in the IE, and I primarily did short scenic runs along the coast at this place so I surmised he just wanted to get rid of me, I wasn't worth keeping on the books. Only had like $120 bucks on account, and it wasn't worth the hassle to fight it so I finally threw a $20 on the floor and walked out never to be seen again after telling him what I thought of his ancestry. So renters beware out there, check that plane over and CYA..........most FBO's aren't that way but you never know.
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I'm sure those types are out there, but it is far from common. The average rental agreement actually holds the renter to a high degree of accountability, but it is rarely enforced.

More often than not, it is in the FBO's interest to stick it to the owner than the renter. So when people say "screw you, prove it" they are most likely screwing the owner and not the FBO.
 
For those of you who think that an aircraft rental business is no different than any other business and should be conducted as such, I would like you to consider one thing.

If aircraft rental was a real business and conducted like others, it may not even exist, or at least not to the extant it does today. No business man is going to lay out the kind of capital needed to aquire an airplane with the expectiation that the investment will never be recouped. The best that can be hoped for is that revenue exceeds expenses by some small amount. If aircraft rental was a real business the rates would be at least twice what you are paying.
 
docmirror said:
Simple cold expansion crack. They happen all the time in winter. If someone was pre-heating the engine, or had the engine started and put on the defrost, or cabin heat anything with a heat change in winter will strain the plexi and crack it. Heck, it can crack just sitting in the sun.

No claim, go away.
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I remember having a windshield on a car break during the day while parked at a ski area. Beautiful sunny day. Windshield was fine when I parked, cracked from one side of the car to the other when I returned. No clue what happened, but that's why my dad and I always carried 0 deductible comprehensive insurance. It's not insurance, it's an investment that will pay off. And it has, multiple times over the decades.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Some renters don't report stuff, others do right away because they don't want to fly it again that way... a time when an alternator failed on me comes to mind.

Four days later is a LONG time for something else to have occurred. Also, unless it was really obvious a crack from something pushing out on the window from inside the aircraft, I'd be inclined to think it not the renters fault. Most renters I know would report something like a birdstrike on the canopy.
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It's rare that I don't turn in a squawk sheet on rentals.:(
 
Ventucky Red said:
I got caught up in similar situation... had to deal with a flat spot on a tire...

Got a call from the club dispatcher after doing some pattern work and practice approaches one day telling me he was going to ding my account to replace the tire... at that time I really had no recourse as I didn't catch it in the pre-flight nor did I squawk it... I can say with about 99% certainty it was not my doing, but......... wasn't worth the yelling contest either so I paid it..

From that point forward I have become real anal when renting a plane and even point out carpet satins with photos... Yes I have a camera with me...

On another note, I agree with the fact there are some renters out there that are slobs, and are expecting others to clean up after them. It shames me sometimes to watch how they treat others airplanes and have no self pride what-so-ever.... Using my best NYC vernacular one day, I called one gent on this and had him come back and clean his crap out of the plane... funny from that point forward the club started a Clean Plane Policy...
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People always ask why I do such anal preflights, this adds into that. When I find things on a preflight, I squawk them to the FBO before I leave. I've even started to taxi and felt a flat spot, shut down, walked in and made them aware. I make it a point to point out all the things I could get dinged for.
 
Henning said:
No, he needs to call his insurance man and tell him what's going on. It's the insurance company's job to tell him to go pound sand, that's why you buy insurance.
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Yeah, I had that philosophy for awhile -- until they started paying every bull***** claim presented to them, however much I howled at them, and my rates skyrocketed.

I have a narrower view now. I screen for them, since they are so afraid of acting in bad faith.

In thinking about it, though, do renter insurance policy rates EVER increase after a claim? They seem pretty rack standard everywhere. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about a rate increase. Might be worth a call to the broker to see what they say about it -- if the rates stay the same regardless of claim history, then yeah, involve them, watch them pay a bogus claim, and feel a little worse about the world. :D
 
Funny, I have a nearly identical situation going on with Avis over a car windshield. I turned the car in, and a few weeks later they call me up saying the windshield was broken and it's my responsibility. I reminded them that their rep looked the car over and accepted it when I returned it. They turned the claim over to a third party collector. I got a intimidation letter demanding I pay it. I suspect they want me to turn the claim in to my insurer or credit card company. But I didn't do it. I think it's a scam. So I handed the claim to my attorney instead.
 
