Really bad landing at my home drome today. I almost dialed 911

Crank up the volume. Watch full screen and pay attention to how little the sabiliator moves




Gotta be rock solid on pitch control. I pull nose up during flare by bending my wrist. Moving your hole arm can get exciting.

Works on both the 177 fixed pitch and the 177B with constant speed.
 
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Power off with full flaps and forward CG isn't easy. Seems like the energy needed to arrest the decent disapears too fast. 2/3 flaps or less is much easier IMHO.


I'm so short of power that a big load and/or high outside air temp pretty much makes me avoid full flaps. Not enough power left and out of my comfort zone. Unless I'm just way too high on final.
 
That's what happens when you don't file a flight plan.
 
Crank up the volume. Watch full screen and pay attention to how little the sabiliator moves




Gotta be rock solid on pitch control. I pull nose up during flare by bending my wrist. Moving your hole arm can get exciting.

Works on both the 177 fixed pitch and the 177B with constant speed.

That looked like fine technique. Just the way I would want to see it and hear it. The stabilator doesn't move much - but the critical thing is, it moves in the right direction. pretty sure the guy I watched pushed forward, not back.
 
I bounced the champ a few times when I started. The instructor, an old pro, would add a little throttle, play with the stick and land it. He never went around. Later, having watched carefully what he had done, I saved four or five bounced landings in the Stearman , cross wind, etc. By doing the same thing, never went around. I think , if you know the airplane well , calming a bad landing down is not big deal. Again, the tail wheel instruction and subsequent many hours in one proved invaluable to me later on. I landed the mooney almost exactly the way I land the champ. Same when I was given the opportunity to land a shrike several times.

You can break the PIO and land but it requires adding power, pulling the nose up and landing. Stalling and/or running out of runway are the risks.
 
Can't they be landed full stall,
Yes of course they can... :confused:
and in your case get a booster seat?
A cushion would do the trick but would require getting rid of my Rosen visors to make it work. If I crane my neck to see over the glareshield my headset tends to hit the visor's mounting bracket, unless it's moved full left out of the way.
I would think the Cardinal can be flared full stall like any other trike. Never flown one, but a flying stabilizer is pretty effective in the Cher 140.
Not sure what I wrote that made you think I was saying otherwise...
 
That looked like fine technique. Just the way I would want to see it and hear it. The stabilator doesn't move much - but the critical thing is, it moves in the right direction. pretty sure the guy I watched pushed forward, not back.
Yes, trying to force the plane onto the runway. Shaka, when the walls fell... :yikes:
 
Not sure what I wrote that made you think I was saying otherwise...

The part where you said you bounce it on fairly often, or words to that effect. Sounds like poor technique and excuses to me, after seeing Brians vid.

I run out of ruddervator travel when I'm forward CG and full flaps as well, but I can still put it on the mains with decent handling of the elevator. Comanche is well known for coming in flat on the deck as well. Challenging plane to get landing consistent. I guess the Card is similar then.
 
Bad judgement of height above runway. Flaring too late or too early. Too late results in a flat landing that can also bounce. That's the kind that leads to PIO if not remedied immediately. Too early and I stall too high, requiring addition of power to avoid hitting the mains hard.
 
The part where you said you bounce it on fairly often, or words to that effect. Sounds like poor technique and excuses to me, after seeing Brians vid.
BTW, not to criticize Brian's technique, but I can't really get anything out of that video with the camera pointed rearward. Maybe I'm missing something.

I've done many, many landings with the mains kissing the runway followed several seconds by the nose coming down gently. Requires good airspeed control, and actually full flaps helps, IME. I don't understand why he uses partial flaps only - I assume "one-third flaps" means 10 degrees?
 
Bad judgement of height above runway. Flaring too late or too early. Too late results in a flat landing that can also bounce. That's the kind that leads to PIO if not remedied immediately. Too early and I stall too high, requiring addition of power to avoid hitting the mains hard.

Mains are tough, nose is not. The mains will take one hell of a drop.

The big thing I drill into students heads is they will not break the airplane in a bad landing UNLESS they let that yoke come forward. If the reason the airplane touches down is because they let the yoke come forward well then they very well may break an airplane.

I drill this BIG time into their heads.
 
