Really Cold Start in the Middle of Nowhere

Just bring the APU, set if up, go away for a couple of hours, come back and start.

This was the lesson of Kremmling, CO in the winter.
 
steingar said:
I like the idea of a portable generator, they are very compact these days and you should have plenty of fuel available. While you're at it (if you can spare the space) bring along an electric space heater for the cabin.
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And a cover for the engine while it's heating. Huge sleeping bag (or two zipped together) works great, and is backup survival gear if anything untoward happens.
 
Anyone flying into Canada needs to be aware of the requirements of CAR 602.61:

Survival Equipment - Flights over Land 602.61 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft over land unless there is carried on board survival equipment, sufficient for the survival on the ground of each person on board, given the geographical area, the season of the year and anticipated seasonal climatic variations, that provides the means for
(a) starting a fire;
(b) providing shelter;
(c) providing or purifying water; and
(d) visually signalling distress.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of
(a) a balloon, a glider, a hang glider, a gyroplane or an ultra-light aeroplane;
(b) an aircraft that is operated within 25 nautical miles of the aerodrome of departure and that has the capability of radiocommunication with a surface-based radio station for the duration of the flight;
(c) a multi-engined aircraft that is operated south of 66o 30' north latitude
(i) in IFR flight within controlled airspace, or
(ii) along designated air routes;
(d) an aircraft that is operated by an air operator, where the aircraft is equipped with equipment specified in the air operator's company operations manual, but not with the equipment required by subsection (1); or
(e) an aircraft that is operated in a geographical area where and at a time of year when the survival of the persons on board is not jeopardized.




Dan
 
Air Creebec is still flying their Dash 8s in and out of Waskaganish (CYKQ - the destination for this trip). The airport is actually kept in good condition. But FBO staff? Ha! They're surprised that anyone who's not Air Creebec is even landing. They don't have staff there regularly. There is no fuel, you get the idea.

I'm liking the APU idea the best (and double APU at that), that way we're prepared for pretty much everything. I actually already have a space heater, so the idea of getting there early, fire up the generator(s), plug in the Tanis heaters and cabin heater, and walk away for a while to let those heat up and warm up the plane seems like a good one. I fully intended on bringing sleeping bags to cover the engine nacelles also. Figure on bringing the generators and battery to the hotel seems good.

It's going to be an overnight stay, so the thing will be thoroughly cold-soaked and need to warm up a good bit. I'm a ways away from knowing the exact schedule, but figure if it's a midday departure then that would work well for waking up, getting to the airport, and letting the thing get several hours to thoroughly warm up properly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've got a potential trip coming up where I'll be heading to Northern Quebec in early January. I can't imagine that place will be warm at all.

Both the Aztec and the 310 have engine heaters (Aztec has a Reiff system and the 310 has a Tanis system being installed as we speak). Both do the cylinders as well as the oil sump, so the whole engine gets a good pre-heat going. Of course, this requires that you be able to plug the thing in.

When I went to this airport before, it was hard to get ahold of the people who worked there, I never saw their faces, and of course they didn't speak English. It's a 3200 ft gravel strip in the middle of nowhere. I imagine there would have to be an exterior outlet somewhere (but didn't look for one last time I was there, not expecting to be returning in January). While I figure I'll be able to plug the plane in without an issue, this brought up an interesting question: what to do if you can't plug the plane in?

I had a few ideas, along the lines of bringing a portable generator (fuel is easy since you have 100LL readily available in the plane if nothing else), but I'm wondering if anyone else had a simple way that they dealt with this in backwoods areas.
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One problem with a generator is that you'd need one that would run all night while putting out 1000 watts and that would require 2-3 gallons of fuel. The Yamaha 1000W portable generator holds .66 gallons and has a full load runtime of 2.5-3 hrs at full load. I suppose you could rig a timer to start the heaters about 3 hrs before you intended to show up at the airport for departure and let the generator run without load until then. Mine says it will run 12 hrs at 250W and I suspect it would go more than 24 with no load (it has an inverter and the engine slows way down when the load is light). Other potential issues are the generator noise and theft. You'd want to leave the generator outside the airplane and since it makes noise, someone might come along and shut it down or worse yet take it with them.

