Real value of an airplane for sale.

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TommyG

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So me and a buddy have a 1969 182N in our sights. We did a vref to see what the value was. But how can we find out the real value would be to start making an offer?
 
Vref lol

Gotta dig around, get on all the sales sites, talk to folks on forums, I know you know this, hit the guy up for 15-20% under what it's fair value is, see where you meet.
 
Do the comps,check all the brokerage sites. Also ask on the aviation boards,not always good info,but it may help.
 
Pay for a NAAA Certified Appraisal

You can do a fairly close estimate using the NAAA link on Trade A Plane. Database is not as complete and the big thing is judging the paint and interior. NAAA is VERY tight on those parameters.
 
TommyG said:
So me and a buddy have a 1969 182N in our sights. We did a vref to see what the value was. But how can we find out the real value would be to start making an offer?
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Post the pictures, hours, history, & total time on this board. It will be totally dissected, overanalyzed, & picked apart.

In the end it will be your decision.

Since buying my 182 in July, I've had a lot of tires kickers & interest in the new bird on the field. So often, I end up getting asked what I paid. I'm not shy about stating what I paid. I get people telling me it was a steal to people acting surprised I paid so much. I'm happy with my decision & ultimately that's all that matters.
 
See what comparable planes are advertised at, and figure they're actually selling for less. The most important number is what you're willing to pay for it, not what the seller will take. If he doesn't take your offer, keep looking. It's not like there's a terrible 182 shortage, right?
 
TommyG said:
So me and a buddy have a 1969 182N in our sights. We did a vref to see what the value was. But how can we find out the real value would be to start making an offer?
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How much the seller is willing to take is the value. Start the bidding low.
 
paflyer said:
How much the seller is willing to take is the value. Start the bidding low.
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I recently helped a friend sell a plane. Those who emailed or called with an offer of 75% the asking price (there were 4) were told to go f*** themselves. The plane was priced fairly and sold at 95.5% the asking price. If you start too low all you'll accomplish is pizzing off the owner who will immediately think that you're nothing more than a lowballing PoS.

Find out what the plane is worth and if it's priced fairly then make a fair offer.
 
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I am in the process of searching (and ultimately) buying my first plane. I have negotiated on several and have come very close on buying one plane. Most sellers I have dealt with have 10% wiggle room right from the start. 20% discount if you are able to make a quick purchase and eat some of the pre buy issues. As an observation, the most discount is available on the planes that have the appearance of being overpriced. The planes that are fairly priced don't last long. One guy had his 172 priced to sell so when I called it was sold, plane lasted only one day on the market. The plane I am currently kicking the tires on has been on the market three months. Seller remindes me often on "what he has invested in the plane" which of course has nothing to do with the actual airplane value. Best advice that has been offered to me is don't go looking for a cheap airplane but rather buy a plane that will be the cheapest to maintain. Stay away from problems.
 
timwinters said:
I

If you start too low all you'll accomplaish is pizzing off the owner who will immediately think that you're nothing more than a lowballing PoS.

Find out what the plane is worth and if it's priced fairly then make a fair offer.
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Who cares if you "pizz" off the seller? You aren't trying to make a new friend, you are trying to buy a plane at a price you can afford and you feel is the value.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Who cares if you "pizz" off the seller?
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Well, YOU should care if you're really interested in buying the plane and don't want the seller to slam the door in your face. Two of the lowballers returned with more legitimate offers and were still told to pound sand.

If a plane is really overpriced, sure, make an offer that reflects the actual value. But that wasn't the case here.

IOW...do your research, know what the plane is worth and go in expecting to pay a fair price. Treat others the way you would want to be treated...I know...such an unamerican concept.
 
timwinters said:
I recently helped a friend sell a plane. Those who emailed or called with an offer of 75% the asking price (there were 4) were told to go f*** themselves. The plane was priced fairly and sold at 95.5% the asking price. If you start too low all you'll accomplaish is pizzing off the owner who will immediately think that you're nothing more than a lowballing PoS.

Find out what the plane is worth and if it's priced fairly then make a fair offer.
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You guys are in sales as a profession?
 
I'm happy with what I paid for my plane. I looked at a bunch of Cardinals before I bought this one. I broke my valuation into three parts: the airframe, the engine, and the avionics. The easiest pat was the engine as the cost to rebuild is fairly well known and while not necessary, rebuilding at 2000 hours is a good benchmark. Then just compute the percent remaining. Of course having the logs to see how it was flown and maintained is also important. Second, is the airframe which is strictly a comparison but "hangared" is a really good selling point for the paint. Finally, is the avionics which can be anything from a couple of KX-170's and some Narco boxes to a new Garmin stack. This is where you have to figure the value to you of what is there.

