Reckless Driving Ticket

Sorry, I got so caught up in my story that I forgot to answer the question...

(emphasis added)

If the driver improvement school was related to a specific offense, then you have to report it. For example, if the judge says "your fine for this ticket is $100 and 2 points. If you take driver school, you won't get the points."

In Virginia, driver improvement school is an option for anybody at any time, and always gives you a 2 point credit. So I could take the ticket and points, and a month later go to driver school, and get 2 points credit, and end up right back where I started. The difference in my second example is that the court didn't offer me a plea bargain - school for points - but I chose on my own to do it. I wouldn't have to report this.

Regardless, if it's a simple speeding ticket, your AME will ask you to explain, and then quickly move on when you give him the explanation. If you want to be paranoid, and don't mind wasting $10, get a print out of your DMV record. I did when I went for my medical because I have a very old (20+ years) suspension, and I was afraid he would defer me to research it. But in the end he could not have possibly cared less and didn't want to see my paperwork even after I offered it to him.

You don't have to report it unless they end up suspending your license or taking it away. In any event in VA 20 mph over any speed limit is considered reckless (keep that in mind for the future), but you should have no problem getting this reduced. If you don't you are still fine and don't report it because there is no pattern and it wasn't suspended. Simply go to court and ask to plead no contest for a reduction to speeding 19 over and traffic school and you'll be done.
 
The question on the form says "as a result," not "mandatory." The fact that you had several options does not change the fact that but for the traffic infraction, you would never have attended that educational program.
. . . .

That would be difficult to prove unless FAA can establish that they have the ability to read minds.

I take a driver training course every three years, and I haven't had a single point-bearing ticket on my license in... 24 years.

So if a month before I take the next course, I happen to get a ticket for not making a full stop at a stop sign; and then I take the same course that I've been taking every three years for the past 30 years, the course suddenly becomes reportable, even though what they allege would be the underlying offense wasn't?

It is because the FAA sees a correlation in pilots between bad decisions behind the wheel and bad decisions in the air. If your traffic offense history is sufficient to motivate the state which issued your DL to give you some remedial driver training, the FAA wants to look at the situation further in order to determine whether your judgment and decision-making are bad enough to create a flying safety concern.

Soo.... does FAA have evidence to demonstrate that a driver who voluntarily chooses to take a driver improvement course is more likely to have poor judgment and exercise poor decision-making skills than one who just says "**** it" and eats the points?

-Rich
 
So one concensus is that if you go to a traffic school you must report regardless of the reason for attending. The other is that only if revocation or denial of a license are at stake. I'm with the latter camp on this one.

Scenario 1: You make an illegal u-turn. No alcohol or drugs involved, no administrative action is being taken against your ability to keep your license. I pay the fine and move on with life. Non-reportable.

Scenario 2: Same as above, except rather than paying a fine you chose to attend the traffic school. I still see that as non-reportable. It is not in lieu of action against your license it is in its intent paying a fine. It really is only to prevent your insurance premiums from increasing.

In Arizona the traffic school you attend in the case of license suspension or revocation is called Traffic Survival School, that would be reportable. Defensive Driving School is what one would attend in lieu of paying a larger fine. In Arizona you are only allowed to attend the Defensive Driving School once every two years. It would be impossible for someone to attend that school enough to prevent suspension or revocation if they were a truly reckless driver.
 
The question on the form says "as a result," not "mandatory." The fact that you had several options does not change the fact that but for the traffic infraction, you would never have attended that educational program.

It is because the FAA sees a correlation in pilots between bad decisions behind the wheel and bad decisions in the air. If your traffic offense history is sufficient to motivate the state which issued your DL to give you some remedial driver training, the FAA wants to look at the situation further in order to determine whether your judgment and decision-making are bad enough to create a flying safety concern.


I don't live in VA, have never driven there, and have no idea whether this is true or not. But that's what I gather from post #25 in this thread. And if it's true, and that really is the FAA's position on this, then it's totally ridiculous.

No, this is Ron Levy's position on this. Ron does not speak on behalf of anyone at the FAA nor does he hold any position within the FAA. He is giving you his interpretation as he sees it.
 