Oh I agree, of the two kinds of "bad landing", the flat, bounced, PIO-prone is by far the more likely to lead to an un-reusable airplane. The mains are strongER than the nosewheel, but I still wouldn't want to drop from 5 feet in the air, even landing just on the mains. I believe in being kind to my airplane. :)
 
A number of years ago a pilot at my airfield was landing a new to him Cardinal and got into a PIO. Went off the runway and ran into a road grader parked in the grass on the other side of the parallel taxiway. Survived with severe burns. Must be something with the cardinal's all flying stabilator that makes PIOs easy to get into for newbys. I've seem to have seen a number of incidents peculialr to Cardinals involving loss of control on landing.
I land Cardinals nearly every week and they land great - as long as you know how to land them. I can get a greaser nearly every time even with crosswinds - but you have to be smooth and not be afraid to be a bit nose high on the landing. One of the pilots that flies with me when we are doing photo work finally broke his PIOs recently and stopped the multiple little movements that were destroying his landings. He's landing it about as well as I do now and it's a lot more fun.
 
A number of years ago a pilot at my airfield was landing a new to him Cardinal and got into a PIO. Went off the runway and ran into a road grader parked in the grass on the other side of the parallel taxiway. Survived with severe burns. Must be something with the cardinal's all flying stabilator that makes PIOs easy to get into for newbys. I've seem to have seen a number of incidents peculialr to Cardinals involving loss of control on landing.

It usually happens to pilots that have a lot of 172 time and go "cool, it's a 172 without those damn struts" and fly it like a 172. There were a lot of accidents when they first came out. They redesigned the stabilator the next year and replace the stabilator at no charge to all the existing ones. The biggest problem was hauling the yoke back on flare and striking the tail. But the driving the nose into the pavement problem was still there to some extent. It rears it's ugly head exactly like what happened in this thread. Wind gust, lifts airplane, push yoke down a little and get the plane back down just like in a 172. It gets the plane down alright, nose first.
 
As a low time pilot (immediately post-PPL) my instructor checked me out in a Cardinal. I had been flying a 150 the whole time but we had done a couple of xc's in the 177. I took it around the pattern and the sight picture was so different combined with poor airspeed control that it caused me to bounce once. Surprised, I bounced again then immediately recognized PIO and poured on the coals.

I've never forgotten that and have promised myself one day I will tackle that particular demon. There's a groove you get with your own airplane and I have that with my 172. I love the 177 so I'd like to make up for my ham-fistedness one day.

You went around rather than fight it so your head is already in the right place. Check this out. They refered to knots sometimes and mph sometimes so make the adjustment as you read.

[FONT=&quot]Getting those greasers in the 177's are a snap. First, go out of the pattern and climb to a good altitude, say 3,000 or better above ground.

Set the plane up for a power off glide, with 20 degrees of flaps, and a comfortable approach speed. We were using 65 knots in Bruce's plane. In this configuration, note the amount of pitch down attitude the plane must be in to hold 65 knots and burn it into memory. Also, note how much nose up trim is required to trim for that attitude. Then go back to the pattern.

Downwind leg, 17 to 20" of manifold pressure. Opposite landing spot, carb heat, 15" mp, flaps 10 degrees and establish 80 mph glide.

Continue on a normal approach, knowing that (for now) you are limited only to 20d of flaps. On final, flaps 20d and establish the predetermined attitude for 65. If you must carry power to the runway, KEEP THE NOSE IN THAT ATTITUDE AND TAKE THE EXTRA SPEED, because when you reach the runway and reduce throttle to land, the speed will return to the target speed. You want to practice so that every approach allows you to arrive over the threshold at the same 65 attitude, flaps 20d, power completely at idle and trim full nose up.

Then make an initial flare to ONLY LEVEL THE PLANE OVER THE RUNWAY. As it settles, gently raise the nose to an attitude that obviously places the nosewheel above the mains and then freeze that attitude. You will then add tiny back pressure moves to (1) make slight checks to stop small rates of descent close to the ground and "hold the plane off of the runway and (2) to maintain that initial nose up attitude you established after the initial flare.

The trick is you are adding constant back-pressure not to keep the nose coming up higher and higher like the other box built Cessnas, but to only maintain the initial nose up attitude (with only slight rises if necessary) and let the 177 scoot along the runway until you have worked the mains down for that squeaker.

Once you get this going well for you, then go to 30d, 70 mph and do the same thing. Things just happen faster because the speed is lower and it bleeds off quicker with 30d.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Remember:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Attitude is key...don't adjust attitude onfinal with power changes..take the speed variations because when you reduce to idle the plane will return to the proper speed.

Always plan your approach so as to be crossing the threshold at the same speed, attitude, and power at idle.

When the field is made, have as much nose up trim as you can stand..full is best.

