Rebate Flight?

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by MBDiagMan, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Can someone who has been through the ADS-B Rebate process, summarize the steps for the registration, the outline of the flight and so forth. This will hopefully be helpful to many in addition to myself. I should get the piggy back next week with transponder installed and ready for the process.
     
  2. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think we need a sticky. Look at the past few threads. We were just discussing this. Good luck, I am heading up for my flight this week.
     
  3. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    @texasag93 recently did this for our club's Bonanza... hopefully he will be able to comment.
     
  4. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The FAA outlines this pretty well:
    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/
    Scroll down to the "steps"

    As for the validation flight, I just did practice approaches at a local class C, then just to be sure did about 5-10 minutes of 360's above their airspace. It worked for me and I got my money yesterday.
     
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  5. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

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    December issue of AOPA Pilot has a good article on the rebate and the validation flight.
     
  6. AK737pilot

    AK737pilot Pre-Flight

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    Following along. I’m just about done with my install and will be doing my validation/rebate flight in a couple weeks!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  7. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have seen a guy fly through a Class B for 30 minutes without even maneuvering and it qualified. It’s automated, so just being in rule airspace for 30 minutes without dropping out works. However, there are stated requirements that you are supposed to do, so I don’t recommend not following the guidelines.
     
  8. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    (copied from my post on another thread...)

    Here's the quickie maneuver checklist I made for doing these flights that has worked swimmingly:

    ADS-B test flight:
    • Take off
    • Climb: Vy, at least one minute
    • Climbing: 2 left and 2 right 360º turns at 3000-5000 feet AGL, Vy, 30 degrees bank
    • Cruise: 2 left and 2 right 360º turns at 7000-10,000 feet AGL, Va, 30 degrees bank
    • Fly north/south course that crosses defined waypoint followed by east/west course crossing same waypoint
    • Descent: Cruise config, Vne-10, at least a minute
    • Descent: 2 left and 2 right 360º turns at 7000-2000 feet AGL, 1.4x Vs, 30 degrees bank
    • Approach/Landing config: Vfe-10, at least a minute
    This is based on section 4.3.2 of Advisory Circular AC 20-165B - Airworthiness Approval of Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast OUT Systems which is the definitive requirement from the FAA. Oddly enough, with all of the warnings that you must fly the flight in "rule airspace" (B, C, or above 10,000), this requirement specifically states that you just need to be within the coverage of the FAA's ground network, and I have flown my flights outside rule airspace. I've seen some other references that they want to verify it using radar, so you may need to be within radar coverage as well. I've done my proving flights in the area between about KRYV and KUES and maybe 20 miles north of that line, using the BAE VOR for my "defined waypoint".

    Hope this helps... Let us know how it goes for you!
     
  9. A1Topgun

    A1Topgun Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's for "Certification".
    A rebate flight check only requires flying 30+ minute in required controlled airspace. So take-off, call control tower and tell them you are doing your ADS-B check out flight and would like to fly around at the top of their class C. After the flight, check the FAA site to verify every item has a green check mark.
    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/
    Step #4.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
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  10. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That is what I did. While maneuvering above KGSO Class C, I did my 360 degree turns, climbs, descents, crossed GSO VOR north to south and west to east. Flew 48 minutes just to be safe. Passed on first attempt. A friend passed the next week doing the same thing. If you live far from Class C or B, just climb above 10,000 feet and maneuver up there. You don't need to fly from an airport with ADS-B towers to comply. Good Luck...
     
  11. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    This is not rocket science.

    Climb to 10,500, wander around for 30 minutes.
     
  12. A1Topgun

    A1Topgun Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It is not necessary to fly all the listed maneuvers when you install an approved system. (Step #1 in the above listed FAA link.) I flew big circles around the control tower at the top of the class C. It was the fifth attempt to complete the rebate flight. It took four flights to figure out the shop did not configuring the transponder with the required information.
     
  13. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The maneuvers might not have been necessary, but I had a minimum of 30 minutes I had to fly. What else did I have to do? I passed on my first attempt.
    Plus, doing standard rate turns over our local international airport was fun .
     
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  14. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yet, it seems like all kinds of people still have problems passing their check flight... Using my checklist, I have passed every check flight, even when not flown in rule airspace.
     
  15. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Have you guys been in touch with ATC when you do these flights? The top of one nearby Charlie is at 4300 MSL. I would hate to saw around above them while sqwauking 1200.

    I wonder if flying around at 3,500 under the 4,000 floor of the outer DFW veil would work. It’s going to take a while to climb to 10,500 in the 140.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  16. ricsha91

    ricsha91 Filing Flight Plan

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    Just call ATC and tell them what you want to do. I flew my validation flight all inside a the outer ring of a class C airspace. ATC will let you know or vector you if they have approaching traffic.
    download.png
     
  17. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    I blogged about my ADS-B upgrades and rebate flight with a tracking picture of the flight. http://welch.com/n46pg/category/avionics/ The pic is at the bottom of the post.

    Advice, fly a little longer than required and perform a couple more maneuvers than needed.
     
  18. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sooooo - I failed. Bummer. Short story, called tech support and I needed to sit in my parking space for a few more minutes for the unit to get a good GPS fix before moving. Because I moved before the fix was complete, my first 29 seconds of the "flight" were not in standards and it failed the report. In the future, nobody cares if the GPS fix is complete before moving, but for the rebate report flight, it has to be "perfect".

    Also tech support told me that the rebate flight should be boring without maneuvers, just 30 minutes (in my case in the Mode C veil).

    So if you are doing your rebate flight, get your unit turned on and sit still for at least 5 minutes to make sure that all the software checks, updates, and GPS locks are complete before moving or you may waste the flight like I did.
     