No, this is Ron Levy's position on this. Ron does not speak on behalf of anyone at the FAA nor does he hold any position within the FAA. He is giving you his interpretation as he sees it.

In fairness to Ron, I highly value his opinions on all matters regulatory because his are usually the positions that will practically guarantee that you don't get into trouble. His opinions, in my opinion, represent the straight-and-narrow.

This is valuable information because if you want to play near the edge, you have to first know where the edge is. Ron draws the line on the conservative side of things, which is a good place to start, IMHO.

-Rich
 
No, this is Ron Levy's position on this. Ron does not speak on behalf of anyone at the FAA nor does he hold any position within the FAA. He is giving you his interpretation as he sees it.
Oh, of course I know that. I think just about everyone here knows it too, by now. That's why I wrote that big qualifying "if". I probably should have repeated it a couple times just for good measure. ;)
 
And that logic would make sense if you were specifically offered the remedial training as an option because of your specific infraction. But it sounds as if the OP lives in a state where the remedial training is ALWAYS an option and you get credit for it to offset points on your record whether you need them or not. In that case there is no demonstrable connection between any specific infraction and attendance at remedial training, so how said attendance would have any bearing on your judgment and decision making is beyond me.

I don't live in VA, have never driven there, and have no idea whether this is true or not. But that's what I gather from post #25 in this thread. And if it's true, and that really is the FAA's position on this, then it's totally ridiculous.
I have explained the FAA's thinking on this issue. You are entitled to hold a different opinion from the FAA, but unlike your opinion, the FAA's opinion on this issue carries legal weight.
 
No, this is Ron Levy's position on this. Ron does not speak on behalf of anyone at the FAA nor does he hold any position within the FAA. He is giving you his interpretation as he sees it.
No, I am giving you the FAA's position as explained to me by several people inside the FAA and others associated with the medical certification process. I have not presented my personal interpretation on this matter -- in fact, I don't have one. All I give from my own perspective is my advice to err on the side of caution when it comes to filling out FAA Form 8500-8, as the FAA treats failure to disclose something the FAA considers reportable very harshly, while reporting something that need not be disclosed is almost invariably a non-issue.

That said, I realize that there are a lot of people who believe that what they wish were true, is true, unless the FAA actually takes them to task for acting on their beliefs, and the advice of anyone who says otherwise can be ignored if it doesn't fit with the way they wish things were, and feel it necessary to demean those who so advise them. As this is a free country, they are free to act on those beliefs, but the consequences of such action may be serious.

Y'all do what you want, but if you get hammered by the FAA for doing something against which I advised, you have only yourself to blame.
 
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No, I am giving you the FAA's position as explained to me by several people inside the FAA and others associated with the medical certification process. I have not presented my personal interpretation on this matter -- in fact, I don't have one. All I give from my own perspective is my advice to err on the side of caution when it comes to filling out FAA Form 8500-8, as the FAA treats failure to disclose something the FAA considers reportable very harshly, while reporting something that need not be disclosed is almost invariably a non-issue.

That said, I realize that there are a lot of people who believe that what they wish were true, is true, unless the FAA actually takes them to task for acting on their beliefs, and the advice of anyone who says otherwise can be ignored if it doesn't fit with the way they wish things were, and feel it necessary to demean those who so advise them. As this is a free country, they are free to act on those beliefs, but the consequences of such action may be serious.

Y'all do what you want, but if you get hammered by the FAA for doing something against which I advised, you have only yourself to blame.

Again, without actual documentation it falls down to being your opinion, nothing official, nothing else.
 
No, I am giving you the FAA's position as explained to me by several people inside the FAA and others associated with the medical certification process. I have not presented my personal interpretation on this matter -- in fact, I don't have one. All I give from my own perspective is my advice to err on the side of caution when it comes to filling out FAA Form 8500-8, as the FAA treats failure to disclose something the FAA considers reportable very harshly, while reporting something that need not be disclosed is almost invariably a non-issue.