If you balloon during the flare DONT EVER,EVER,EVER PUSH THE CONTROL FORWARD. Just freeze it's position and let the plane settle closer to the runway and then resume slight back pressure. If you balloon real high and your rate of descent seems too high after the baloon stops, just give a small boost of throttle to cushion the touchdown.

Be patient, don't rush the touchdown. As you get better at this, you can lower the speeds to reduce the float time. But find that sweet spot nose up attitude, hold it there and make slight stabilator adjustments to keep your self skimming above the ground until the wheels kiss it on.

Soft field is the same except that you use a litle bit of power after the initial flare as you settle to add extra cushion and helps keep the nose off after you touch.

The above is a real good standardized start. As you get comfortable and consistent with this, you can then modify as necessary to suit your needs. But the Cardinal basics don't ever change. [/FONT]
 
BTW, not to criticize Brian's technique, but I can't really get anything out of that video with the camera pointed rearward. Maybe I'm missing something.

I've done many, many landings with the mains kissing the runway followed several seconds by the nose coming down gently. Requires good airspeed control, and actually full flaps helps, IME. I don't understand why he uses partial flaps only - I assume "one-third flaps" means 10 degrees?

There's a big difference between the thin winged '68 and the fat wings of the later airplanes with full flaps. I feel that at full flaps (30 degrees) in the 68 is closer to critical angle of attack and on a normal properly trimmed poweroff glide its hard to flare without running out of energy. It mushes and gets very draggy as you get closer & closer to critical AOA. Pulling nose up hard with the big stabiliator is like a speed brake making the (power off full-flaps) energy issue more complicated. Using power helps but not something I normally do. Dad likes to use a blimp of power.



Also, I'm pretty sure the first 800 or so serial numbers have a longer nose strut tube than the later ones, meaning the nose gear sticks out further unloaded making three points or nose firsts more likely.
 
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More drag. Just pull hard. Over 13 feet wide with about a 3.5 foot cord. Full nose up



Full nose down




Here is one off the airplane, the tips add another 7ish inches total.

 
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There's a big difference between the thin winged '68 and the fat wings of the later airplanes with full flaps. I feel that at full flaps (30 degrees) in the 68 is closer to critical angle of attack and on a normal properly trimmed poweroff glide its hard to flare without running out of energy. It mushes and gets very draggy as you get closer & closer to critical AOA. Pulling nose up hard with the big stabiliator is like a speed brake making the (power off full-flaps) energy issue more complicated. Using power helps but not something I normally do. Dad likes to use a blimp of power.
Okay -- that's very possible. I don't think I've ever seen a '68, much less flown one. Mine is a '76 RG, different bird except they both are strutless and have that powerful stabilator.

I'm also in the "touch of power" camp, though if need be I can dead stick it.
 
Okay -- that's very possible. I don't think I've ever seen a '68, much less flown one. Mine is a '76 RG, different bird except they both are strutless and have that powerful stabilator.

I'm also in the "touch of power" camp, though if need be I can dead stick it.

I've got about 40 hours and roughly a 100 landings in a 1978 177B. Other than the constant speed and full flaps high AOA traits that set them apart, they handle pretty much the same.

Here is the 78 wing



A 1968 wing





Can't really see it in the pictures but serials 1 thru 1370 have a stall strip about inline with the fuel tank filler.

The 177A started with serial number 1165. (O360, different wings and fixed pitch propeller) do not.
 
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Some think you can bounce by just being high on the flare. The bounce comes from landing on the nose wheel first.

Being high just results in a thud or harder set down, but the mains won't bounce unless you are fast and start to fly again.

If you start to fly again then level out and set down again with nose up flare. If you bounce from the nose wheel first then you have a go-around.
 
There's a big difference between the thin winged '68 and the fat wings of the later airplanes with full flaps. I feel that at full flaps (30 degrees) in the 68 is closer to critical angle of attack and on a normal properly trimmed poweroff glide its hard to flare without running out of energy. It mushes and gets very draggy as you get closer & closer to critical AOA. Pulling nose up hard with the big stabiliator is like a speed brake making the (power off full-flaps) energy issue more complicated. Using power helps but not something I normally do. Dad likes to use a blimp of power.



Also, I'm pretty sure the first 800 or so serial numbers have a longer nose strut tube than the later ones, meaning the nose gear sticks out further unloaded making three points or nose firsts more likely.

If it's speed your after the early thin wings are the way to go. You see a few of them out there with Vortex generators to tame the tweaky stall characteristics.
 