If you start with a mid-range plane is $45k and each part is $15k then you can plus or minus to a fairly accurate number. Again, this is based on seeing several airplanes of the same type.

Good luck and in the end don't get caught up in having THIS plane but learn from the experience and in the end you will be happy.
 
timwinters said:
I recently helped a friend sell a plane. Those who emailed or called with an offer of 75% the asking price (there were 4) were told to go f*** themselves. The plane was priced fairly and sold at 95.5% the asking price. If you start too low all you'll accomplish is pizzing off the owner who will immediately think that you're nothing more than a lowballing PoS.

Find out what the plane is worth and if it's priced fairly then make a fair offer.
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If I make an offer on a plane, or a house, or a car, I offer what I am willing to pay for it. Not more, not less. Sometimes that can be much less than the seller is asking. If it is, I make it clear that my offer is what I am willing to pay for it, they're welcome to take it or leave it but don't take it personally if they think it's too low. I'm not coming back with a higher offer. They are welcome to make a counter if they want to, but if I've made an offer there is very little "wiggle room". For me it's not a game or a competition, it's a business transaction. I bought the house and the airplane that way, and paid substantially less than the advertised price each time. You have no way of knowing what the seller will actually take for what he or she is selling, only what it's advertised for. Sometimes sellers price according to what they think the market will bear, which is sometimes well above what they'd take.
 
I've found Vref to be a useful tool, it is another source of objective info along with the asking prices on T.A.P. and Barnstormers, and whatever info you can get from recent buyers and sellers. The Vref trend data is useful also, to get a sense of which way the market is moving. You can also use it to convince the seller you are not just a lowballing tirekicker :). The service isn't cheap, but an airplane is a big purchase, a little extra information can easily pay for itself and more.
 
Look at what other comparable planes are selling for. Trouble is, asking price is one thing, selling price is another. 10-20% below the average asking price is probably a reasonable offer. The longer its been on the market the more likely the seller is to deal. What really matters is the plane's condition. Good ones sell for more and are worth it. Don't get caught buying a bargain only to find out you have to rebuild 20k or more the first year.
 
timwinters said:
Well, YOU should care if you're really interested in buying the plane and don't want the seller to slam the door in your face. Two of the lowballers returned with more legitimate offers and were still told to pound sand.

If a plane is really overpriced, sure, make an offer that reflects the actual value. But that wasn't the case here.

IOW...do your research, know what the plane is worth and go in expecting to pay a fair price. Treat others the way you would want to be treated...I know...such an unamerican concept.
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It is just a business transaction, nothing personal. If the Seller told me to "pound sand", I would not be interested in dealing with the seller.

Keep in mind, the Seller wants my money, just as the Buyer wants the airplane. They are both equal in the transaction. Some seller getting all "pizzed" and eliminating buyers just hurts his value to the airplane.

The value of the buyer's money remains constant.

And, with 182's, luckily, the Buyer can just move on to the next one.
 
DaleB said:
If I make an offer on a plane, or a house, or a car, I offer what I am willing to pay for it. Not more, not less. Sometimes that can be much less than the seller is asking. If it is, I make it clear that my offer is what I am willing to pay for it, they're welcome to take it or leave it but don't take it personally if they think it's too low.
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Yep.

Nothing personal. You make an offer what you are willing to pay. Accepted or declined, you move on....
 
I paid 250,000 for my Cherokee 140 - was that a bad deal?
 
I told a potential buyer I insisted on Wire Transfer before he gets possession of the airplane. His reply was "I can't, my bank is in Nebraska" (he was in Florida). I didn't ask him where his bank was. One buyer eliminated.

I had a mechanic that ran an FBO for a while and sold this doctor's Cessna 337. So he made a deal with a buyer 1000 miles away. Buyer said to have the plane delivered and he'd pay. Guy had one of his CFIs fly the plane up there. Buyer gave the CFI an envelope with a cashiers check in it for the plane. CFI flew back commercial. Turned out the cashiers check was the carbon copy. FBO guy calls the buyer and says we have to talk about how to get this straightened out. Buyers says, "no, what we are going to talk about is how much I am going to pay for this plane".

Be careful, there are some sharks out there....
 
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The most common problem is non-released liens (old loan paid off but no lien release in FAA records)
 
JoseCuervo said:
It is just a business transaction, nothing personal. If the Seller told me to "pound sand", I would not be interested in dealing with the seller.