That said, I realize that there are a lot of people who believe that what they wish were true, is true, unless the FAA actually takes them to task for acting on their beliefs, and the advice of anyone who says otherwise can be ignored if it doesn't fit with the way they wish things were, and feel it necessary to demean those who so advise them. As this is a free country, they are free to act on those beliefs, but the consequences of such action may be serious.

Y'all do what you want, but if you get hammered by the FAA for doing something against which I advised, you have only yourself to blame.

How can you take them seriously when the bureaucracy thinks driving school is a medical issue.......?
 
Again, without actual documentation it falls down to being your opinion, nothing official, nothing else.
With all your FAA contacts, if I am misquoting those in the FAA with whom I have communicated, you should have no trouble providing official contradiction of what I was told. If not, quit insulting me and bugger off.
 
With all your FAA contacts, if I am misquoting those in the FAA with whom I have communicated, you should have no trouble providing official contradiction of what I was told. If not, quit insulting me and bugger off.

OK , once again you put on your "sciolist hat" and try to convince people here your opinion is the only one that matters. I offered a difference of opinion, which is you are offering your opinions as fact with no basis, no documentation, just the same old tired "I'm a FAA insider" BS line to promote your own ideology.

If this mattered to me yes I could make a few calls and get official information, but so could the readers here also. You are not some special elevated person the FAA has entrusted with high level information that no one is allowed to dispute.

Finally, no one is "insulting" you, just offering fact which somehow, someway disturbs you.

Your final comment to "bugger off" because someone has a different opinion speaks volumes. Ever read the fable "The Emperor has No Clothes"?
 
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This isn't directly related to any other post, but I'd like to point out that, according to "The National Driver Registry Act of 1982":
"There shall be no access to information in the Register under this paragraph if such information was entered in the Register more than 3 years before the date of such request, unless such information relates to revocations or suspensions which are still in effect on the date of the request."
Assuming that law hasn't been changed in the mean time, I take it that the FAA would not legally be allowed to use the NDR to verify any expired motor vehicle actions you were involved in more than three years prior to filling out the 8500-8 or MedXPress. They'd no doubt have to use some other more expensive verification mechanism if they had some motivation.
 
This isn't directly related to any other post, but I'd like to point out that, according to "The National Driver Registry Act of 1982":
"There shall be no access to information in the Register under this paragraph if such information was entered in the Register more than 3 years before the date of such request, unless such information relates to revocations or suspensions which are still in effect on the date of the request."
Assuming that law hasn't been changed in the mean time, I take it that the FAA would not legally be allowed to use the NDR to verify any expired motor vehicle actions you were involved in more than three years prior to filling out the 8500-8 or MedXPress. They'd no doubt have to use some other more expensive verification mechanism if they had some motivation.

Under both U.S. law and ICAO requirements, they're not supposed to publish your medical status, either. But they do.

From the ICAO Medical Manual:
It is important that medical confidentiality is respected at all times. Medical information is of a sensitive nature, and a person who has undergone a medical examination for issuance or renewal of his licence has a right to expect that such information is kept confidential and disclosed only to medical officials. In many States a separate medical section is established, either within the authority or attached to it. Medical confidentiality is best assured when this medical section, where the reports from the medical examiners are received and evaluated, is headed by a physician and has its own staff, its own channels of communication, its own filing system, etc. If the medical section is a sub-part of another non-medical section and thus shares office space, office staff and files with that section, medical confidentiality becomes untenable.
I don't see, "Posting a pilot's medical status on the Internet for the whole world to read is okay" in there.

-Rich
 
The sad part about them publishing medical data is that it'd be maybe a page worth of code to make the system e-mail pilots for permission for each release of medical data. "XYZ has requested your medical status, do you approve release of this information?" yes/no.

Brain dead simple.
 
No, they told you that if attendance was purely voluntary (and they went to some length to emphasize that point) it was not reportable. That's not the same as what you said above, and is subject to FAA interpretation. If you're doing it to take off your record points that were assessed because of a conviction, the FAA can still consider that not purely voluntary, and say it's a result of the conviction.

