Reaming Valve Guildes As Preventative Maintenance

Wrong.

Anyone can work on experimental aircraft. Period. With the hangar door open or closed. ;)

No donuts needed, but greatly appreciated! :D

You should specify that you're posting concerning an experimental aircraft. When all you say is "preventative maintenance" and IO-540, it's natural to connect that with part 43 limitations for owner/operators of standard category aircraft.
 
You should specify that you're posting concerning an experimental aircraft. When all you say is "preventative maintenance" and IO-540, it's natural to connect that with part 43 limitations for owner/operators of standard category aircraft.

Not for me! :lol: ;)

It's totally un-natural for me to even think about certified aircraft, sorry. :redface: ;)

Why would anyone do that? :dunno: ;)

Just kidding! :D
 
You should specify that you're posting concerning an experimental aircraft. When all you say is "preventative maintenance" and IO-540, it's natural to connect that with part 43 limitations for owner/operators of standard category aircraft.
no it isn't. preventative maintenance means trying to fix something before it breaks. Nothing more, nothing less.

as for the rest - anyone who hasn't done the dental floss trick to ream a guide on the engine, hasn't worked on lycomings much if at all
 
I've done it on the Flybaby, not that difficult. I don't think I would do it as preventative maintenance however. Was quite easy to do with the cylinders still on. I might consider looking at all of them if I developed a problem with one.
 
FUN THREAD

disclaimer: I said that was the only foo-foo juice I could recommend - and then I get paragraphs of lecturing on the evils of 'everything' .:D.
If you are having the symptoms of morning sickness, throw a can in and try it. If it helps you are money ahead.
I do agree that MMO is a problem looking for a solution.

Incidentally long ago in a galaxy far etc. etc. etc. I was the supervising engineer for an engine test lab where we had a half dozen engine/transmission dyno sets running a simulated city-country-mountain 1500 mile test loop pulling a 6000 pound trailer, running against water cooled prony brakes 24/7 (actually de prony, but only gear heads know that)
Every once in a while 4 or 5 of them would hit the bottom of the Pikes Peak Climb at roughly the same time. The sound of those old girls all winding up and singing out full throttle (detonating, rods rattling, clutches screaming) roaring exhaust through the roof top exhaust pipes (could be heard for 3 miles) always gave me goose bumps. We would put 15,000 miles on the engine/tranny in 14 to 17 days (depending on the exact loop being run, more city stop and go took more time).
The trannys usually did good. Most engines did not make more than 4 to 5 weeks before failing - either catastrophically (bent rods was a biggie) or just plain worn out, smoking, and needing an overhaul. The Olds Rocket 88 was the best of the GM engines in that era.
Lenkite was tried on two of the dyno lines and results after a year showed increased bearing and ring life that was statistically significant (students t-test) on those two lines compared to the other four. A version of Lenkite today is called AVBLEND.
It did not (nor was it expected to) change the rate of burnt valves, bent rods, broken cranks. etc.

For those amazed or nervous at 'dropping the valves' out of the head into the cylinder - been done from the very earliest days of airplane engines. It is not even difficult. Just needs a bit of show and tell from someone who knows how. My dad had me helping him do them when I was 12, or so.
And a plain A&P (my age showing) can do it and return the engine to service and the FSDO will not even blink - for those concerned about rules..

Yep, Oldsmobiles would go 200,000 miles when everybody else's were good for 125,000. The 403 Olds Trans Am was the fastest of them.
 
Unless, of course, the plane is experimental. :D

Thanks for the tip Mr. Winters! :lol:
If the plane is Experimental, it's not "preventive maintenance" because "preventive maintenance" exists only under Part 43, which does not apply to Experimental aircraft.
(b) This part does not apply to--
(1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft; or
(2) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under the provisions of Sec. 21.191 (i)(3) of this chapter, and the aircraft was previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under the provisions of Sec.
21.190 of this chapter.
So, I'll stand by my original statement:
In any event, reaming the valve guides is not one of the things you can do yourself as "preventive maintenance".
 
no it isn't. preventative maintenance means trying to fix something before it breaks. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not in the context of the FAR's, where it is specifically defined otherwise.
Preventive maintenance means simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.
 