I'd be tempted to bring a few really long cords and find a way to "borrow" some power. A meter plus an outlet wired to a short cord might let you tie into something outdoors that was powered (gas pump, light, powered gate, etc).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I used to have a snow blower that wouldn't start when it was below freezing...

Anyone remember what aircraft (WW-II vintage) it was that was found / repaired in the middle of northern nowhere and was lost on the first takeoff due to a fire started by a protable generator running in the back?

Edit: B29 in Greenland...
http://www.ww2f.com/military-history/44092-b-29-frozen-time.html

Includes links to the videos. (Assuming you want to watch a B-29 burn to the ground.)
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That was really cool, watched all 6 parts on Youtube. Very interesting stuff, just such a shame that it was that close to flying again.

Also, radial engines are awesome!
 
gismo said:
One problem with a generator is that you'd need one that would run all night while putting out 1000 watts and that would require 2-3 gallons of fuel. The Yamaha 1000W portable generator holds .66 gallons and has a full load runtime of 2.5-3 hrs at full load. I suppose you could rig a timer to start the heaters about 3 hrs before you intended to show up at the airport for departure and let the generator run without load until then. Mine says it will run 12 hrs at 250W and I suspect it would go more than 24 with no load (it has an inverter and the engine slows way down when the load is light). Other potential issues are the generator noise and theft. You'd want to leave the generator outside the airplane and since it makes noise, someone might come along and shut it down or worse yet take it with them.
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While that is a possibility, this place is pretty remote, and the airport is removed from the town. The last time I flew in, half the town's residents drove up just to see who was landing that wasn't Air Creebec (perhaps a bit less than half, but not much). The noise I don't think would be too big of an issue, and the idea of theft seems relatively unlikely. I'd be more concerned with a generator left out overnight not starting when I came back. So, if I brought one down, I"d need to be able to bring it back to the hotel easily enough overnight.

I'd be tempted to bring a few really long cords and find a way to "borrow" some power. A meter plus an outlet wired to a short cord might let you tie into something outdoors that was powered (gas pump, light, powered gate, etc).
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The real question (and one I was going to ask to the people up there) is whether or not the terminal building has some external plugs. When I went last time (in the summer) I didn't expect to be coming back in January, so I didn't look. It wouldn't surprise me if there were external power plugs, in which case the whole question is moot. If the terminal building doesn't have anything (and it does have electricity, so I know that it exists somewhere), then a generator is the only real option. This place is very remote. Just type CYKQ into RunwayFinder to see where it is. It's a little gravel strip which is pretty much the only way for people to get in and out of the town during certain parts of the year. Forest fires and snowfall can make the roads impassable the rest of the time. The nice part about that is that it's well-maintained.

Hopefully the trip happens, I'd like to get to see what it's like up there, despite the extreme cold.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It wouldn't surprise me if there were external power plugs, in which case the whole question is moot. If the terminal building doesn't have anything (and it does have electricity, so I know that it exists somewhere), then a generator is the only real option. This place is very remote. Just type CYKQ into RunwayFinder to see where it is. It's a little gravel strip which is pretty much the only way for people to get in and out of the town during certain parts of the year. Forest fires and snowfall can make the roads impassable the rest of the time. The nice part about that is that it's well-maintained.

Hopefully the trip happens, I'd like to get to see what it's like up there, despite the extreme cold.
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You know...if you bring a nice long cord, I'll bet they have plugs in the parking lot for the car block heaters...
 
The previous owners of my plane provided a Red Dragon when I bought the Cherokee. I'm in a hangar now, so have other means to preheat, but I did use the Red Dragon for the 1st winter I owned the plane. This was in Chicago, so not super cold, but I still used it on plenty of flights between 0 and 32F.

The Red Dragon was a bit cantankerous, too many safety sensors for my liking. Especially if it was windy, it seemed the 'fire went out' safety thermocouple could trigger... shutting off the gas. I do not know if that was specific to my (older) unit, or something that all Red Dragons exhibit.


