Reno Air Race Crash

kyleb said:
And recreational boating. Car shows and car races. Off road racing, whether cars, trucks, or bikes. Kids go-carts. Amusement rides. Football, baseball, basketball, tennis, golf …especially golf. Trophy hunting. Trophy wife hunting. All those things are pointless in some context and have an element of danger.

Ban ‘em all…
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don't forget to throw monster truck racing in there, is there any point to that other than noise and mayhem? how about tractor pulling?
 
  • Juan Brown (blancolirio) is confident it was a G-loc event. I neither endorse nor disagree; I don't know enough about air racing and all that's involved. Just reporting. But it seems to make sense.

Hunter Handsfield
States Flown.jpg
 
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Katamarino said:
...but by attending we accept that there are certain risks which are both unknown and outside of our control.
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I agree with that in principle but risk includes both probability and severity. I think everyone probably understood the severity, it's the probability of occurrence I think was misunderstood. I take no issue with accepting unknown risks in every activity - the first risk-related post I responded to (one of yours) said everyone *knew* the risks. I still disagree with that in the example I introduced and have been commenting on since. People may have understood the severity, but the probability of occurrence was significantly higher than typical of a race with well-maintained airplanes.

Nauga,
who wouldn't play spin the bottle with a loaded gun
 
Thinking about outliers. Statistically speaking there’s always outliers.
 
nauga said:
ded to (one of yours) said everyone *knew* the risks. I still disagree with that in the example I introduced and have been commenting on since. People may have understood the severity, but the probability of occurrence was significantly higher than typical of a race with well-maintained airplanes.

Nauga,
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The challenge is you have a bunch of one-off homebuilts and a bunch of 70 year old warbirds. Unless someone very good did a complete annual on each one, I think the risk of a mechanical issue, possibly a fatal one, is very real for all of 'em. They are all pushing old technology very hard. Ain't like they are racing unmodified 3 year old 172's.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Sheep are actually a sleeper item. I think that they are great... had a pair back in the day and actually did use them to "mow" lawns.

And I'm thinking that this "pointless" business is pretty introverted. What's pointless for you, may be meaningful, useful, and helpful for others. Again, you may not agree, but most people don't drop money on experimental stuff without a goal, even if that goal is just to go 5 KTS faster than the other guy.
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Well, I’m sure you noticed, but I never said anything about anything being pointless. I certainly have and had goals for my experimental stuff, both the one I fly and the one I’m building. You won’t see either one racing though. If I’m racing there are four wheels on the ground and the object is to NOT fly.
 
Great video that shows what happens during G-LOC.

The increased force of gravity pools the blood in your veins and prevents it from returning to your right heart. Blood into your left ventricle is now diminished too and your heart has no oxygenated blood to pump into your brain. You pass out (loss of consciousness) and while you nap, the plane is on its own.

Not sure about the ethics of doing this to your kid, BTW!

The science behind this is simple, and not requiring G suits at the air races (or for this kid) is totally irresponsible.

 
Himayeti said:
The science behind this is simple, and not requiring G suits at the air races (or for this kid) is totally irresponsible.
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Maybe not as simple as you think. G-suits don't prevent GLOC, and there are common conditions where they are less effective, like rapid G-onset. The best preventative measure is preparation. Even with a G-suit and good training it's still possible to GLOC at remarkably low G. With training and preparation, it's possibly with withstand remarkably high G and rapid onset without a g-suit. Unlimited acro guys do it frequently.

Nauga,
gettin' his grunt on
 
RyanShort1 said:
And I'm thinking that this "pointless" business is pretty introverted. What's pointless for you, may be meaningful, useful, and helpful for others. Again, you may not agree, but most people don't drop money on experimental stuff without a goal, even if that goal is just to go 5 KTS faster than the other guy.
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I said *I* find it boring and largely pointless. You might find much of what I find entertaining boring and pointless too, the difference is it doesn't bother me at all. I'm not trying to take away your entertainment, I'm simply voicing an opinion.

