#Rant: Biannual Flight Review instead of Aircraft Checkout?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by RyanLikesFlying, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    Ok, I'm going to not ****, moan, bitch or complain. But have a bit of a rant and some follow up questions.

    Has anyone ever gone to a club or flight school to do a checkout so you can rent from them and been told they do a BFR instead of a checkout? I am already part of a club in Charlotte but the Air National Guard throws a little money at us for tuition assistance but it has to be at a 141 school. So I had some money sent to a school about an hour flight/2.5 hour drive. I figure I can fly up there in the club plane, burn 2 hours round trip and fly on the Guard's money a little bit.

    So I fly up there on Tuesday. Sit down with a CFI and he informs me they do a BFR instead of a checkout. I tell him I had my PP check ride back in July and am no where near needing it. Its their policy though. Ok, I guess I can roll with this... so he pulls out this long checklist and commences to quiz me for a little over an hour on a repeat of my PP check ride. Now I'm not saying I have forgotten it all by any means but there was a bit of dust present. Luckily I had my FAR/AIM with me and I asked if it was ok if I referenced it a few times. This was literally more challenging than my oral (probably because I wasn't prepared this time around). So at this point I've already paid for an hour of time with the CFI....

    We head out to their C-172 G1000. I've never flown a G1000 equipped aircraft so I tell him I may need a few extra minutes but did alot of my training in a C-162 with the G300 and am familiar with an MFD/PFD and how Garmin lays things out. He began to instruct me as if I was a day one student, even during the preflight. He corrects most of my radio calls because I am not doing it per "the schools script."

    We take off and head to their practice area. Do some basic maneuvers. Nothing cosmic. Was I perfect? Never. But it was pretty good. It would have passed a FAA Private Pilot check ride. Landings were textbook.

    We taxi back, button up the airplane, etc. He is showing me how the school ties their knot on the tie down, yada yada. As we are walking back he says, "Well, I'm not exactly sure how to tell you this... but I think you could use another flight or two before you'd be ready to rent from us. Thing is, I'm not exactly sure why. Youre landings were perfect, radio work was a little sloppy, and maneuvers weren't bad. I just think you could use another flight."

    I was definitely a bit shocked and surprised. I didnt really even know what to say. I asked him if I did something unsafe. He says no, "your stalls were a little sloppy, but thats not surprising. No one really practices stalls." No **** dude, I don't go out a stall the plane for fun and by nature, stalls are a bit "sloppy."

    We do a short admin stop, he gives me some paperwork, and sends me on my way. The flight was 1.4 hours. The cost of this was $400 after rental and CFI. Plus a 2 hour round trip flight in the club plane (which I safely flew by myself, transiting Class Bravo airspace with no issues).

    So, rant over. Who has had a BFR as part of a checkout? Does this seem extreme? This particularly flight school is known for bleeding students dry. I have FIVE coworkers at the Guard that have had money sent up there and not one has finished. They keep dragging you through more and more training. Their Chief CFI is also the DPE they use (conflict of interest???) so during progress checks with the person you will take your check ride, he informs you that you need to fly more (with their instructors).

    Do I pull the money out and send it to another school? Or do I suck up my pride and go back? I'm leaning toward yanking the money and spending it elsewhere. I'm just ****ed how the whole thing went down and needed to vent to someone other than my non-pilot mortal wife.
     
  2. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow, I would have asked him to continue the flight until he was satisfied with my proficiency. I would not go back!
     
  3. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Lol every time I hear about part 141 I’m reminded of why I prefer part 61 schools.

    Sounds like bs to me.
     
  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds fishy. Maybe report the school to the VA (or whomever pays for the training). Definite conflict there w/ the Chief CFI too. Maybe a visit to your Commander and inform of the scam.

    Run Forest Run.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  5. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I would never go back to a place like that. This place isn’t in the business to provide individuals with airplanes to fly, their in it solely for themselves. Don’t waste your time.
     
  6. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    I absolutely would have asked for that... If I would have known before we were done and walking in.

