Raptor Aircraft, Vaporware?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by sferguson524, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. German guy

    German guy Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    999
    Location:
    Novi, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oliver
    I’m not interested in the TBO or problems which develop slowly and which can be caught in time.

    My question was after how many hours, in average, you think a catastrophic failure can be expected with a Lycoming or Continental aircraft engine?

    I believe I heard numbers of around 20,000 hours. This would be about 10 times the hours of what I experienced with series production Diesel vehicles and what seemed pretty much the standard, compared to colleagues and friends.
    All the catastrophic failures were caused by some kind of electronic problems, the only mechanical problems I remember were failed turbochargers and a failed high pressure pump, these were however rather slowly developing issues.

    I am talking about
    a.) humming along, fat, dumb and happy and the engine going dead from one second to the next
    and
    b.) on top of that, humming along, fat, dumb and happy and the engine going to fail-safe mode, reducing the available power to maybe 10 - 15%

    If a.) would happen every 2000 hours and b.) every 800 or so hours in an airplane, I would guess that most pilots would quit flying.

    ECUs, sensors, electric injectors all tend to crap out without any warning but are essential for the operation of a modern Diesel.

    Just think about the enormous investments which already went into the development of the aircraft diesel engines. Well funded companies went bankrupt over this, even though they also used proven car engines as a basis. To turn a car Diesel engine into a reliable aircraft engine, which can also be operated with Jet fuel, is not even remotely as simple as it looks.

    Personally, I might fly behind a converted car gasoline engine, if it is well executed, because of its lower complexity and because components which are prone to failure and critical for the operation of the engine can more easily be made redundant.
    A converted Diesel – no, thank you, unless serious efforts went into the improvement of its reliability and the redundancy of critical components.
     
    Vern B likes this.
  2. Tmpendergrass

    Tmpendergrass Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    224
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tmpendergrass
    IF this design gets off the ground, it won't be with either of the engines mentioned. Maybe the SMA engine from the 182 would be a good option


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,116
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992

    That's probably not powerful enough. The EPS diesels look like they might be a better fit.
     
  4. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    2,480
    Location:
    Tupelo, MS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ktup-flyer
    They STILL don't have the model finished :lol:
     
  5. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,116
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    Apparently they leased an office/development facility though....

    If all the deposits are "in escrow" I have to wonder - how is this funded...?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. gerbs

    gerbs Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    gerbs
    Looks like they've got a model now that they've been working with:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clab804ncDw

    Also they hired a feller named Jeff Kerlo who essentially created the Velocity line of kits (which is the inspiration for the raptor).. Seems to get a little more promising every day?
     
  7. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    The XL yes. The Velocity line was created by Dan Maher over 30 years ago.
     
  8. Unit74

    Unit74 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    4,654
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Unit74
    Wonder if that "drone' pilot is registered and has a commercial pilots license?:lol:
     
  9. TFulwider

    TFulwider Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2015
    Messages:
    135
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Terry
    I don't understand what they are expecting to achieve with the model. We already know the canards will fly (thanks Burt!), and this model just looks like a bloated LongEZ.

    I'll believe it as soon as they start testing a full size prototype.
     
  10. gerbs

    gerbs Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    gerbs
    That's a valid point. From their videos, they said they are spending 1 business day out of the week (so 20% of their time) on the model.. Maybe it'll be for marketing purposes later on or something along those lines? For trade show purposes?
     
  11. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,649
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ~John
    Prototype the design and work out the bugs in the aerodynamics. As was said in the video, make some improvements like on the winglets to help with stability, move the CG more forward to help with takeoff. Even the Wright brothers made models. It's not new.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  12. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,116
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    If they can pull it off at the numbers listed, they'll quickly take over a huge portion of the GA market.

    It's a big "if" though.
     
  13. JeffDG

    JeffDG Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    17,510
    Location:
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JeffDG
    If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle too.
     