SMH. We can just agree to disagree on this one. And the fact that the letter was referred by Counsel to the Aeromedical branch who answered it. I believe this is the closest anyone's gotten to an actual opinion in writing from FAA HQ on whether you have to report a non-mandatory school.

Ron, the FAA can consider something anyway it wants. And you're right in that if your logic is followed there'w no chance you'll get in trouble for non-reporting. But that same logic is what drives security folks to say "You want a secure computer? Turn it off and destroy the storage." It's absolutely correct but not terribly useful in getting anything done.
 

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Sorry I am correct in practice. My wife got a reckless for less than 15 over (81 in 70) and I've seen reductions in both Fairfax and Loudon GDCs by pro se defendants. I've also got pulled over for speeds in the reckless range w/o getting one. It's not automatic. The lawyer is not correct in general. It may be true in his local GDC but not across the commonwealth. As I stated, it would behoove you to find out about the court you are summons to.
 
SMH. We can just agree to disagree on this one. And the fact that the letter was referred by Counsel to the Aeromedical branch who answered it. I believe this is the closest anyone's gotten to an actual opinion in writing from FAA HQ on whether you have to report a non-mandatory school.



"The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation."
 
My mother taught me to keep my nose out of other people's business. I was a horrible child.
"sciolist hat"
I totally had to look that word up. I'm so using it. Thanks.
Your final comment to "bugger off" because someone has a different opinion speaks volumes. Ever read the fable "The Emperor has No Clothes"?
Dude. Don't insult The Dane. He's my hero! It was "The Emperor's New Clothes".
 
General Counsel said:
Item 18v aims to discover a history or pattern of driving behaviors that would indicate a propensity toward risky pilot behaviors hazardous to the safety of the national air space. Driving while intoxicated by alcohol or other substances clearly applies. But other driving arrests or convictions that are severe enough to result in mandatory educational/rehabilitation programs or in suspension/revocation of driving privileges also raise concern. The situation in which you describe taking a driver education course strictly on your own volition would not be need to be reported under 18v, even if related to a traffic citation.
Emphasis mine. I usually cringe when people write letters to the General Counsel but this one actually seems to have gotten us some clarity. I never thought I'd say it, but this time, the government's position on something actually makes sense.
 
Well, I guess I can qualify as a POA veteran, because I've gotten into a legal debate with Ron. ;)

I took the weekend off from the Internet, and in the mean time, I see that there has been quite a lot of discussion here on this topic. First I want to clear up a few things: I am not the OP, I have never been charged with reckless driving, I do not have an attorney (nor have I consulted one on this topic), nor am I an attorney. I am, however, someone with significant professional experience with the traffic laws of Virginia, how they are enforced, and the interaction between the General District Court (which hears cases involving traffic infractions and misdemeanors) and the state DMV.

I'm going to try one more time to explain how the Virginia Demerit Point System works, and why I do not think voluntary traffic school is reportable for Virginia residents. Please use the sources I cite to draw your own conclusions, and decide what is right for you.

The original OP asked about reckless driving, which is a huge PITA in Virginia. There is a cattle call of offenses that can get you charged with reckless driving in Virginia, including passing someone on the top of a grade or at a curve, passing two abreast, and even failing to use turn signals. The one that gets most people is 46.2-862, which automatically gives you reckless driving if you are exceeding the speed limit by more than 20MPH, or traveling at a speed in excess of 80MPH, regardless of the speed limit. The penalties for reckless driving are severe. First, you must appear in General District Court - there is no prepayment option. In Virginia, reckless driving is a http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-868class 1 misdemeanor, and the penalties for a class 1 misdemeanor are up to 12 months in jail, and a $2500 fine. In addition, 46.2-392 states that your license may be suspended for up to six months if convicted for reckless driving.

The only case where the court may compel someone to attend any kind of class is also contained in 46.2-392. If the reckless driving charge is alcohol or drug related, the court may compel the defendant to attend an alcohol safety program.

First point: if a person was convicted of reckless driving related to drugs or alcohol, and was compelled by the court to attend a alcohol safety program, this would clearly be reportable to the FAA.