    My thoughts too. I should have known it was gonna be a **** show when I came in and not only were their instructors wearing those awesome airline uniforms but their poor students had the same ones on, but in blue...
     
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  7. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    Go somewhere else, it doesn’t sound like you’re off to a good start. A checkout at my club is basically a BFR, but it’s not a check ride. It’s a time to learn, knock the rust off if need be, and demostrate safe operation/good ADM. If there’s a problem area, we’ll anchor there until we get it fixed. I try my best to make it very relaxed.
     
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  8. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I got a checkout as part of a BFR,I requested the BFR. Usually a checkout is a short ride around the pattern,and some general ground school,and the schools policy’s.
     
  9. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This. I’ve done a few BFRs in Aircraft I’ve never flown before just to kill two birds with one stone. But never dealt with a place that insisted on a BFR as a checkout.

    This place sounds like the kind of place to run away from.
     
  10. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    When he told you he wasn’t sure why but really felt like you need more training I would have told him he was being unprofessional and didn’t meet my standards as a CFI. Never go back.
     
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  11. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    Can I rant about people calling it a "biannual" flight review? :)
    Nothing biannual about it.
     
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  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yup it's just Flight Review now.
     
  14. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    *Biennial*
     
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  15. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Except it’s still required to be done every two years. That’s why it was silly when the FAA said they were no longer calling it a Biennial Flight Review.....because all the did was change the name without changing the periodicity.
     
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  16. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    guvm't :rolleyes:
     
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  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    These 141 schools are milking the VA money. If you look at some of the cost comparisons between 61 and 141, it's outrageous. Obviously more instruction is involved in 141 but they can see DOD money a mile away. Same thing happened when the TA program AVOTEC was in effect. Local school I went to cranked up their rates because they knew DOD would pay and then when we deployed, they closed up shop and ran with the money. Bunch of these schools would shut the doors today if the VA terminated the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

    If you just got your PPL this year you should just need a thorough checkout in the aircraft. If you fly for the ANG, your annual rides or whatever you all do, qualifies for a FR as well. No need for another one.
     
  18. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    Thats exactly what I thought. I knew it
    Thats exactly what my club did. It was just general club rules, this is where this is, this is how we do that. Log book and medical review. Then 45 minute flight after a little longer preflight so you knew the plane. Ok, youre safe, competent, welcome aboard.
     
  19. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    You guys are all correct. I knew better and know its called just a Flight Review. I see more folks call it a BFR than anything. I should have been reading it off the schools script. ;)
     
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  20. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I don't agree to one flight review in 2 years. As I pilot technically I can not fly for 23 months, go up with a CFI around the pattern few times and appear for the flight review and by some miracle if I pass, I just don't think I am a safe pilot. I am planning 6 month flight review, lot of pro pilots do that.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
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  21. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    @RyanLikesFlying a FR (Flight Review) does consist of a minimum of one hour ground and a minimum of a one hour flight. FYI but I still think that school is hosing people and should be reported. Where is this?
     
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  22. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    With all the scrutiny that came about a few years ago when the helo schools were caught milking the VA, you’d think these schools would clean up their act.
     
  23. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    Stay away from them.

    Flight Reviews (not to be confused with BFR which is an incorrect term) do not require proficiency to the ACS.

    There is little structure to what the ground portion contains, other than it be an hour. Usually I'd use that time on local area orientation and specifics for the panel if I'm not familiar with something like that G1000.

    If your air work wasn't scary the guy is just needs braces (for him or his kid) OR the outfit is a total rip off.

    I had one like that in Boston. Never went back.

    Now then, an hour on the ground for area orientation and an hour in the plane for the checkout sounds great. And if they "happen" to call it a flight review that is icing on the cake. Flight reviews must be AT LEAST every 2 years, but more frequent isn't a bad thing if you're not getting ripped off.
     
  24. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    YOU need to apply for a job at this flight school. PR sounds good for you. ;)
     
  25. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    I agree. This sort of relationship seems dead wrong. I could report it as a bad way of doing things but is there anything technically wrong with their arrangement?