  19. AK737pilot

    AK737pilot Pre-Flight

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    What unit do you have? Do some take longer than others to acquire?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Skybeacon
     
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  21. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    There ya’ go!
     
  22. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Okay, I entered my installation this morning and got my number. I lucked out because the shop sent in the paperwork. I entered today as installation day and he also entered today for installation date, so I think I’m good if I can just get in a good flight. I read that if you don’t take off from an airport under the veil, get under the veil as soon as possible after takeoff. Since I am about 75 NM from the veil I guess I will fly to the nearest airport, land and take off and then spend a solid thirty minutes in the air before leaving the area and heading home.
     
  23. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That is not a bad idea. I may just do that for the next flight. Perhaps because my airport was far enough away, the position and reporting had a hard time for the first minute and caught up, but apparently 29 seconds is enough for a fail on the report. I may even go to the airport, fly around for 30 minutes, land, request the report, and then take off back home.
     
  24. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Absolutely ! :)
     
  25. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    From my reading it appears that if you are under the veil of a Bravo, you’re good. Climbing on top in a Cessna 140 doesn’t sound all that great so I plan on flying at 3,500’ under the veil where the bottom is 4,000’. For this in the DFW area, I plan to fly back and forth and maneuver in the area between McKinney and Mesquite airports over Ray Hubbard and Lavon.

    I don’t know what kind of response I’ll get when I call Fort Worth Center and tell them I am doing an ADS-B validation flight. Remover I’m a boondocks pilot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  26. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    New York approach was fine with me telling them i was doing an ADSB flight. And I was probably in some approach path at least some of the time.
     
  27. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Did they give you a sqwauk code Mathew?
     
  28. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, I got FF the whole time. Just kept giving them a heads up from time to time since I was not just going point to point. You don’t have to ask permission, so I would just tell them “climbing to 7.5 and doing steep turns along the way”

    So my next steps are to startup the plane (and wait for 5 minutes before moving) and do a very short flight and get a report. That is supposed to come back clean showing that there are no issues. Then I will fly to the mode c veil and land at an airport (Greenwood lakes). Shut down and turn back on, wait 5 minutes or more to see that the gps has a good lock and do a 30 minute flight. Land and get my report before going back home.
     
  29. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    After an ADSB-out install, can you just fly your plane as-is and then do a proving flight a few days later, or are you obligated to do the test on the first flight out of the shop?
     
  30. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Proving flight is just for your rebate. Nothing in the regs or anything saying that you need to do it first. When you request your GAIRS report you specify the day of your flight so it doesn't search through old flights that would have failed, so you should be good to do it whenever you'd like.
     
  31. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just did another flight. In the Mode C veil, but just cruising around gently with no specific maneuvers. I got a pass, but even using the correct website for the rebate, I did not receive a GAIRS report with a rebate code. Any updates on this from someone that experienced it before?
     
  32. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    I got the code before the flight. In fact, you are supposed to file for the code before the installation. I did it the day of the installation and everything matched and I got a reservation code. I think they are doing this trying to prevent someone with an old installation from claiming the rebate.
     
  33. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    . You have 60 days after the installation for the validation flight so I don’t think you have to do it right away.
     
  34. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was talking about the validation flight GAIRS report with a code. I reserved my rebate and have that code when I saw that my unit was shipping to me. This is an issue that others have had in the past where the correct link and page for getting a GAIRS report produces only a PAPR but no GAIRS (pass or fail, just not there). There are a few old threads on here with some info, but not definitive answer. I sent the FAA ADSB unit an email for help as others have in the past.

    My flight should meet all requirements for the rebate flight. It shows no red boxes (fails), total time was 49:00, time in rule airspace 32:00 (mode C veil)
     
  35. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    AB6177C4-AB90-4877-B752-FB31382A4975.jpeg 5C29E471-FCCE-4C50-B2C0-D4D73AD81A18.jpeg
    My 71 year old sweetheart runabout finally moved into the world of LCD and is now ready for her validation flight.
     
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  36. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Back to the validation flight.....

    A retired pilot friend who is extremely savvy about ADS-B says that he believes I can fly the validation flight away from the Bravo because we have good coverage in our area. He believes that as long as you’re being “painted,” the validation flight will be valid. As soon as I get time and weather I will try it and report results here. If it doesn’t work, the next try will be at Shreveport Charlie airspace.

    Has anyone had a successful validation flight away from rule airspace?
     
  37. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Nope. I'm quite sure I was "painted" in the training area and it failed. By the way a couple of tips with that transponder. Do NOT hit the enter button after you input the code, taxi slow enough to cheese off others behind you on the way out to the runway and come to a complete stop and observe "GND" on the transponder after you land, then taxi slowly back to your spot. Good luck. It took me three tries to get it right all because of what I told you to do and not to do.
     
  38. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The only thing I know is that the PAPR report specifically records the amount of time in Rule Airspace in addition to total flight time. Whether that actually matters in the end, who knows.

    In other news, JesseSaint got me my GAIRS report even though I could not get it. He has some sort of magic touch, even using the same link.
     
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  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes. Two of them... The only part of the flight where I was in rule airspace was the last few miles to landing, maybe 5 minutes.
     
  40. jssmith.lh

    jssmith.lh Filing Flight Plan

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    Just picked up my plane from Pippin-York after another great install job :) Moderate turbulence up high so I decided to try the flight at 6500 with flight following, about a one hour flight. Controllers could see me the entire flight. The numbers on the report all looked great but I failed the validation. The report said my total time in rule airspace was zero so it couldn't confirm my validation. Up to 10k I go.....