The Virginia code relegates the entire demerit point system to the DMV. 46.2-492 defines the system, and lists specific point values for 15 traffic offenses. All other offenses are left to the Commissioner of the DMV to assign a point value. The points assessed per conviction are set by the DMV. The court does not ever compel you to attend driver improvement training as part of any standard traffic offense (speeding, etc.), nor can they offer to reduce the fine or points if you attend. The only case where you can be compelled to attend is if the DMV orders you to do so, which they will do if you accumulate enough demerit points. The thresholds and other rules are found in 46.2-498. Note however, that this is the DMV compelling you to do so, not the court, and so the only consequence of not attending is that your license is suspended. This is not court-ordered, so there are no additional court fines or other legal penalties.

Second point: If you get enough speeding tickets that one of them triggers the process specified in 46.2-498, you have to report that to the FAA, because now the DMV is compelling you to attend, in order to keep your license.

The way it works in Virginia is that if you are found guilty (or admit guilt and pre-pay) for a standard traffic code violation (NOTE: reckless driving does not fit this description, as it is a criminal misdemeanor, not a violation of the traffic code), the judge has no ability to change your punishment. The punishments for standard traffic offenses are pre-set. The General District Court has a schedule of fines, and the DMV has a schedule of demerit points. The only way that the judge can affect your punishment is by reducing the charge. This is pretty common, for example, a person who was speeding 10-14 MPH over the limit (a 4-point violation) can get convicted of 1-9 over (a 3-point violation) by begging for the court's mercy.

Note something important about the above example. The judge can't find you guilty of speeding 10-14, and offer you a deal where they only assess 3 points. In order to give you a break on the points, they have to reduce the charge that you are found guilty of.

So, if you are found guilty, the record goes to the DMV, who assess the preset number of points on your record. In Virginia, an individual's point balance can be either negative or positive. Drivers earn one positive point for each year they do not get a ticket. A driver can also get positive points for attending a state-approved driver improvement course. But if you do so, this shows up clearly on your record as two transactions: one where you get negative points for whatever infraction you were found guilty of, and one where you get positive points for attending the driving school. You can also attend driving school independent of an infraction, just for the purpose of increasing your positive point balance. And if you do want to "offset" negative points received due to a conviction, you can do so at any time, 1 month, 1 year, or 5 years after the conviction. In short, the points system is completely separate from the judicial system, and except in very limited (and specifically described in the state code) circumstances, the judge can not "sentence" you to traffic school.

Third Point: Except in limited circumstances, the courts can not sentence you to a mandatory driver improvement course. The fact that the point system is not administered by the court, that the court reports infractions to the DMV regardless of your intent to attend a school, and that school attendance is optional for all drivers (wether convicted of a traffic offense or not), all support the assertion that traffic school is not reportable for Virginia drivers.

Here's the final wrinkle: The court can offer to postpone the verdict until after you attend traffic school. If they do so, the verdict is not rendered at the initial trial. You are given 90 days to complete a traffic school, and you must reappear in court. At the second trial, you give your evidence to the judge that you completed the school, and if the judge is satisfied, they will dismiss the charge. This is different (in my opinion) than a plea-bargain which reduces the points in exchange for attending traffic school. The Chief Counsel uses the language "severe enough to result in mandatory educational/rehabilitation program" in the opinion quoted below. I'm doubt he would consider traffic school in exchange for dropping a 10-14MPH over the limit speeding ticket "severe".

Fourth Point: Agreeing to attend driver school in exchange for a dismissal is not "mandatory" and does not need to be reported to the FAA. Such a decision is "voluntary" and, per the opinion quoted below, does not need to be reported.

If you've stuck with me this far, thanks. Ron, I understand your perspective, but I disagree with it. I hope this doesn't make me a less intelligent aviator in your opinion. I will comply with whatever the FAA requires, but I have no intention of providing them one ounce of information more than that which they require, and I think I've done an exhaustive review of their requirements and Virginia law, and I have formed my opinion, including your feedback, and that of others. Other aviators are free to agree with me, or disagree with me.
 
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