    It WAS the closest 141 school but recently one popped up half the distance from Charlotte so all the Guard guys are no longer going to the school in question. I just already had the money up there and figured I would give it a try. I should have known better with their reputation at the base.
     
  26. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Minimum of one hour, and has to include a Part 91 review.

    61.56 Flight review.
    (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:

    (1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and

    (2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.
     
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  27. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    I would love to see the comparison. 141 advertises like you get more thorough training and faster but I just dont see how thats the case.

    I actually contacted this school before I had my PPC awhile back following a deployment after I had my written done and was post solo and they still wanted me to complete 30 hours of ground training as if I didnt have my ground test done. The only reason I could come up with is was keeping the money flowing in.

    Sadly, no longer fly in the ANG. I was a backseater/Navigator and now fly a desk as an Intel Officer.
     
  28. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    You are absolutely right. I was just so caught off guard by it, it took several minutes to compute what had just happened LOL
     
  29. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Some do, others do annual recurrency, which is probably enough especially if you fly frequently.
     
  30. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    His ground training was one they use locally and they called it a Flight Review. We went over mostly the basics; VFR WX, airspace, equipment requirements, etc. It had nothing to do with local area procedures, G1000 stuff, even their checkout procedures. That was after the hour we spent while still on the clock. Airwork was not scary in the least.

    My account that has the Guard's money sitting in it was charged 1.4 hours of flight time at $145 an hour and 2.6 hours of ground instruction at $50 an hour. You would think that if they guy found a deficiency he would have asked me to repeat something and used his experience and instructor's license to correct it.
     
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  31. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Dude, I have 10 (or 20 or 30) years flying. Two years is nothing. Flight review and done. No BS from a milking CFI.
     
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  32. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    Thanks, I was gonna look this up anyway. I'm sure when they are notified they need to mail a check to the State of NC for $4,000, I will get an email or phone call from them as to why. There was absolutely no question that there was a safety of flight issue or concerns.
     
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  33. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    $400 for 1.4 hours of dual plus the ground time? Highway robbery. Our club (don't know if it's a club or insurance requirement) requires the equivalent of an FAA flight review every year. Needless to say, I don't worry about the FAA on this score. Haven't "failed" one yet. And the first one (years ago) was my first time flying the club's Arrow. CFI thought a review was a great time to introduce a new wrinkle - folding gear. I liked his thought process.

    Oh, and what do these cost? 1 hour of time in a club plane is a maximum of $129 (C-182). Would be less with one of the C-172s. 2 hours of CFI time is maybe $100, so this whole thing is less than $250. $400? Wow.
     
  34. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    Oh their prices are insane! I pay HALF per hour of what they charge wet for our club plane. My rational was have the Guard send the money there, I fly round trip there for $150. Pick up their plane and go fly for a few hours or take my wife to the beach and back and not spend my money. Its expensive for sure but its an incentive for being in the Guard, an opportunity to build time, and go fly.

    If the Guard was willing to send it to a Part 61 school, alot more guys would probably use it to fly instead of college. I can see why it has to be 141 as its regulated and you would have some shady operators collecting the governments money and taking advantage of folks. Granted, it sure does look like this operation is doing just that. And they are really pulling in guys on Post 9/11 and VA funded programs too. Us National Guard guys are just a taste of the government racket they have going on from my observation.
     
  35. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    That's actually a Part 141 requirement, you have to complete the approved syllabus for both flight and ground portions.
     
  36. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    They are both 141 and 61. I informed them I wanted to do 61 due to my ground test done and hours rolling into it. They still wanting to push their 141 requirements on their 61 students.
     
  37. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    Can VA benefits go to Part 61 schools? I may have misheard it, but I thought my primary instructor told me he got Part 141 authorized in order to do VA/GI bill paid training.
     
  38. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not to my knowledge. At least when I used it.
     
  39. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Nah, am just saying about flight review, not about this school. This flight school is robbery

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  40. RyanLikesFlying

    RyanLikesFlying Pre-Flight

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    I'm not 100% either but I agree, I believe VA is also Part 141 only.