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schmookeeg said:
Yeah, I had that philosophy for awhile -- until they started paying every bull***** claim presented to them, however much I howled at them, and my rates skyrocketed.

I have a narrower view now. I screen for them, since they are so afraid of acting in bad faith.

In thinking about it, though, do renter insurance policy rates EVER increase after a claim? They seem pretty rack standard everywhere. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about a rate increase. Might be worth a call to the broker to see what they say about it -- if the rates stay the same regardless of claim history, then yeah, involve them, watch them pay a bogus claim, and feel a little worse about the world. :D
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If you are presenting that volume of bull**** claims, there needs to be a reevaluation of what is going on to cause all these bull**** claims. You're into the far other end of this question spectrum.

As for renter rates, they are by nature high tier rates, they are by no means 'cheap insurance' for the coverage provided. That said what claims do to the rate will depend on your claim frequency in comparison to your actuarial group, and if that warrants putting you into another risk pool, as well as the cause and circumstances of the claim.

Since it's already high tier, the more likely result is 'non renew' if they want to change your risk category.
 
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A friend. We have other things cooking so this is a pleasant diversion. His FU letter will be more effective than mine could be and in that I'll save money by avoiding having to deal with it.
 
Bobanna said:
I don't blame you on principle, but is lawyer going to be cheaper? I could see a few carefully-crafted letters, but lawyers love to fight and run the clock pretty hard, too.
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There's a fantastic old letter from an NFL lawyer floating around out there on the interwebs responding to some silly "I'm gonna sue I want some money from you" letter sent in my a disgruntled fan's lawyer. The letter says something like:

"As a professional courtesy, I thought I'd let you know that some ***hole has stolen your letter head and is sending out stupid letters."
 
Henning said:
:confused::confused::confused: Why?!? It's not his job, and if he has insurance, it's not even his place since it is no longer his sole liability. It's actually foolish because if things get stupid and suddenly he needs a lawyer, if he didn't abide with a 'timely reporting' clause (I will bet dollars to donuts it's in every one of these policies) then the insurance can deny him representation.

Aren't you a lawyer? You should know better. Just like when accused of a crime, you shut the **** up and let your lawyer handle it. In these types of civil situations of liability, the insurance company is your lawyer, you pay them a retainer every year in your premium, use them.
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Henning - the point is that the FBO / owner will have a bad taste in their mouth unless someone goes and has a chat =-

The story here is simple: this exact aircraft was not used for 5 days? Was it in a hangar? did someone drop a tool on the wind screen and crack it? Piece of ice fell?

There are all sorts of reasons for the OP not being responsible - but if he a) does not have renter insurance and b) is certain he dd break the windscreen - they by all means go have a chat about it.

5 days of being in someone else's control pretty much means its not his fault . . .
 
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Bobanna said:
I don't blame you on principle, but is lawyer going to be cheaper? I could see a few carefully-crafted letters, but lawyers love to fight and run the clock pretty hard, too.
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The price of the car rental repair is almost always $500. Now why does that number sound familiar?

Or, they'll have a $2000 claim which they will 'reduce' to $500 to take into account the uncertainty.

I generally invite the claiming carrier to forward me photos, receipts for repair, estimates and then a statement from the person who took the car back and the one who discovered the damage. I tell them thats my procedure for paying claims.

In the 25 years I've been renting cars - its never gotten past that point. The agency/ company / licensee always just goes away when they see the legal letterhead and the request for information.
 