If the plane is Experimental, it's not "preventive maintenance" because "preventive maintenance" exists only under Part 43, which does not apply to Experimental aircraft.
So, I'll stand by my original statement:

YGTBSM me Ron. How far will you twist something to try to win an argument nobody knew they were in or cared who won.
 
YGTBSM me Ron. How far will you twist something to try to win an argument nobody knew they were in or cared who won.

You have one too many "M'"'s in there Jesse...:yes:...:D...


Ps... I need to apologize for my comments last night.. The mods sanctioned me and deleted the offensive words.....

Sorry guys / gals....:redface::redface::redface:
 
Everyone understands the context of the discussion without your help.

Really.
Don't speak for me. When someone says "preventative maintenance" I associate it with part 43 and reaming valve guides is not included. A better title for this thread would have been "Reaming Valve Guides as Prophylactic Maintenance" to avoid the Part 43 association.
 
Don't speak for me. When someone says "preventative maintenance" I associate it with part 43 and reaming valve guides is not included. A better title for this thread would have been "Reaming Valve Guides as Prophylactic Maintenance" to avoid the Part 43 association.
but when someone aske "hey, is it worth doing this to try and prevent a failure" it's seems pretty obvious he didn't start the thread to debate the FAR's
 
If the plane is Experimental, it's not "preventive maintenance" because "preventive maintenance" exists only under Part 43, which does not apply to Experimental aircraft.
So, I'll stand by my original statement:

Wrong again Kemosabi. :lol:

Im pretty sure most / all experimentals are maintained and "in full scope and detail" inspected per appendix "D" Part 43. So maintainence prevention ( or PM ) is a part of Part 43.

I'm pretty sure we talked this out before. ;)
 
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but when someone aske "hey, is it worth doing this to try and prevent a failure" it's seems pretty obvious he didn't start the thread to debate the FAR's

But when the discussion includes detailed instructions on how to do it, there needs to be clarification that this is not "preventive maintenance" in the eyes of the FAA. Lots of new pilots and owners read these posts and are likely to assume that they would be legal attempting this procedure on standard category aircraft as the consensus is the procedure is worth doing under certain circumstances.
 
But when the discussion includes detailed instructions on how to do it, there needs to be clarification that this is not "preventive maintenance" in the eyes of the FAA. Lots of new pilots and owners read these posts and are likely to assume that they would be legal attempting this procedure on standard category aircraft as the consensus is the procedure is worth doing under certain circumstances.

So people are so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft?? :nonod:

Really???:rolleyes2:
 
But when the discussion includes detailed instructions on how to do it, there needs to be clarification that this is not "preventive maintenance" in the eyes of the FAA. Lots of new pilots and owners read these posts and are likely to assume that they would be legal attempting this procedure on standard category aircraft as the consensus is the procedure is worth doing under certain circumstances.
who is possibly going to connect the dots "somebody on the internet said this is how a given repair on an engine can be done, therefore it's legal for me to do it?"
 
Wrong again Kemosabi. :lol: All (I think) experimentals are maintained and inspected per appendix "D" Part 41. So maintainence prevention ( or PM ) is a part of Part 41.

Well, since there is no "Part 41" I'm not sure to what you are referring. :dunno:

If you are referring to Part 43, then look at 43.1 "Applicability"

43.1 Applicability.


(b) This part does not apply to—
(1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft
 
Well, since there is no "Part 41" I'm not sure to what you are referring. :dunno:

If you are referring to Part 43, then look at 43.1 "Applicability"

We have to log it into the log book as appendix "D", Part 43. The A&P signs it off that way anyway. The engine, prop, and airframe have to be inspected "in the full scope and detail" of Appendix "D", Part 43 and have been found to be in a condition suitable for safe operation.

