Random ATC Requests

Cajun_Flyer

Cajun_Flyer

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Cajun Flyer
Question for the ATCers out there.

I'm a student pilot trying to refine my skills in solo time. Returning from another airport last week, I botched up reentering the downwind coming out of a left 360 in right closed traffic. I reentered too tight into the runway, not leaving myself enough space to turn base. Not normally a big deal, but traffic was extra busy that day and there was really no room for mistakes like that. I had traffic straight ahead at my 1:00 coming out his own 360 from the left pattern. Because ATC knew my SP status, they were very accommodating and helped me work my way out of the situation. The other pilot confirmed visual, moved out of my way and offered some words of encouragement. Thanks to both ATC and the other pilot, I was able to stay calm, maneuver and get safely back on the ground.

I plan to go up again early tomorrow. If it's a calm, light traffic morning, I would love to be able to practice reentering downwind out of couple left 360s in right closed pattern, but I don't know if it would be considered appropriate to make that request of tower. Would that be frowned upon? Obviously, I would never make such a request of ATC if there's a lot of traffic and they are busy.

Also, a point of anxiety for me when I'm solo is wondering if they are going to toss me something I don't know how to execute. My airport gets pretty hustle-bustle, so you never know what they are going to throw at you when ****'s hitting the fan. Is it ever OK for a SP on a slow traffic day to ask ATC to throw them a couple curveballs for practice? If so, what's the best way to make that request?
 
I call the tower on the telephone and explain in plain English what I would like and why.

If they agree to my request I repeat it when talking to ground on the ground frequency.

Most of what I have had to do for traffic in the pattern is left or right 360s, extend my down wind or go around. I don’t recall anything that I was asked to do that was difficult to execute.

A word to remember is “unable”. Use it whenever a request from ATC makes you uncomfortable. ATC will work it out.

It reads like you might want to practice turns around a point to sharpen your standard rate 360 degree turns in relation to ground track. Maneuvers in the pattern involve ground reference. The pattern with all its other distractions may not be the best place to practice ground reference maneuvers.
 
Sure, it's ok to ask on a slow day any specific procedures you may want to do. I would ask after I call ground and tell them what I want to work on, or ask tower long before you get a take off clearance, so there's time to explain what you want.
 
On a slow day they'll let you do just about anything. Just ask. If you have a request that could take more than 10 seconds to say, give them a call first so you don't block the frequency


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I'm trying to figure out why a controller would have you make a left 360 in right closed traffic while else is making a left 360 in left closed traffic. Sounds like he was trying to set up a collision not avoid one.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm trying to figure out why a controller would have you make a left 360 in right closed traffic while else is making a left 360 in left closed traffic. Sounds like he was trying to set up a collision not avoid one.
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The other pilot did a RIGHT 360 in LT. If he had done a left one, he'd have been over the runway. I came out before the other pilot and was put 4th in line for landing. He was put 5th in line. There was nothing unsafe going on... well, other than me! ::oops:
 
Thanks everyone for the advice. Calling first is a good idea.
 
Back in the days when Reagan fired all the controllers and they where training new ones I was a fresh solo student pilot. My instructed wanted me to practice take off and landings and working with the tower at DAY. While getting taxi instructions the controller asked me if I would mind working with a trainee. I was nervous but said fine. A young lady came on and it was one of the most fun hours I have had flying. DAY was much busier then than now and I did touch and goes on both their runways among the big guys. 360 s on final, sent out of the pattern and back in, great fun and I learned so much. When I got back to the FBO the tower supervisor called me to thank for indulging them! Quite a thrill and I later took up his offer for a tour of the tower. Since I have always found ATC to be easy to work with. Tell them what you would like todo, relax and enjoy!
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Returning from another airport last week, I botched up reentering the downwind coming out of a left 360 in right closed traffic. I reentered too tight into the runway, not leaving myself enough space to turn base.
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This does not seem like an ATC-practice deficiency. It's one of ground reference. Has your CFI had you do pattern 8's? "Eights along a road", I would think, are what you should be doing, not 360s on the downwind.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
This does not seem like an ATC-practice deficiency. It's one of ground reference. Has your CFI had you do pattern 8's? "Eights along a road", I would think, are what you should be doing, not 360s on the downwind.