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Vf6cruiser said:
I was scammed on a rental deal in the late 90's at John Wayne airport from an FBO that started with "L" and was managed by a guy named Sal.........
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Was this the same place that had the one guy giving instruction that wasn't even a CFI and was having another CFI sign off the log books or something like that?
 
mkosmo said:
Perhaps I need to learn to shop better, but where can I find a $65 tire?
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Just bought a Monster retread from Desser for just a few bucks more. We use them on our towplane and they've held up well.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Was this the same place that had the one guy giving instruction that wasn't even a CFI and was having another CFI sign off the log books or something like that?
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Not familiar with that going on since I only had one occasion for a CFI check out on a newer 172 with a G1000 in it. Sounds like something they would do......that place was the only bad experience I've had in aviation........and was only out $135 so not too bad.............
 
Witmo said:
Just bought a Monster retread from Desser for just a few bucks more. We use them on our towplane and they've held up well.
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+1 on the Desser Monster retreads...

They are tougher then wood pecker lips....:yes:.......:)
 
comanchepilot said:
Henning - the point is that the FBO / owner will have a bad taste in their mouth unless someone goes and has a chat =-

The story here is simple: this exact aircraft was not used for 5 days? Was it in a hangar? did someone drop a tool on the wind screen and crack it? Piece of ice fell?

There are all sorts of reasons for the OP not being responsible - but if he a) does not have renter insurance and b) is certain he dd break the windscreen - they by all means go have a chat about it.

5 days of being in someone else's control pretty much means its not his fault . . .
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I agree that there is no claim against the guy. The best way to deal with it and NOT leave a bad taste in the FBO owner's mouth is let the insurance company be the bad guy and straighten him out. He's going to be told to pound sand either way, but you get to remove yourself from that process by letting the people you have paid a retainer to do this to, do it.
 
40 yrs of renting. Can't say I've ever had an FBO or flight school post flight an airplane I brought back. I normally have a squawk or to to write up. I've had flight schools tell me about a flat spotted tire when I pick up the keys. Never been charged for "damage" to an airplane.

I do know schools that have "fired" renters, asked not to return, after repeated flat spotted tires. That seems to be the most common problem. Except for the guy that taxied over a taxiway light and clipped it with the prop and nose wheel.
 
I would still respond to the first "inquiry" from the FBO citing that I did no such damage and that the timeliness of their complaint was outside of the scope for which I would be held responsible for damage which cannot be directly attributed to me. If they still pressed the issue, I'd tell them that all future correspondence would be directed to my insurance company, followed by "have fun with that".
 
SoonerAviator said:
I would still respond to the first "inquiry" from the FBO citing that I did no such damage and that the timeliness of their complaint was outside of the scope for which I would be held responsible for damage which cannot be directly attributed to me. If they still pressed the issue, I'd tell them that all future correspondence would be directed to my insurance company, followed by "have fun with that".
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To update, this is essentially what was done. FBO was told by the renter during the initial exchange that the claim was unreasonable given that they didn't raise the issue until well after the airplane was returned--making it a very real possibility the damage occured during that gap. Absent any clear proof at that point to clearly link it to the renter then there was nothing to discuss.

FBO continued to push the issue, renter's insurance was engaged and its with them now.
 
jesse said:
Had a guy flat spot a tire, landed with the brakes on, tire had 30 hours on it. I spent some time trying to decide if it would be worth trying to collect but ultimately came to the realization that it is a $65 tire and the guy is flying the airplane often. He is learning to fly. Flat tires happen.
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My last rental flight caused me to accelerate AC purchase due to a tire. Was with a CFII and my right main went flat during landing (not on brakes). First thing out of owners mouth was that I'd be paying for it as it was brand new. Our field had several hangars under construction and a nail was picked up on taxi out ... I know cause I would roll the Cessnas looking for flat spots from previous renters and there wasn't a nail on pre-flight. Mechanic found the nail immediately.

Reason I was peeved was that a week earlier a renter flat spotted a new tire, paid for it, and had the priviledge of having the rubber on display at the FBO with their name on it behind the counter. I'm glad I own and don't rent ....
 