Nauga,
confined to pull out quotes in hotel rooms
 
DaleB said:
And lawn mowers. We could all have a few sheep and save the horrific mutilations that occur while operating power mowers.
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As an aside, one of the most respected leaders in US military special operations history was killed in a lawn mower accident a few years ago.
 
Half Fast said:
That may not work too well now that they’ll require all cars to be electric in a few years.
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But you can make electricity at your house. I know someone in not-so-sunny northern Ohio that pays no electric bill at all.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
But you can make electricity at your house. I know someone in not-so-sunny northern Ohio that pays no electric bill at all.
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Yes and I can grow my own food , manufacture my own clothes and tools and on and on … but I though one of the hallmarks of civilization is that we outsource almost all non-trivial tasks to specialized entities that are much more efficient ( and cost effective ) at performing these tasks - if we don’t then we are going back to pre-industrial age …
 
Warmi said:
Yes and I can grow my own food , manufacture my own clothes and tools and on and on … but I though one of the hallmarks of civilization is that we outsource almost all non-trivial tasks to specialized entities that are much more efficient ( and cost effective ) at performing these tasks - if we don’t then we are going back to pre-industrial age …
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Not comparable. You outsource the installation of your solar panels, then you are done. Enjoy the "fruits". Some de-centralization is good.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Not comparable. You outsource the installation of your solar panels, then you are done. Enjoy the "fruits". Some de-centralization is good.
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You might be a tad optimistic on how much power those roof top panels can provide, especially when you start trying to charge a couple of electric cars with them.
 
Warmi said:
It started with grass and now Californians are in the process of weaning off of electricity as well …
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As long as there is enough legal grass, people don't mind going without electricity occasionally.
 
Stevea621j said:
As long as there is enough legal grass, people don't mind going without electricity occasionally.
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So that's what they were thinking when they passed those laws. That's an angle I never thought of before! :D
 
Warmi said:
It started with grass and now Californians are in the process of weaning off of electricity as well …
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California will NEVER wean itself off grass. Lawns maybe, but not grass. :D
 
kyleb said:
The challenge is you have a bunch of one-off homebuilts and a bunch of 70 year old warbirds. Unless someone very good did a complete annual on each one, I think the risk of a mechanical issue, possibly a fatal one, is very real for all of 'em. They are all pushing old technology very hard. Ain't like they are racing unmodified 3 year old 172's.
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You must not have every been around racing, especially at the higher end. Things are checked, double checked, and then checked again. If anything is even a hair off, it gets replaced. Many of those 70 year old airplanes have few parts that are original.
 
Pinecone said:
You must not have every been around racing, especially at the higher end. Things are checked, double checked, and then checked again. If anything is even a hair off, it gets replaced. Many of those 70 year old airplanes have few parts that are original.
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From NTSB AAIB1201, "Pilot/Race 177, The Galloping Ghost North American P-51D, N79111"
"There was no documentation for the last replacement of the trim tab attachment screws and locknuts, but the presence of yellow paint on the locknuts beneath their uppermost paint coat indicates that the locknuts had likely been installed for at least 26 years because the airplane’s trim tabs were painted yellow before the 1985 NCAR. The screws were likely tightened 4 days before the accident flight when the technical inspection found a discrepancy on the right trim tab attachment screws, and the airplane had accumulated only three flights (including the accident flight) since that time. The loosening of the trim tab attachment screws and the deteriorated condition of the locknut inserts should have been noticeable to the ground crew. Based on the condition of the locknut inserts, the screws likely needed to be tightened several times over the course of the airplane’s recent racing career, providing the ground crew with an indication of a recurrent problem and opportunities to identify and replace the deteriorated hardware."