Some verbiage like that anyway.
 
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We have to log it into the log book as appendix "D", Part 43. The A&P signs it off that way anyway.

Why? Part 43 is not applicable to experimental.

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections

Since experimental has a "conditional" inspection how is appendix D applicable? Your A&P may sign it off that way, but it is incorrect.
 
Why? Part 43 is not applicable to experimental.

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections

Since experimental has a "conditional" inspection how is appendix D applicable? Your A&P may sign it off that way, but it is incorrect.

Operating Limitations? Air Worthiness Certificate? :dunno:

I don't know, but every experimental I have helped with the condition inspection has had the same verbiage. That gotta be pushing 25 by now, I usually don't make the log book entry. :dunno:

I just keep writing the same paragraph the A&P or Repairman wrote the year before. Pretty sure it is standard. I like doing the work, I leave the paperwork up to you guys. :rolleyes:
 
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Why? Part 43 is not applicable to experimental.

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections

Since experimental has a "conditional" inspection how is appendix D applicable? Your A&P may sign it off that way, but it is incorrect.

It is not incorrect. You do have to cite what you used to inspect the experimental aircraft against beit Appendix D of Part 43 or some inspection program developed specifically for that aircraft. Whatever is used, the key words at the end are that the aircraft was "found to be in a condition for safe operation."
 
who is possibly going to connect the dots "somebody on the internet said this is how a given repair on an engine can be done, therefore it's legal for me to do it?"

You give too much credit to people, especially pilots.
 
It is not incorrect. You do have to cite what you used to inspect the experimental aircraft against beit Appendix D of Part 43 or some inspection program developed specifically for that aircraft. Whatever is used, the key words at the end are that the aircraft was "found to be in a condition for safe operation."

Thank you. :D
 
So people are so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft?? :nonod:

Really???:rolleyes2:

Yeah, some people are stupid enough to believe that whatever 10000 post pilot/shade tree mechanic says must be true and in compliance with the applicable regulations. I know, it's hard to believe. :eek:
 
It is not incorrect. You do have to cite what you used to inspect the experimental aircraft against beit Appendix D of Part 43 or some inspection program developed specifically for that aircraft. Whatever is used, the key words at the end are that the aircraft was "found to be in a condition for safe operation."

You can certainly "cite" that you used App D Part 43 as a reference, but it is not required for experimental aircraft. 14 CFR 43.1 states applicability and specifically excludes experimental.

How you as an individual A&P wants to sign log books is entirely up to you.
 
Wrong again Kemosabi. :lol:

Im pretty sure most / all experimentals are maintained and "in full scope and detail" inspected per appendix "D" Part 43. So maintainence prevention ( or PM ) is a part of Part 43.

I'm pretty sure we talked this out before. ;)

Ron's right about the fact that Part 43 does not apply to experimental aircraft where it specifies who can do what and sign the return to service. The appendices however can apply to more than just standard category aircraft because they include a generic inspection checklist and the transponder and altimeter checks which can and are used for non-standard category aircraft. "Preventive Maintenance"in Part 43 is a specific FAA term with a specific FAA definition and it does not apply to experimental aircraft or the maintenance thereof.
 
You can certainly "cite" that you used App D Part 43 as a reference, but it is not required for experimental aircraft. 14 CFR 43.1 states applicability and specifically excludes experimental.

How you as an individual A&P wants to sign log books is entirely up to you.


And so it's not incorrect and the FAA advisory circular on inspections even uses it as an acceptable log entry example. (AC 43-209A)
 
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You can certainly "cite" that you used App D Part 43 as a reference, but it is not required for experimental aircraft. 14 CFR 43.1 states applicability and specifically excludes experimental.

How you as an individual A&P wants to sign log books is entirely up to you.


Negative again.

You must certify under penalty of law that you completed the inspection per Appendix "D" Part 43. Any a Repairman or A&P understands the penalty.
 