dtuuri
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Yes, we've gone over all of that and I practice those things out on my own... no problem. I can even nail a right 360 in left pattern pretty well. Something about right pattern stuff just throws me off. It's more RT that I need to work on, and directions issued from it. We're typically in left traffic, so that's probably why.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Yes, we've gone over all of that and I practice those things out on my own... no problem. I can even nail a right 360 in left pattern pretty well. Something about right pattern stuff just throws me off. It's more RT that I need to work on, and directions issued from it. We're typically in left traffic, so that's probably why.
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Does the left-hand loop of an eight along a road also cause you to misjudge drift?

dtuuri
 
Calling and asking ahead of time like described above are good ideas. You can also just ask for a 360 while already on downwind. You seem to have a good handle on sensing how busy it is and knowing when it would not be such a great time to ask. Here's one you might ask for sometime, a 270 to base. It would be a left one when in right traffic and a right one when in left traffic. Sooner or later you're likely to get one sprung on you.
 
On of the best things you can say is "student pilot" any time you are up. "Student Pilot" and "New Pilot" were the best phrases that my CFI taught me. Controllers will take the extra time to be sure that everything is clear.

Don't ever be afraid to make a request to ATC...we all strive for the preverbial "perfect lingo" but sometimes just plain ol English is perfectly acceptable as long as it stays short and sweet and not a long winded ramble. If they are too busy to accomodate a request, the will tell ya.

"Tower, Cessna 12XZY Student Pilot holding short Runway XX for closed traffic... would like to do a a few practice 360's on downwind legs if possible"
 
Shawn said:
On of the best things you can say is "student pilot" any time you are up. "Student Pilot" and "New Pilot" were the best phrases that my CFI taught me. Controllers will take the extra time to be sure that everything is clear.

Don't ever be afraid to make a request to ATC...we all strive for the preverbial "perfect lingo" but sometimes just plain ol English is perfectly acceptable as long as it stays short and sweet and not a long winded ramble. If they are too busy to accomodate a request, the will tell ya.

"Tower, Cessna 12XZY Student Pilot holding short Runway XX for closed traffic... would like to do a a few practice 360's on downwind legs if possible"
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That's a really good example and is a good "template" for all kinds of requests.
 
Shawn said:
On of the best things you can say is "student pilot" any time you are up. "Student Pilot" and "New Pilot" were the best phrases that my CFI taught me. Controllers will take the extra time to be sure that everything is clear.

Don't ever be afraid to make a request to ATC...we all strive for the preverbial "perfect lingo" but sometimes just plain ol English is perfectly acceptable as long as it stays short and sweet and not a long winded ramble. If they are too busy to accomodate a request, the will tell ya.

"Tower, Cessna 12XZY Student Pilot holding short Runway XX for closed traffic... would like to do a a few practice 360's on downwind legs if possible"
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With the blessing of AIM 4-2-1(b): "...."use whatever words are necessary to get your message across."

Bob Gardner
 
Vern B said:
When I got back to the FBO the tower supervisor called me to thank for indulging them! Quite a thrill and I later took up his offer for a tour of the tower. Since I have always found ATC to be easy to work with. Tell them what you would like todo, relax and enjoy!
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I would suggest a tower visit Cajun, and for all the other students and rated pilots if you haven't done so. You'll find that they are human just like you, gladly explain things/procedures, offer hints to make your flight more enjoyable etc.