Bob Noel said:
How good is a propane heater up north when it's not just cold, but really bleepin cold?
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I have a 1500W coleman that is fairly heavy and loud. For tailgating purposes, I've taken to renting the super quiet, small, and lighter Honda EU1000i. The Honda has auto-throttle, so it will run a tailgate all day on like a gallon of gas. That would be valuable if you're going to run a low wattage Tanis system for many hours. The Honda's are expensive (I think about $900). But they can be rented... A week rental from my local rental center was, $75.00. Daily rental was $25.00.

As Jesse points out - $25.00 for a small, cheap, light generator, would be a good backup plan.




jesse said:
If it were me. I would buy and bring two generators. Another generator would sound awful cheap when your first one fails you.

Given their price and size it seems like cheap insurance to avoid freezing your ass off in the middle of nowhere.
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Weather'spretty balmy right now.
Windchill only -21!

http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/CYKQ.html
Wind from the ESE (120 degrees) at 6 MPH (5 KT)
Visibility 15 mile(s)
Sky conditions overcast
Temperature 5 F (-15 C)
Windchill -5 F (-21 C)
Dew Point 0 F (-18 C)

that would give you a good 30? mins til frostbite.

Have a great adventure, Ted!
 

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Why don't you just keep the engines idleing overnight?



Just kidding. :D
 
Looking at the pic of the 'terminal' building I would bet 2 bucks there is an outside outlet for power on the ramp side. With that said, can't you just schedule a quick turn, grab the critters and head south fast ? :dunno::dunno:
 
N801BH said:
Looking at the pic of the 'terminal' building I would bet 2 bucks there is an outside outlet for power on the ramp side. With that said, can't you just schedule a quick turn, grab the critters and head south fast ? :dunno::dunno:
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This one isn't a simple critter grab. We're going up there for one person to have a meeting with the locals (there's an effort up there to get the locals to improve their treatment of pets, which aren't treated very well), someone else to have an animal care class, and I'll be doing pictures and a "dog count," which is where we go around the town and count the dogs that are, yes, living outside (which is a large percentage, even in the winter). So, it'll end up being an overnight deal.

The picture of the terminal building is accurate, and I would agree that an outdoor terminal I can plug into is likely. This place is honest-to-goodness boonies that makes anyplace I've been in the US seem downright metropolitan. The nice part about it is that, once the engines get started, the plane will probably leap off the runway in no time flat. :D

Yep, it's really frickin' cold up there. I'll be dressing accordingly. Or the whole trip might just end up not happening at all, which is another possibility. I'm actually looking forward to going. Yeah, I know, I'm nuts.
 
Yup, that's Hudson Bay. When we were up that far north we would never shut down.
 
Went to Moosonee, (maybe 60mi W of Waskaganish, Ted's destination) years ago during the summer, there was a train from Kapaskasing or Cochrane? called the Polar Bear Express offering 'tourist rides to the GWN'. No roads connect the outside world to Moosonee. Wow, about 5hours of nothingness on the way up there, take a book. It stops for 30mins then heads back after dropping everyone off. Next train was 24hrs later.
We made a quick look about the town, and decided to rush back to catch the train before it left on its return trip!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I tell everyone that is the reason....but the truth lay elsewhere! Flying in January here is a huge bonus however. In fact, being able to fly at all is.
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We were in Texas with our Canadian counterparts last week. They were trying to find some maintenance issue with their airplane that would need a couple days to fix so they could stay a while. They said it was -30C when they left... and it was 23C where we were. I think -30C is pretty unusual for them, though, in that part of the GWN. It's really not that far north.
 
Everskyward said:
We were in Texas with our Canadian counterparts last week. They were trying to find some maintenance issue with their airplane that would need a couple days to fix so they could stay a while. They said it was -30C when they left... and it was 23C where we were. I think -30C is pretty unusual for them, though, in that part of the GWN. It's really not that far north.
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We were colder than the North Pole Tuesday.
http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2010/11/23/16282731.html

DAn
 
Canadians seem to be very cooperative aboot you pluggin' in, eh?