YGTBSM me Ron. How far will you twist something to try to win an argument nobody knew they were in or cared who won.
Someone cared enough to rag on me about my post (which was completely correct from the git-go) by incorrectly accusing me of being wrong in what I said.
 
Wrong again Kemosabi. :lol:

Im pretty sure most / all experimentals are maintained and "in full scope and detail" inspected per appendix "D" Part 43. So maintainence prevention ( or PM ) is a part of Part 43.

I'm pretty sure we talked this out before. ;)
Total gibberish. 14 CFR 43.1 clearly states that Part 43 is not applicable to Experimental aircraft, and "preventive maintenance" as clearly defined in 14 CFR 1.1 is covered only within the regulatory sections of Part 43 and Appendix A to that Part -- none of which apply to Experimental aircraft. So, unless you're inventing your own definition of "preventive maintenance" without regard to the FAR's, that term does not apply to Experimental aircraft, and the reaming of valve guides by a non-A&P owner/pilot is not "preventive maintenance".
 
So people are so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft?? :nonod:

Really???:rolleyes2:
Well, the OP did ask the question, so you must think the OP is "so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft". Personally, I would not have insulted the OP that way, but instead chose to answer the question as asked with a factual answer.
 
Well, the OP did ask the question, so you must think the OP is "so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft". Personally, I would not have insulted the OP that way, but instead chose to answer the question as asked with a factual answer.

:rolleyes2:
 
Ps... I need to apologize for my comments last night.. The mods sanctioned me and deleted the offensive words.....

It takes a BIG man to apologize. Thanks for your words.

Sometimes I have a snoot or two too many of Old Rammycackle and revert to how I learned it in the 50s (which is not at ALL appropriate today).

Again, thanks for the apology.

Jim
 
... How you as an individual A&P wants to sign log books is entirely up to you.

Absolutely true. If you want to sign it off as "scope and detail of Appendix D" or IAW the manufacturer's manual then that is your statement and you are beholden to it. If on the other hand you want to be as terse as to state "IAW an annual inspection" that's perfectly okay too. The FAA does not view a licensed A&P/IA Mechanic as a school-child, he or she is a delegated authority fully capable of reading and interpreting the FAR's and conducting the inspection in accordance.

If you're a CFI or a Lawyer or a Landscaper you should just do your job and get your nose out of other people's jobs. Everybody's got their niche.
 
Total gibberish. 14 CFR 43.1 clearly states that Part 43 is not applicable to Experimental aircraft, and "preventive maintenance" as clearly defined in 14 CFR 1.1 is covered only within the regulatory sections of Part 43 and Appendix A to that Part -- none of which apply to Experimental aircraft. So, unless you're inventing your own definition of "preventive maintenance" without regard to the FAR's, that term does not apply to Experimental aircraft, and the reaming of valve guides by a non-A&P owner/pilot is not "preventive maintenance".

Total gibberish? :rofl::rofl:

Maybe you should look in the log book of an experimental before you declair it " total gibberish".

I started a thread about PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, working on an engine to avoid repairs or failures in the future, not to get in a ****ing match with you over FAA definitions.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/preventive-maintenance.html

I can use any definition I want to use here or anywhere else. Calling maintence on an engine to avoid repairs or failure down the road IS the definition of PM (preventative maintenance). I don't give a flying **** what the FARS say is the definition. Trust me. :yes:

Geez Ron, you need to get laid! Then again your idea of sex is reading FARS.
 
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Well, the OP did ask the question, so you must think the OP is "so ignorant they can't read the applicable regulations that apply to their aircraft". Personally, I would not have insulted the OP that way, but instead chose to answer the question as asked with a factual answer.

What do you call post #43? Total gibberish!? :dunno:
 
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I can use any definition I want to use here or anywhere else.
You certainly can, but if you want anyone else to understand what you're talking about, you'll stick to the ones everyone else uses, which in this case, is the one in the regulations. Otherwise, nobody can understand what you're saying or what you're asking.
 
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