Sounds like maybe wind drift was part of the problem but you did the right thing with the tower. If you roll out after a 360 onto a downwind heading and feel you're too close to the runway, instead of flying your normal downwind heading take a cut to the left to get your spacing then turn back to your normal downwind heading. For example, say you normally fly a 090 heading on downwind for runway 27 but you feel you're too close. Instead fly say 080 or 070 (whatever) until you're where you want to be from the runway, then turn back to 090. You might even throw in a WCA (wind correction angle) of say, 10 degrees left (080) to compensate for the wind blowing you towards the runway. Think about when you practice rectangular course, same thing really.
 
I was departing RIC one day and just told ground I wanted to head north. They asked what my destination was and I told them IAD but we had planned to make a few low passes over Kings Dominion (local theme park, closed for the season at the time) for the kids. Upon being handed off to departure I was told, "Report Kings Dominion in sight." As we approached the park the controller just told me to let him know when I was ready to head on.
 
Thanks everyone! I always announce my status as student pilot... that's probably the only reason they were so nice to me during my mishap the other day.

I ended up not calling the tower before going out this morning. Forecast was sunny with low winds, so I figured it was likely to be busy. If not, I planned to make my request after run-up. But, yeah, when out got out that way, planes were already being pushed in and out back-to-back. The plane in front of me holding short at the runway was told there would be a 7 minute clearance wait due to a plane coming in out of Boston with a gear emergency. The heavy out of Boston radioed in a low-approach request so the tower could inspect his nose gear, which, thankfully, turned out to be fine. It was a chaotic Sunday morning, so I figured I'd be tossed a lot of curve balls anyway without having to ask for them.

Little did I know those curve balls would come from the weather conditions, not the tower. I received a weather briefing before going out and had my ATIS info, so I knew there would be some crosswinds. But they turned out to be stronger than anticipated and quickly taught me that I need A LOT more practice in them before doing them on my own, so it ended up being a short morning. I was only inches from touching down on my first T/G when I had to execute a go-around. Funny how even the most beautiful of days can turn out to be crazy like that! Part of the fun... never know what's going to happen.
 
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Sounds like you fly out of KBED,one of the busiest,training airports in the area. Got my license there in 1969. Was even busier in those days. If you can fly out of Bedford you'll be good anywhere.
 
frfly172 said:
Sounds like you fly out of KBED,one of the busiest,training airports in the area. Got my license there in 1969. Was even busier in those days. If you can fly out of Bedford you'll be good anywhere.
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It's rarely dull there. If there's one thing I nailed down early on, it's ATC communication! It's funny when I read other pilots who fly out of non-towered airports express their anxiety about flying into towered ones... I feel the opposite way. I wouldn't even know where to begin flying into a low traffic, non-towered airport.
 
Is the Air Force still there? Used to be called Hanscom Air Force Base I think.
 
Yep. In fact, I'm there almost as often for work as I am to fly, as I've been training the National Guard on a few things.

I had to be driven out to the hangar this morning to get my plane and we passed an F-15 parked on one of the ramps. The guy driving joked that if he finds out my solo endorsement had expired, he was going to send that guy after me. I laughed... nervously lol :)
 
Oh you work on Hanscom, civil service? No USAF flying units there are there?
 
Throughout the course of my instrument training last summer and fall, I asked a lot of "odd" things of ATC. Never got scolded or an annoyed attitude.

Bottom line, if you want to do something, just ask. There is no unreasonable request, as long as it's a safe one. You'll either get approved as requested or an unable. Life goes on either way:)
 
mscard88 said:
Oh you work on Hanscom, civil service?
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I'm a state employee... only work on Hanscom when I need to visit the National Guard's Join Force Headquarters to teach them some of my magic tricks. Don't know much about the USAF there.
 
Haha your magic tricks (dirty mind sorry)! I thought the base had closed. The mission has something to do with the life cycle of weapons. Started off as a reliever airport for BOS but in 1941 the War Department took it over. The runways used to be part of the base during WW2 when they trained P-40 Warhawks pilots there. Later released the airport back to Mass.
 
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