They live there and know what it is like.

Failing that the generator is a great idea. But there is no easy way around it: It may not start or if it does it may damage itself the same way your aircraft engines will, on a cold start in subzero temps, unless you are running an older two-cycle model (not likely.)

Get up, take your generator out of the hotel room where it is warm, go to the airport, start it and connect, go back for three more hours shuteye, then come back to warm nacelles.

Oh, and you are covering the nacelles, aren't you?

If you can't do that buy a red dragon or the other, similar "toolbox" model which has a brand name that escapes me at the moment. I've never had a problem with mine except that sometimes at sub zero temps moisture freezes in the tank valve :incazzato:Again, keep the tank in your room. Don't tell the front desk ;)

I personally don't have an issue with flying with modern propane tanks, considering that an airplane is basically a flying flammable storage installation as it is. It's not as though I'm climbing to FL200 or anything.
 
Oh, I'm definitely going to be putting blankets over the engines. No question there. The only reason the plug-in is really a question is because it's such an infrequently used airport. And it's also a fun exercise to think about.
 
Ted, just remember that IF you use a propane heater, the liquid propane evaporating will chill the remaining propane until it gels-->no vapor pressure. So the toolbox heaters that have a place for the 14 oz cyl. INSIDE the toolbox actually have an advantage-->some of the heat is used to keep the gel fro mgelling.

The Red Dragon has None of these advantages. It will gel for sure. BTDT, Kremmling CO (an ag strip) in winter ski season.
 
brcase said:
As seem to I recall it wasn't really a portable generator, but rather the APU for B-29. And I also seem to recall that they had a habit of catching fire to the point that usually a crewmember was back monitoring it with a fire extinguisher.

I seem to recall this was a bit of an disagreement between the FAA and the recovery crew for FIFI as to whether the APU monitor was required crew. After the Alaska incident it seemed pretty obvious that this was a required crew station.

Brian
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They had a jerry can of gasoline suspended above the APU because the fuel pump in the APU was tango uniform. While taxiing over the rough ground, either the jerry can came loose, fell, and spilled, or enough fuel splashed out to start the fire. Alternately, the fuel line (I can only imagine how they improvised that) may have come loose.

Anyway, dumping 5 gallons of avgas on small engine running inside the fuselage is a bad thing.
 
bbchien said:
Kremmling CO (an ag strip) in winter ski season.
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Here's Kremmling, CO at sunrise, in the winter, when the temperature was about -25C. The runway is to the right and at the end of the runway is what looks like a bit of fog but it's really the remnants of a contrail we made while landing. I'm not sure I would call Kremmling an ag strip unless there's another airport close by. I've seen a Global Express there.

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Well, we made it up there and back without a problem. It wasn't anywhere near -40C up there. More like -15 or -20C, which helped.

The Tanis heaters had been freshly installed and tested for functionality. I also brought with me a pair of sleeping bags and some ropes to put over the cowls, stuff in the cowl holes, and keep them there to keep all that nice heat in. I also brought with me some extra batteries to provide a jump if needed, and was prepared to take the battery out and bring it to the hotel.

Given that the temperature was significantly warmer than I'd expected, I didn't figure that the battery being at -20C would pose an issue. When we arrived yesterday afternoon (before sunset), I ran the extension cords out, plugged in the heaters, and put the sleeping bags over the engines to tuck them in for the night.

My job for the day was to do a "dog count" for the area, walking around and seeing how many dogs there were. We walked by the airport first (this is a town of 2000 people - you can easily walk from one end to the other in 10 minutes with the snow and ice on the ground), and the engines felt nice and toasty warm. With enough layers on, I felt nice and toasty warm, too.

