Regionals Want 1500-Hour Rule Waived

Doc Holliday said:
Once again, in true PoA style, non airline pilots and those who have never worked in the industry want to preach to those that are actually there. :rolleyes:
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Not only that, you've got mainline pilots lecturing about how the industry is (specifically the regional world) when they haven't worked at a regional in 15+ years...


Now that said, has the ATP law made flying safer, I don't think you can prove it one way or another. 117 on the other hand, most likely has improved things.
 
Larry in TN said:
as an airline pilot I have never attempted
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Larry in TN said:
The plan of commuting coast-to-coast on overnight cargo flights followed by a nap in a recliner in the crew room was fatally flawed. Nobody forced her to do that. Nobody forced her to fly sick.
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^that's awesome, for you. But one data point does not set a norm. The topic here was a pilot shortage, and the point was made that pay is still low for folks starting out. Maybe the vast majority of people are going to sacrifice $$ if they're feeling a bit tired, but as an industry I do believe the cards are stacked against new pilots. No one forced that pilot to do the mission she did, but there are a lot of soft variables that lead to it; airlines can work to mitigate those soft variables, in ways that a blanket 1,500 hr rule does not.. I am with you on doctors, it's insane the hours they work and I could never do it either. But the average general surgeon is making around $300K, and in many cases, much, much more. Also, the hospital also doesn't generally say "we'll pay you $49K.. but you can earn $300K if you get used to sleeping 3 hours a night" you have a call schedule, and you work. I have a few family members who went through the residency -> general surgery track; it's crazy. But the pay is damn good and the incentives are different

Doc Holliday said:
non airline pilots and those who have never worked in the industry
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..but, if there's a shortage, maybe it's worth listening to the people who've never worked in the industry why they don't work in the industry..? If there are misconceptions out there then it's up to the airlines and those in the industry to change those. After all, perception is reality.. and what many were told for a long time was "you'll make more money flipping burgers and your life is going to suck for 5 years; you'll probably get divorced.. but hey by the time you're 50 if you've survived long enough through the industry, furloughs, mental health, maybe you'll be flying a 777 and earning north of $200K" <- not a great prospect for many people entering the workforce deep in debt
 
In my slice of experience, I have heard a number of airline pilots actively discouraging their kids from following in their footsteps. To be sure, some do encourage their kids, but more at least take a hands off approach. Other professionals seem more inclined to encourage their kids to follow in their footsteps.
 
Tantalum said:
But the average general surgeon is making around $300K, and in many cases, much, much more. Also, the hospital also doesn't generally say "we'll pay you $49K.. but you can earn $300K if you get used to sleeping 3 hours a night" you have a call schedule, and you work. I have a few family members who went through the residency -> general surgery track; it's crazy. But the pay is damn good and the incentives are different
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I'd be willing to bet that the first 5 years at today's regional will pay better than 5 years at a general surgery residency. Actually, as someone who runs the finances for a general surgery resident, I'm sure it does, and she makes more than the average resident because of where we live. That's to say nothing about her medical school costing 4-5x what it takes to go from Zero to CFI.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that regional pay is adequate, but my wife's path to being a surgeon is *substantially* more crushing in the initial years than being a pilot ever will be. The good news is that when you're being destroyed by 80+ hour work weeks for 5 years, you don't have time to reflect on the fact that your effective hourly income is less than minimum wage. :p
 
kayoh190 said:
I'd be willing to bet that the first 5 years at today's regional will pay better than 5 years at a general surgery residency. Actually, as someone who runs the finances for a general surgery resident, I'm sure it does, and she makes more than the average resident because of where we live. That's to say nothing about her medical school costing 4-5x what it takes to go from Zero to CFI.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that regional pay is adequate, but my wife's path to being a surgeon is *substantially* more crushing in the initial years than being a pilot ever will be. The good news is that when you're being destroyed by 80+ hour work weeks for 5 years, you don't have time to reflect on the fact that your effective hourly income is less than minimum wage. :p
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I think there are a lot of factors that play into it. Not to get too "deep" but medicine still holds this romantic mystique to it. I worry that aviation has lost a bit of that.