.
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:thumbsup: yup, and then I'd laughed in their face and say bye bye
 
coloradobluesky said:
I told a potential buyer I insisted on Wire Transfer before he gets possession of the airplane. His reply was "I can't, my bank is in Nebraska" (he was in Florida). I didn't ask him where his bank was. One buyer eliminated.

I had a mechanic that ran an FBO for a while and sold this doctor's Cessna 337. So he made a deal with a buyer 1000 miles away. Buyer said to have the plane delivered and he'd pay. Guy had one of his CFIs fly the plane up there. Buyer gave the CFI an envelope with a cashiers check in it for the plane. CFI flew back commercial. Turned out the cashiers check was the carbon copy. FBO guy calls the buyer and says we have to talk about how to get this straightened out. Buyers says, "no, what we are going to talk about is how much I am going to by this plane for".

Be careful, there are some sharks out there....
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I wouldn't wire transfer funds to the Seller. I would deposit / wire them to an Escrow company, but not to the Seller directly.

Then, when the clear title is delivered, inspections completed, etc, you instruct the Escrow company to release the funds.

That way the Seller doesn't have to worry about the $$$ being good.

In the second scenario, the Seller could easily sue the Buyer with the fake check, and, there might actually be something criminal. I wouldn't waste time re-negotiating. It would just have became a legal issue.
 
coloradobluesky said:
I told a potential buyer I insisted on Wire Transfer before he gets possession of the airplane. His reply was "I can't, my bank is in Nebraska" (he was in Florida). I didn't ask him where his bank was. One buyer eliminated.

I had a mechanic that ran an FBO for a while and sold this doctor's Cessna 337. So he made a deal with a buyer 1000 miles away. Buyer said to have the plane delivered and he'd pay. Guy had one of his CFIs fly the plane up there. Buyer gave the CFI an envelope with a cashiers check in it for the plane. CFI flew back commercial. Turned out the cashiers check was the carbon copy. FBO guy calls the buyer and says we have to talk about how to get this straightened out. Buyers says, "no, what we are going to talk about is how much I am going to pay for this plane".

Be careful, there are some sharks out there....
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That's when you next send Luca Brasi.
 
There is nothing wrong with offering what to you would be a fair price.

There is something ethically challenged in making a low ball offer to see how much you can beat the seller out of.

You either approach this as an opportunity to make a mutually beneficial deal, or to win some sort of adversarial "game". It's a motivation thing.

John
 
timwinters said:
Oh, hell no, I've never claimed to be a professional liar.
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Everyone has been in the selling business whether you want to believe it or not. Selling yourself for a job, selling your product in your business, selling your wife on the idea of a new airplane...etc
 
The most fun I ever had selling a plane was my last 182. I was getting stupid offers for it, like insulting crazy low. So I just started accepting them. They would fly in and call me I'd say what was your offer again? They would say 35k or whatever and I'd say sorry no way. They would flip out. Then I'd explain they made a stupid offer without looking, trying to rip me off. Have a nice flight back FU. I know that I have saved a least 5 guys stupid offers because of this. Sold the 182 for 119k had offers under 40k.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Everyone has been in the selling business whether you want to believe it or not. Selling yourself for a job, selling your product in your business, selling your wife on the idea of a new airplane...etc
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No, your examples are of people who are simply convincing someone of something they believe in. That's easy, and honest.

A good salesman, on the other hand, must be able to convince somebody to buy a product that they don't believe in.
 
timwinters said:
No, your examples are of people who are simply convincing someone of something they believe in. That's easy, and honest.

A good salesman, on the other hand, must be able to convince somebody to buy a product that they don't believe in.
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A number of years ago the Marketing Director for a company I worked for asked me "Do you know the difference between sales and marketing?"
"No" I said.
He said "The marketing department KNOWS when they are lying to you."

John
 
tlrussell said:
The most fun I ever had selling a plane was my last 182. I was getting stupid offers for it, like insulting crazy low. So I just started accepting them. They would fly in and call me I'd say what was your offer again? They would say 35k or whatever and I'd say sorry no way. They would flip out. Then I'd explain they made a stupid offer without looking, trying to rip me off. Have a nice flight back FU. I know that I have saved a least 5 guys stupid offers because of this. Sold the 182 for 119k had offers under 40k.
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Let me understand.

Buyers made offers of $xxx and you accepted the offers?

Buyers then travelled to complete the previously agreed contract?

You failed to live up to the contract multiple times?

You are lucky somebody did not drag you into court for damages or to force completion of the contract. You should publicly disclose your information here to save other buyers from entering into contracts with you.
 
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