Come late afternoon, the sun was setting and it was time for us to load up and go. We got everything loaded, and then took off the blankets and unplugged the extension cords quickly. The wind picked up a bit, with the plane pointing right into it. I didn't want any chance for that cold air to cool off all that heat soaked into the engines that was so well-earned. Jiggling the props by hand they moved very freely, so I was optimistic. Primed it, hit the starter, and watched the prop get flung around, the left engine firing on the second blade, followed by the right engine doing the same. It's nice when plans come together well. :)

So, how was Waskaganish in January? Surprisingly nice. I would definitely go back in the winter. Fortunately, the weather cooperated well. I was able to climb above the cloud layers just fine for the most part. The cloud layers I did have to go through were so cold that there was no ice in them.

Pictures to follow, it's time for me to get some sleep now. :)
 
Thanks, Ted!
 
bbchien said:
Yup, that's Hudson Bay. When we were up that far north we would never shut down.
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Oh man. Hudson Bay. Was chauffeured around one fine week in June in the mid-1990s by some pilots from some aviation school up there, who we're all building time at a floatplane outfitter in their summer time off.

You haven't lived until the "chief pilot" of an outfitter who's barely able to shave, flies you north of Kenora, ON in a single Otter on floats to a tiny little lake and cabin, on a Monday, to go fishing with your buddies in the Trophy waters.

You arrived in Kenora, ON the day before and loaded six coolers with food, beer, and enough alcohol in cardboard boxes from the store to stock a small town bar, and put everything else, sleeping bags, clothes, and fishing tackle... in black garbage bags.

The town has one grocery store, and one Indian liquor store. They were both happy when we left. The "chief pilot" I learned over the intercom, was 24. He let me do a couple of shallow turns in his beloved Otter, and it flew about how I expected. A flying dump truck. But nice and stable.

This was during my "I don't think I can afford aviation" years when I had stopped chasing the Aviation degree dream but some buddies who'd gone up there before, asked me along on a fishing trip. They had me at the word, "floatplane".

Along about Wednesday, the owner of the whole operation drops in on the lake in his 185 to see if we need anything and to drop off an extra case of beer one of my buddies requested via Satelite phone on Tuesday while he also tried in vain to describe the only fishing lure his precious smallmouth bass were hitting on, in hopes the outfitter could find something similar in town. . (Ha! That was funny. And we made him pay for the delivery. And the beer. He was desperate and down to one lure. We happily caught Walleye after Walleye, and so many pike that we were annoyed with them -- they would hit on the walleye as we reeled them in -- and ignored the darn bass. The real reason for the 185 visit was that the owner and his pilots were restocking the motorboat fuel, and generator fuel, and checking on the well-being of all the customers. Some cabins would have maintenance issues and they ha to fly parts in and out, etc. Our guy who rented the satellite phone was a rarity, but it was the only way his wife would let him go up there. Owner said it was one of the only beer restocking orders he'd ever gotten on the phone! Ha!)

Even better is when they send a 185 and a 182 on floats in to take you out at the end of the week. On Sunday, the 185 and a 182 show up in tandem with appropriate insanity at the dock built for one airplane, with apologies that the Otter went down for maintenance.

For that flight, I got the backseat while a non-current ex-military rotary wing guy who was also an ex-civilian CFI grabbed the right front. He saved the 18 year old kid flying the 182 from a takeoff stall due to a ridiculous aft CG with a carefully placed hand that stopped the yoke from coming any further aft as the kid lifted off. CFI instincts never die. And the kid didn't even see it. Whether he felt it or not, he never let on. Kid gets the nose down (something he probably never had trouble doing before in a 182) and tells us on the way back that the fancy new Garmin Aviator GPS "wasn't allowed last year". "They make you learn all the lakes up here without it, your first year. Then you can have a GPS. I still mostly stay close to the base, or fly chase when someone needs two airplanes further out, like you guys! This is great!"

An hour or so back to a lake north of Kenora, and unpacked both birds. Asked the owner if the pilots would like the food still in the coolers. Pilots thought we were the best customers ever, feeding them! You overpack a bit in case the fish arent biting, and we ate fish every night. One seemed quite happy as he rummaged through our grocery bags, "Awesome! Potatoes!"

Talked with the pilots for a bit, but they all seemed more interested in the cooking smells suddenly coming from their bunkhouse where the "chief pilot" had started lunch with our groceries, and all of 'em were pretty skinny.