I guess my point of all this was; if the airlines really are in a shortage there are ways to attract talent that don't strictly revolve around the 1,500 hr rule


Trust me.. I live pretty much right under the MAP for SAN 27. It's a constant struggle, "do I ditch the job/lifestyle and go after that?" but so far the pendulum hasn't swung hard enough to push me over that edge
 
Tantalum said:
I think there are a lot of factors that play into it. Not to get too "deep" but medicine still holds this romantic mystique to it. I worry that aviation has lost a bit of that.
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I'd argue that anyone that goes into this business because of some notion of romantic mystique is bound to be bitterly disappointed. That said if you ask my wife about the 'romance' of her job, she'd tell you it's a hell of a lot closer to Scrubs than it is to Grey's Anatomy! :)

But to your point - I agree completely that the solution to the shortage is on the pay side. Arguing about the 1500 hour rule is just kicking the can down the road, IMO.
 
Tantalum said:
No one forced that pilot to do the mission she did ...
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It's funny you used that phrasing. It's one that makes my ears perk up. I fly for an overnight delivery company. Managing rest and fatigue is the hardest part of my job. We also have a large percentage of pilots that have an exclusive military background (although we're improving the ratio of civilian-trained pilots to military-trained ones). It takes a very long time (if it even ever happens) to get the military guys and gals out of the "mission" mindset. There is no "mission" at work. There is no overarching reason to fly fatigued or do something dangerous in a misguided quest to "complete the mission." There are no bombs that have to be put on target, there are no receivers in critical need of fuel, no FOB that needs supplies airlifted in. Once guys and gals get it in their head that it's okay to call in fatigued and the world isn't going to crumble, people start making safer decisions about their ability to fly.

Tantalum said:
If there are misconceptions out there then it's up to the airlines and those in the industry to change those.
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And that's what the airlines guys on here try to do, but like @Doc Holliday pointed out, a lot of the time they get argued with, telling them "how it really is" because of what they overheard an airline pilot say at a barbecue.

Tantalum said:
After all, perception is reality.. and what many were told for a long time was "you'll make more money flipping burgers and your life is going to suck for 5 years; you'll probably get divorced.. but hey by the time you're 50 if you've survived long enough through the industry, furloughs, mental health, maybe you'll be flying a 777 and earning north of $200K" <- not a great prospect for many people entering the workforce deep in debt
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I agree, but it's changing/has changed for the better. Could the pay be better? Always. Could the schedule be better? Also always. But (maybe it's just because it's what I'm used to), but I can't imagine doing something other than what I'm doing for a living as far as pay/time off balance.

Tantalum said:
Trust me.. I live pretty much right under the MAP for SAN 27. It's a constant struggle, "do I ditch the job/lifestyle and go after that?" but so far the pendulum hasn't swung hard enough to push me over that edge
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I don't know too much about you, just from you posting on here, so it's hard to say, but I fly with a lot of "later in life" pilots that got their starts after being in a established career for a while and they made it to my airline with still a good amount of years ahead of them before mandatory retirement.
 
kayoh190 said:
Scrubs
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..love that show! Never got into Grey's or ER but there's something very human to Scrubs. We just started rewatching them all at home

Sluggo63 said:
I don't know too much about you, just from you posting on here, so it's hard to say, but I fly with a lot of "later in life" pilots that got their starts after being in a established career for a while and they made it to my airline with still a good amount of years ahead of them before mandatory retirement.
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Thanks.. I'll be making some life choice this year.. I've passed the 35 mark :(
 
Tantalum said:
...I live pretty much right under the MAP for SAN 27. It's a constant struggle, "do I ditch the job/lifestyle and go after that?" but so far the pendulum hasn't swung hard enough to push me over that edge
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Ah man, now I'm jealous and I hate you; you're within walking distance of one of my favorite beer joints, Bottlecraft. Good stuff on draft and a gazillion bottles/cans to take home.

But, there's a bonus to being an airline pilot AND a beer geek; I get to travel the country in search of good beer!
 
Tantalum said:
..love that show! Never got into Grey's or ER but there's something very human to Scrubs. We just started rewatching them all at home


Thanks.. I'll be making some life choice this year.. I've passed the 35 mark :(
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That’s definitely not too old. We have new hires in their mid and late 50s. Never thought I’d see that.
 
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