  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
  16. Jeffythequick

    Jeffythequick Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Messages:
    353
    Location:
    Charleston, SC and Everett, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeffythequick
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Wish they would have made the back windows bigger. Passengers aren't going to like that. Pressurized they might not have had a choice.
     
  18. Z06tink72

    Z06tink72 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    My z06 is faster than your C172
    Is anybody going to Peter's presentation at OSH this week, it would be nice to post up anything new you learn. Might not be anything new for those that watch the videos he puts out twice a week already.
     
  19. Jeffythequick

    Jeffythequick Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Messages:
    353
    Location:
    Charleston, SC and Everett, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeffythequick
    Since it's a kit plane, I'm tempted to put cameras in the wingtips, back end, and nose for the pax and general observation.
     
  20. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,393
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    I know, Mr. Moller. Any day now, any day.
    Sorry wrong scam.
     
  21. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    And...more videos of making molds. :mad:
     
  22. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,269
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    This thing's door is more complicated than a commercial jet's.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  23. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
  24. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,269
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    Every time he pronounces a hard C or a K...he's got that spit click goin' on.
     
  25. rtk11

    rtk11 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,145
    Location:
    Southern California
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rtk
    While I hope that everything will come to fruition with the Raptor aircraft, I can’t help but wonder how the heck he can fund this venture for this long. He’s got 3-5 people working in the shop (Jeff full time) and his own cost of living to manage.

    Hopefully the VW/Audi 3.0 TDI engine will work out. He’s spending a lot of time perfecting that configuration as well.

    Still... I watch and see how things progress. Hopefully the aircraft will see the light of day this year.
     
  26. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,421
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    I give this guy mad props for the consistent work and updates. In the world of vaporware and VCs jerking each other off this is refreshing. Just good old fashion vision and hard work
     
  27. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,137
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DaleB
    When I first saw the web site I dismissed it as someone's idle fantasy. I am happy (and a little surprised) to see that they're actually building an airplane... and I know that takes a LOT of time, so the progress actually doesn't look bad.

    I do think his projection of cost once they're done is nothing short of a deranged fantasy. The history of the airplane business is littered with the corpses of companies started by airplane guys who have no idea how to manage finances or run a business, but the fact that he'd even think those numbers are worth stating kind of makes me question his grip on reality.
     
  28. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,717
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Lancair, Glasair, Vans and Velocity all had flying prototypes in 1-3 years and kits shipping soon after. Dan Maher had the Velocity prototype done in 8 months. Heck, it took Rutan only 3 years to design, build and fly the Voyager!

    It’s ridiculous to take 5+ years to produce a prototype and they’re still not even close to first flight. I’ve been watching molds for 4 years now. Been watching the construction of a door for over a year. At this rate, if I’m number 1000 in the deposit line, I’ll be long dead before my aircraft is ready for final assembly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
    Timbeck2 likes this.
  29. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,270
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    after watching their videos, i want nothing to do with a high performance aircraft that uses PVC water pipe in it for anything!
    bob
     
  30. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    5,278
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    What are those PVC pipe bundles for?
     
  31. rtk11

    rtk11 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,145
    Location:
    Southern California
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rtk
    Running wire down the length of the fuselage, presumably to the engine, wings, gear.
     
  32. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,195
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    People still talking about this necro-farce? Must be a slow day at POA. Real-world equivalent of trolling is what this is. Some people are born to be swindled I suppose. 6 years for a piston conceptual? LOL We cleaned up WWII in 4, and we we went from flying ford pintos (P40s) to Chevy ZR1s (P51) in half that time. You guys gotta up the trolling ante, at least the titlwing guy made a millenial-friendly iThingy styled YT video for his snake oil. :D

    ETA: PVC? LOL Hey, what do yo get after you buy a Raptor kit and 6 years? Answer: a complete plumbing and tub bathroom set for your guest bath. :D
     
  33. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    5,278
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    I counted 8 of them in two sets of 4 when I went back to look at the vid a second time. Seems a lot of extra weight for that purpose.
     
  34. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,698
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Septic?
     
    deonb likes this.