Van ride back to Kenora, what I vaguely remember as a Saab 340 ride to MSP, and some unknown jet back to DEN. I was asleep most of that. All I remember was that it was funny to see five Coleman coolers with duct tape around them (sleeping bags and other things inside) sitting in a row on on the ramp with DEN destination stickers on them. And all the fishing tackle boxes on top of those.

Yes. Five guys, a week's worth of stuff, fishing tackle, two skinny pilots, and all of it in a 185 and a 182. I stopped guessing around the time the aircraft hit 200 lbs over-gross in my head. I had no 182 time at the time, and it hadn't sunk yet, right there at the dock, so I prayed a little and got in the back. Wouldn't do it again today, but survived it back then.
 
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Everskyward said:
Here's Kremmling, CO at sunrise, in the winter, when the temperature was about -25C. The runway is to the right and at the end of the runway is what looks like a bit of fog but it's really the remnants of a contrail we made while landing. I'm not sure I would call Kremmling an ag strip unless there's another airport close by. I've seen a Global Express there.
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Good ol' 20V. What were you flying that made the cool contrail?

Colorado Pilot's Association's Mountain Flying and High Altitude Operations course standard route is 20V, GWS (overflying EGE on the way by, basically), ASE, LXV. Very challenging and rewarding.

80F is an instant "no-go" at LXV for this flight per their rules. I luckily or unluckily picked a day when it was 77F for departure. Me, a hefty CFI, and enough fuel to get from LXV down to Salida, make a left, out to the plains, and back to FTG with 45 minutes left in the tanks, we knew the 182 could do it...

But it was the longest ground roll I've ever had for a takeoff and the instructor remarked, "Just so you see it... If you ever have any less performance than that, go left through that break in the treeline instead of straight out, and it gets you started downhill sooner and it's your only "way out" in these conditions."

It was a real eye opener watching the 182 claw for altitude with that light a load.

I wouldn't call 20V an "ag strip" though. I've landed at an ag strip in Texas once when the weather turned to crap on me. It was probably a "high end" ag strip. It was marked public on the charts and was paved. Not a soul in sight on that January afternoon.
 
Ted,

What CHT and oil temps did you see with the Tannis system?

Temps nothing like you had to deal with but if I plug in over night I normally see 105-110 CHTs and oil in the bottom of the yellow guessing 70 degrees.
 
Don't let the engines cool down. Have them ready to meet you, do your business, GTFOOT. Either that or have them drive to an airport that has facilities, or rent a car from there. If it's really remote, bring a generator, or better yet, a pair of gasoline or kerosene fuel burning heaters (propane tanks get useless at really cold temps). Bring moving quilts for the cowls. I would take the Aztec rather than the 310 as there is no really efficient way to pump heat into the 310 cowl.
 
GMascelli said:
Ted,

What CHT and oil temps did you see with the Tannis system?

Temps nothing like you had to deal with but if I plug in over night I normally see 105-110 CHTs and oil in the bottom of the yellow guessing 70 degrees.
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I don't know what the temps were exactly. It was probably somewhere around 75F in that case. The oil temps on both engines were off the bottom when I started, but that oil scale doesn't have any numbers.

Henning said:
Don't let the engines cool down. Have them ready to meet you, do your business, GTFOOT. Either that or have them drive to an airport that has facilities, or rent a car from there. If it's really remote, bring a generator, or better yet, a pair of gasoline or kerosene fuel burning heaters (propane tanks get useless at really cold temps). Bring moving quilts for the cowls. I would take the Aztec rather than the 310 as there is no really efficient way to pump heat into the 310 cowl.
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Clearly you missed my subsequent posts with more information, not to mention the fact that I completed the trip yesterday.

The Aztec is down for maintenance right now anyway, and the 310 was better suited (faster was better in this case, and the load easily fit).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My job for the day was to do a "dog count" for the area, walking around and seeing how many dogs there were.
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This is going to sound utterly facetious, but why did they need a highly trained aerospace engineer and pilot to schlep up there and count dogs? In a town of 2000 souls there is no one who can count that high?
 
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