Nauga,
another nut that might need to be replaced
 
nauga said:
From NTSB AAIB1201, "Pilot/Race 177, The Galloping Ghost North American P-51D, N79111"
"There was no documentation for the last replacement of the trim tab attachment screws and locknuts, but the presence of yellow paint on the locknuts beneath their uppermost paint coat indicates that the locknuts had likely been installed for at least 26 years because the airplane’s trim tabs were painted yellow before the 1985 NCAR. The screws were likely tightened 4 days before the accident flight when the technical inspection found a discrepancy on the right trim tab attachment screws, and the airplane had accumulated only three flights (including the accident flight) since that time. The loosening of the trim tab attachment screws and the deteriorated condition of the locknut inserts should have been noticeable to the ground crew. Based on the condition of the locknut inserts, the screws likely needed to be tightened several times over the course of the airplane’s recent racing career, providing the ground crew with an indication of a recurrent problem and opportunities to identify and replace the deteriorated hardware."

Nauga,
another nut that might need to be replaced
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Miss Ashley II comes to mind as well.

As do F1 race cars broken down on the side of the track. Leclerc’s Ferrari was thoroughly checked before the start at Monaco 2021. Broke on the warm up lap.

Racing breaks things. And nothing is perfect to start with.
 
kyleb said:
Miss Ashley II comes to mind as well.

As do F1 race cars broken down on the side of the track. Leclerc’s Ferrari was thoroughly checked before the start at Monaco 2021. Broke on the warm up lap.

Racing breaks things. And nothing is perfect to start with.
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Rudyard Kipling said it well:

THE careful text-books measure
(Let all who build beware!)
The load, the shock, the pressure
Material can bear.
So, when the buckled girder
Lets down the grinding span,
‘The blame of loss, or murder,
Is laid upon the man.
Not on the Stuff – the Man!
 
francisco collazos said:
Interesting...........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
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Hmmmmmm.......

That reminds me of my Keltec P32 handgun. When I first bought it, I had trouble with jams, and then the slide developed a crack. The factory is close by so I called them about having it corrected under warranty. They asked me to bring the gun to them for repair. Their approach was interesting...

I drove over to their facility one morning, gave them the gun, then left for a few hours. After examing the gun, they decided that rather than "repair" it they would just build a new gun. To keep the paperwork straight and the gov't satisfied, they disassembled the old gun, destroyed all its parts, put the same serial number on a new replacement frame, and reassembled the gun with 100% new parts.

When I returned, they handed me back my "original" gun with all of its parts replaced. They then let me take it onto their range and run a couple of hundred rounds through it to be satisfied with the "repair."

So I still have the same gun that I initially bought, but without a single original part.
 
Reminds me of George Washington’s old hatchet sitting in the corner of my garage. The handle’s been replaced three times, and the head twice.
 
Half Fast said:
Hmmmmmm.......

That reminds me of my Keltec P32 handgun. When I first bought it, I had trouble with jams, and then the slide developed a crack. The factory is close by so I called them about having it corrected under warranty. They asked me to bring the gun to them for repair. Their approach was interesting...

I drove over to their facility one morning, gave them the gun, then left for a few hours. After examing the gun, they decided that rather than "repair" it they would just build a new gun. To keep the paperwork straight and the gov't satisfied, they disassembled the old gun, destroyed all its parts, put the same serial number on a new replacement frame, and reassembled the gun with 100% new parts.

When I returned, they handed me back my "original" gun with all of its parts replaced. They then let me take it onto their range and run a couple of hundred rounds through it to be satisfied with the "repair."

So I still have the same gun that I initially bought, but without a single original part.
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so was 'it live, or Memorex'?
 
Even new parts break.

And some things get missed.

But in racing, there is a much higher level of scrutiny and inspection and replacement.
 
kyleb said:
Miss Ashley II comes to mind as well.

As do F1 race cars broken down on the side of the track. Leclerc’s Ferrari was thoroughly checked before the start at Monaco 2021. Broke on the warm up lap.

Racing breaks things. And nothing is perfect to start with.
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Was MA II a Mx issue, or a design one? I know of the incident but don’t know that I’ve ever seen a report of the root cause.

While Nauga’s (and others’) point remains intact, to me, the Ghost is a representative of the exception, not the rule. While Reno (particularly the unlimited class) used to be the Wild West with regard to modification and safety testing (TLAR was alive and well), I don’t believe that to be the case anymore. Certainly the Ghost is partly responsible for this.
 
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