Because your competition has their Hobbs on an oil pressure switch (the vast majority of rentals I've flown were rigged this way) and your customers will become theirs.
Reducing Hobbs/CFI time during training
- Thread starter Jason608
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Because your competition has their Hobbs on an oil pressure switch (the vast majority of rentals I've flown were rigged this way) and your customers will become theirs.
John Collins
En-Route
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Most customers would never notice.
The rental I manage is on the master switch. I tell everyone that during checkouts so they're aware. It'll make no difference as to the time they pay as long as they know it works that way. It's not a big enough issue to spend money to move it to oil pressure.
I bet if you put it on an air switch and advertise that fact, your business will increase.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Doubt it. We're already the best value by a wide margin and there are additional benefits that sell real well. You can schedule our plane online, go to the airport at 2am and they'll pull it out for you, launch on a cross country to another state, and do all that without asking permission from anyone. It's important to me to give the renters freedom whereas the competitor requires you get keys from a CFI each time you fly and it there is no CFI available you're not going flying. Last minute, outside of business hours flights simply aren't possible with them.
Combine that with instruction at half their hourly rate and aircraft rental $30 to $40 hr less we're doing just fine.
John Collins
En-Route
Practice will make perfect. You will get faster as you go along. If you are concerned about expenses, here are a few tips to minimize your training costs.
1) Fly regularly. You waste a lot of time and money bringing your proficiency back up to what it was a week or two ago.
2) If money is the issue, it is better to finance your flight training expenses and pay for them over a longer period of time. This may give you the freedom to accomplish #1. What you pay extra in interest is way offset by your reduced flight time.
3) You and your instructor should have a solid plan or curriculum to follow. If your instructor doesn't follow a plan, it is likely that much of your time will be wasted. Edit: Both you and your instructor should have a clear view of what is expected and what the plan is. If you don't know what you have to accomplish, it will mean you won't know if you are wasting your time.
4) When it comes to solo time, minimize it as close as possible to the legal requirements. Most solo time beyond that mandated is wasted time. You are much better off to fly with the instructor. In my experience, most students need at least 30+ hours of instruction. Students don't focus on practicing stuff, particularly stuff they don't like to do, so there is a tendency for students to fly solo and accomplish very little. So IMHO, you might as well practice with an instructor on board. You can end up with a pilot certificate in 45 to 50 hours with a minimum of solo or 65 to 75 hours with a bunch of solo. The difference between the two scenarios, is that at 75 hours you will most likely have your pilots certificate, but one pilot just got his, and the other has had it for 30 hours and flew his solo time as a certified pilot.
On the subject of keeping the ground time to a minimum, much of this is related to being organized before you start the engine.
1) Fly regularly. You waste a lot of time and money bringing your proficiency back up to what it was a week or two ago.
2) If money is the issue, it is better to finance your flight training expenses and pay for them over a longer period of time. This may give you the freedom to accomplish #1. What you pay extra in interest is way offset by your reduced flight time.
3) You and your instructor should have a solid plan or curriculum to follow. If your instructor doesn't follow a plan, it is likely that much of your time will be wasted. Edit: Both you and your instructor should have a clear view of what is expected and what the plan is. If you don't know what you have to accomplish, it will mean you won't know if you are wasting your time.
4) When it comes to solo time, minimize it as close as possible to the legal requirements. Most solo time beyond that mandated is wasted time. You are much better off to fly with the instructor. In my experience, most students need at least 30+ hours of instruction. Students don't focus on practicing stuff, particularly stuff they don't like to do, so there is a tendency for students to fly solo and accomplish very little. So IMHO, you might as well practice with an instructor on board. You can end up with a pilot certificate in 45 to 50 hours with a minimum of solo or 65 to 75 hours with a bunch of solo. The difference between the two scenarios, is that at 75 hours you will most likely have your pilots certificate, but one pilot just got his, and the other has had it for 30 hours and flew his solo time as a certified pilot.
On the subject of keeping the ground time to a minimum, much of this is related to being organized before you start the engine.
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John Collins
En-Route
It is good that you haven't flown with me, I charge strictly by the hour or day. By the hour means by my watch and I charge for ground and waiting time at the same rate as flight time.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I tried that when I first started instructing since that's how every other business works. That seemed to upset too many people. As a result I just increased my hourly rate to offset the time I can't bill and people are happier ever though the dollar they pay me is basically the same.
poadeleted20
Deleted
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I'll differ with John on this. I think there is considerable value to the solo time, especially solo XC. I think the absence of the instructor builds confidence and helps the trainee later on after passing the practical test -- and even on that test, where you have to make decisions on your own in the face of what most applicants perceive as a rather threatening presence in the right seat. Further, my experience giving post-PP training is that those with more "real" PIC time (as in "no instructor or other more experienced pilot in the plane") do better in transition and/or instrument training. Yes, you can save money towards your PP by flying only the minimum solo time, but I think it hurts you in other ways later on, and if you're going for your IR later, you're going to have to fly those XC PIC hours anyway.
Hank S
En-Route
When you fly solo, plan out what each flight is for--practice slow flight; cross check VORs and plot your house in the sectional; turns around a point; track VOR; etc. write it down, then go do it and head back to the airport.
If you don't make a list and stick to it, you'll spend time farting around, sightseeing, accumulating flight time and accomplishing nothing.
This was the best advice I received as a student pilot, and it worked well for me.