More drag. Just pull hard. Over 13 feet wide with about a 3.5 foot cord. Full nose up



Full nose down




Here is one off the airplane, the tips add another 7ish inches total.


That "slot" on the inboard leading edge of the stabilator is what was added to the original to "tame" the stabilator. Whats with the big speaker? Are you going to turn the plane into a flying Boom Box. LOL
 
Two notes about the slots:

#1 The trim is an anti servo type.
#2 The slots are about the width of the trim tab.

It must have something to airflow over the trim tab and resulting pitch forces..

I don't think its to prevent tailpane stall or I would think the slots would run most of the length of the leading edge.
 
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It's easy to bend the firewall in a Cardinal, even with no external signs of damage. :(

This. A prop stoppage and engine damage is one thing, but with any PIO, you're almost certainly going to have firewall damage. The firewall becomes weaker and could collapse on some future landing.

Take a look at the nose gear and see if it's at a different angle, probably sitting up a little straighter. This is even easier if there's another airplane of the same type to compare it with....sure sign of firewall damage.
 
Originally Posted by docmirror
Can't they be landed full stall,


Yes of course they can... :confused:

Most light airplanes can't be landed full stall. The wing needs around 17° AOA to get that, and in the flare, essentially level flight, most can't reach much past 12° without banging the tail. Even the average taildragger sits with the wing's chord around 12°.

The stall warning sounds at 5 to ten knots above stall.

The Quest Kodiak MIGHT be able to land full stall:

imageJ3V.JPG
 
I recall the Zenith were designed to land at or near full stall? They have that dramatic upswept hind end and I guess a lot of elevator travel.
 
Basically all i ever do as an instructor to stop someone from totaling an airplane is grab the yoke and hold it back to the stops.

With ground effect you'd be shocked how well this works even if it seems like you have absolutely no energy.

I admire you guys and could never be a CFI. With my luck, right as I performed your maneuver, the student would have applied full power for the go around with the nose straight in the air:eek:
 
Some think you can bounce by just being high on the flare. The bounce comes from landing on the nose wheel first.

Being high just results in a thud or harder set down, but the mains won't bounce unless you are fast and start to fly again.

If you start to fly again then level out and set down again with nose up flare. If you bounce from the nose wheel first then you have a go-around.

Actually, there's one more than catches pilots - an initial bounce which pops you back up in the air near stall speed. At the apogee the nose starts to drop, but pulling on the yoke at that point might not save it. Many PIOs start with an innocent and perhaps even nose up bounce. Hit the power and hope that brings the nose up enough to avoid damage, then fly away.

http://150cessna.tripod.com/c150fwinsp.html
 
I was over putting some wax on the bird, and it was breezy and a bit unstable. Saw a Cardinal coming in, looked high on appr but makeable. Sadly, he was also fast due to the gusty wind, almost down the runway. Well, he passed the threshold by a good bit, and was past half way down before he pushed the nose down and 'bam!' bounced it on the nose gear, then the mains hit, then it all went back up again and came down on the nose again, then it ballooned and started to settle back as he was 3/4 down the runway. Lucky at that point he gave up, pushed the power back in and slogged back in the air for another try.

Second attempt was much better. In fact, it was pretty flat, pulled the power out over the numbers, decent flare, touched the mains and it all stuck.

I was sure the first one was going in the weeds, and then the back yard off the end of the runway today. I really wish pilots would take some TW training, or just go back to basics of energy mgmt. It was sad to watch that. And I find out later this person is a inst student! Gulp...

Sounds like a typical Cirrus pilot arrival. :stirpot:
 
The guy in the Card left today. His take off was uneventful. I got a quick look at the prop tips and no indication of any scraping. I didn't want to look to close at the gear or firewall, but it all seemed intact. Live to crash - er, land another day.
 
The part where you said you bounce it on fairly often, or words to that effect. Sounds like poor technique and excuses to me, after seeing Brians vid.



I run out of ruddervator travel when I'm forward CG and full flaps as well, but I can still put it on the mains with decent handling of the elevator. Comanche is well known for coming in flat on the deck as well. Challenging plane to get landing consistent. I guess the Card is similar then.


Part of the issue with the Comanche is that it stops flying all at once.

That and when sitting level on its gear, it's already 4 degrees nose up. So you have to raise the nose that much further on landing.


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Part of the issue with the Comanche is that it stops flying all at once.

That and when sitting level on its gear, it's already 4 degrees nose up. So you have to raise the nose that much further on landing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PA24s have always been quite docile in my experience.
 
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