SoonerAviator said:
I would still respond to the first "inquiry" from the FBO citing that I did no such damage and that the timeliness of their complaint was outside of the scope for which I would be held responsible for damage which cannot be directly attributed to me. If they still pressed the issue, I'd tell them that all future correspondence would be directed to my insurance company, followed by "have fun with that".
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Write it and send it to your insurance man, on this matter, they are the only ones you should be dealing with. They are your lawyer, and they will absorb any penalty.
 
danhagan said:
My last rental flight caused me to accelerate AC purchase due to a tire. Was with a CFII and my right main went flat during landing (not on brakes). First thing out of owners mouth was that I'd be paying for it as it was brand new. Our field had several hangars under construction and a nail was picked up on taxi out ... I know cause I would roll the Cessnas looking for flat spots from previous renters and there wasn't a nail on pre-flight. Mechanic found the nail immediately.

Reason I was peeved was that a week earlier a renter flat spotted a new tire, paid for it, and had the priviledge of having the rubber on display at the FBO with their name on it behind the counter. I'm glad I own and don't rent ....
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Dicks, no way I would ever tell someone they had to pay for damage if I were in the right seat giving instruction.

I've had more than one student over the years say "wow, I'm going to have to write you a check for damage after that landing" followed by me "airplanes are tough, I let it happen, if there is damage which there won't be I will pay".
 
Also hanging the tire with a name as shame, that is so low class I would never do business with them again, and would potentially run them out of business because *******s don't belong in this business.
 
Henning said:
Also hanging the tire with a name as shame, that is so low class I would never do business with them again, and would potentially run them out of business because *******s don't belong in this business.
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While I agree with the sentiment, these ticks are all over the place. Aviation is kind to the very best and very worst -- everyone in the middle gets squashed.
 
jesse said:
Dicks, no way I would ever tell someone they had to pay for damage if I were in the right seat giving instruction.

I've had more than one student over the years say "wow, I'm going to have to write you a check for damage after that landing" followed by me "airplanes are tough, I let it happen, if there is damage which there won't be I will pay".
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What about stalling one on from 6" up and setting off the ELT?

That happened in a plane I was in - the landing was not anywhere CLOSE to a hard landing - it just got stalled on from no more than 6" up = 4 hours later i get a phone from a friend at the FBO that the ELT had gone off in that airplane . . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
What about stalling one on from 6" up and setting off the ELT?

That happened in a plane I was in - the landing was not anywhere CLOSE to a hard landing - it just got stalled on from no more than 6" up = 4 hours later i get a phone from a friend at the FBO that the ELT had gone off in that airplane . . . .
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I check the ELT after any "hard" landings with a student.
 
I set off the ELT in the 152 once, I must have dropped it in from a foot up. :lol:
 
Being in the rental business myself I am very cautious at the rental counter.

Car rental companies have such low rates that all the profit is made selling unnecessary insurance and damage claims to cars. This is especially so in Europe. If you read the contract in it entirety you will find that you are responsible for the daily rental rate until such time as the car can be put back in service. So if some small part is not readily available you are stuck with the daily rental.

1. I carry a " to whom it may concern" letter from my VISA company containing my credit card number and declaring that my visa covers insurance and that it is void if I buy any kind of insurance from the rental company. Any covered visa company will email you one.

2. Where they ask me to sign about the condition of the car before I have seen it, I always write "based on inspection" before my signature.

3. I always write the desk agents name on my copy of the contract.

4. On inspection I take many I-phone pictures of the car with the agent in the first picture. every little scratch. I take a pic of every item on the contract, such as spare wheel, instruction books, jacks. My last rental in Europe the special lug nut key was not present, after much discussion I explained to them the one was not needed for that car, and had it removed from the contract and signed by two employees. I also take a pics of the fuel gauge and odometer reading. When wet or in the dark I insist that they take it to a lighted area.

5. On return I go through the same procedure and get a signed return contract where I add the fact that they have inspected the car.

In England especially the car rental folks are as close to crooks as the law will allow. Taking advantage of tired travelers who have just got off an all night transatlantic flight, ready to leave the airport environment and rest.

I own my own plane but if I did have to rent I would go through a similar procedure. Even more so with the pictures.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken Andrew
 
I have very good luck renting direct from Ford dealerships in Europe. I get well equipped cars at a good price. I have the contact number for my gal in Nicé if anyone is interested.
 
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