If you don't make a list and stick to it, you'll spend time farting around, sightseeing, accumulating flight time and accomplishing nothing.
This was the best advice I received as a student pilot, and it worked well for me.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Out of curiosity I timed how long it took my student from engine start to wheels in the air today. It took 12 minutes, this was his second lesson, and we are at a class c airport. Aircraft is a 172.
Clip4
Final Approach
And even if turning the master off disable the hobbs, are you going to disable the tach too?
John Collins
En-Route
I am all for those same solo hours, just as a certificated pilot instead of a student pilot where they do so little.
I fly steam-gauge airplanes out of a towered airport with a single runway and a parallel taxiway with the ramp at the midpoint. At the beginning of the block, we may have anywhere from 5-10 airplanes leaving and arriving at once. My students take anywhere from 6-16 minutes from Hobbs ticking to wheels up.
The ones who take the minimum time know the layout of the panel and what to say on the radio. It takes experience, but what helps immensely is ground-study. The plane is free for those who want to sit in the cockpit and run through checklists finding everything on the panel. Our tower is on LiveATC.net, so they can listen to live communications and get exposed to the phraseology. Also, knowing the frequencies cold prevents sitting on the ramp with the avionics on and the engine running trying to remember what ATIS is.
The ones who take the minimum time know the layout of the panel and what to say on the radio. It takes experience, but what helps immensely is ground-study. The plane is free for those who want to sit in the cockpit and run through checklists finding everything on the panel. Our tower is on LiveATC.net, so they can listen to live communications and get exposed to the phraseology. Also, knowing the frequencies cold prevents sitting on the ramp with the avionics on and the engine running trying to remember what ATIS is.
No! I'dhappily pay on tach, I can do better on the tach than a Hobbs on an air switch unless it's a forever wait to get cleared for take off.
dans2992
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Dans2992
One thing I wish my primary instructor had stressed is to use the checklist to CHECK that something was done, not a "do list".
Now that I've developed some flows and follow up with a checklist, things go much faster.
cirrusmx
Line Up and Wait
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always tought that charging hobbs time is not beneficial to both renter and fbo. Renter gets raped if they have to wait for clearance or any atc delays while the engine is barely burning fuel and wearing down from idling. The FBO losses because people are prone to fly on FULL RENTAL POWER. after all, why not? the fbo rate accounts for a certain fuel flow rate so why should a renter use any less than what they are already paying. in addition, planes tend to get more abuse as people are most of the time rushed to carry on with the flight. tach time or flight time tend to be more representative of the direct operating costs.
regarding cfi time. i would never pay a cfi for pre or post flight time unless they are teaching me something i did not already know. the cfi market supply is plentiful.
regarding cfi time. i would never pay a cfi for pre or post flight time unless they are teaching me something i did not already know. the cfi market supply is plentiful.
The only time I was charged by instructors was Hobbs. I was never charged for pre and post flight briefs.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I may have had one customer upset about billing for the block of time we spent in four years or so, and he was a serious cheapskate. If you are giving the student a good value for the time and money and let them know how it works up front it's not a big deal either way. Usually, the higher end customers understand business and the value of an instructors time better. I had one business owner tell me at the end that I should have done MORE ground school with him and looking back he would have been happy to pay for it. The cheaper customers and broke college student types are less concerned with quality and hurt themselves by not taking advantage of ground time effectively, then whine and complain about the costs.
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jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
My instructor bills for pre and post briefs. I feel like those are the most valuable times other than in the plane and I am happy to pay. Some CFIs don't even do a pre and post briefing.
brian109
Pre-takeoff checklist
Hey not trying to butt in here but as a brand new spanking nugget I have to agree with the post above. I can understand wanting to save money but preflight and run up are huge and I wouldn't want to screw anything up.
Clear skies and good luck
cirrusmx
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campoalavista
the problem with ground time in primary training is that if you read the manuals, faa literature, and follow a dvd course then it is almost redundant.
nosehair
Cleared for Takeoff
Well yeah, if your instructor is just rotely repeating the referenced material, but he/ she should be, first checking that you have read and can apply the info, then personalizing the generic info to your individual airplane, airport, training environment, personal rate of learning, etc., etc., etc.
Comes down to feeling like you are getting something valuable in the pre/ post instruction.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
And the instructor is legally required to sign off that your training is complete, so he has to check / sample / test your knowledge on the subject matter even if you say you already know it. I've had a student fail who was an air force crewmember who assured me he knew everything about the weather... and didn't, and the examiner figured it out pretty quickly.
MSPAviator
Cleared for Takeoff
I listen to the ATIS, set ground and tower frequencies in the radio with the engine off.
If I'm at an untowered field and there is a single plane on the downwind I will wait for them to land and taxi off before starting my engine.
Both are strategies to minimize unnecessary ground engine idling time.
If I'm at an untowered field and there is a single plane on the downwind I will wait for them to land and taxi off before starting my engine.
Both are strategies to minimize unnecessary ground engine idling time.
nosehair
Cleared for Takeoff
These are all good strategies for learning situational awareness. Not even considering hobbs saving time, learning the preparation is priceless. Every teeny bit of gas, or engine wear I don't have to do gets me just a few feet closer to my destination airport.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
But warming up the engine isn't bad, either, especially in the winter. You can damage an engine by not letting it warm up the oil on a cold morning. Some people are just too cheap.