Rand Paul & TSA

Really? I'd be interested to see the US Supreme Court ruling which says that -- the USSC being, per Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803), the final arbiter of what "the highest law of the land" actually means. Absent such an finding, the TSA is operating legally whether we (or Rand Paul) like it or not.

There has been no ruling saying it is constitutional either, a la Patriot Act or Obamacare.

There is no Constitutional article or USSC decision calling for or permitting a non-military Federal police force.

TSA is as close to the SS as you can get. Seaches and seizure without any warrants or due process.
 
Someone forgot to tell him that being a senator does not exempt him from routine security procedures to board commercial airliners. :sigh: Politicians...always think they're better than the rest of us. His only recourse lies in getting 50 of his senatorial colleagues and 218 in the House to change the laws which require this.

Yeah but they'll probably just make it so they don't have to put up with TSA gropefests while the rest of us peons still do.
 
Really? I'd be interested to see the US Supreme Court ruling which says that -- the USSC being, per Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803), the final arbiter of what "the highest law of the land" actually means. Absent such an finding, the TSA is operating legally whether we (or Rand Paul) like it or not.

Handy when a body (Supreme Court) gets to decide, themselves, that they are the final arbiter of right and wrong.
 
Sorry Ron, but you're off base on this one.
You are NOT free to leave once the screening process has begun.
From the TSA's own blog: TSA clearly takes the position that once you begin screening, 49CFR1540 prohibits you from leaving. That's a detention.
You're right -- I'm not. But because of that clause in the Constitution, Senator Paul is -- just not into the security area, only back the way he came.
 
Someone forgot to tell him that being a senator does not exempt him from routine security procedures to board commercial airliners. :sigh: Politicians...always think they're better than the rest of us. His only recourse lies in getting 50 of his senatorial colleagues and 218 in the House to change the laws which require this.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

The point of the TSA is to stop terrorists. A well known congressman is not a threat.

The Tsa needs to be WIPED off the map and restructured. Obama appoints the tsa leader correct?
 
Actually, the US Supreme Court has not ruled on the legality of the current processes in place. So it is not factually correct to state that the TSA in operating Constitutionally according to Marbury.
No, but they have ruled repeatedly on the Constitutionality of airline pre-boarding security in general, and that it is neither "arrest" nor "detention" in violation of the Constitution, as well as the requirement for all persons to go through it.
 
Sorry but I completely disagree.

The point of the TSA is to stop terrorists. A well known congressman is not a threat.

The Tsa needs to be WIPED off the map and restructured. Obama appoints the tsa leader correct?
You can disagree all you want with the law, but the law on point is clear -- Senator Paul has no exemption from the security process.
 
Handy when a body (Supreme Court) gets to decide, themselves, that they are the final arbiter of right and wrong.
Well, you can feel free to challenge that, but the Executive and Legislative branches have accepted that ruling for over 200 years, and I just don't see it being revisited. Having read it in its entirety, I really am impressed by its completeness, logic, and the care with which it was constructed.
 
You're right -- I'm not. But because of that clause in the Constitution, Senator Paul is -- just not into the security area, only back the way he came.

I don't think he should have been prohibited to board in this circumstance. Can you really think of a good reason? The tsa may have had the letter of the law right to prevent him from boarding, but doing so was a senseless and pointless act. A US senator needs a pat down to fly delta?? What the hell.

The reason that clause is in the constitution is to ensure no monkey business goes on that would cause a senator to miss a vote. Preventing him from boarding (even if they did let him go, just not into a security area) could cause this and violates the intent of the constitution. He may not have time to arrange private air travel. And if he did, he would certainly be criticized for flying on a corporate jet.
 
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I don't think he should have been prohibited to board in this circumstance. Can you really think of a good reason?
I won't say it's a "good" reason, but I will say that the reason is the law requires it and he is not exempt from that law.

The reason that clause is in the constitution is to ensure no monkey business goes on that would cause a senator to miss a vote. Preventing him from boarding (even if they did let him go, just not into a security area) could cause this and violates the intent of the constitution. He may not have time to arrange private air travel. And if he did, he would certainly be criticized for flying on a corporate jet.
That's his own fault for not allowing enough time to get there without boarding a commercial aircraft.
 
Conservatives understand the federal government does not do anything well. Anything at all. I defy anyone to point to anything the federal government does well.

I really shouldn't do this. It's a character flaw, it really is.

Lets see:

The government put a man on the moon. In fact, it put a bunch of guys up there, and brought them all back in one piece. Only ones to ever do so.

We've never been invaded. Closest we've come is when a pack of lawless Arabs blew up a couple buildings. More folks got killed in traffic accidents that month.

Our Federal aviation system is one of if not the safest in the world.

Our research institutes haven't cured cancer, but they made a vaccine for one kind and turned a bunch of others from death sentences to manageable diseases. Beat back the threat of AIDS as well, the biggest emerging health threat in more than one country. Beat small pox, polio, cholera, malaria and a host of other diseases that killed tens of thousands of Americans every year.

I could easily go on, but I do have other things to do. I just can't stand this sort of hyperbole. The surest way to loose everything to forget everything we have.
 
We've never been invaded. Closest we've come is when a pack of lawless Arabs blew up a couple buildings. More folks got killed in traffic accidents that month.

Wow, pretty cool that a country that's never been invaded managed to have it's executive mansion burned by foreign troops. How'd that happen, anyway?
 
Wow, pretty cool that a country that's never been invaded managed to have it's executive mansion burned by foreign troops. How'd that happen, anyway?

Good point, you got me there. It's just that these diatribes about the government doing unconstitutional things usually translate to the government doing things the diatriber doesn't like. The Feds have ignored SCOTUS rulings in the past, but not in my lifetime. They have struck down plenty of Federal laws though.

The Federal government acts in concert with the Constitution as it's read today, and not as the diatribers think the founders intended it to be read, or how the diatribers themselves think it ought to be read. Because for every diatriber who thinks it should be read one way, there's another who thinks it should be read differently. So we hire a bunch of guys to be the arbiters and abide by what they say even though it usually makes everyone unhappy. Like it or not, the government that makes everyone unhappy is usually the best one.

Like I said, I really should stop doing this. I've posted this very thing before.
 
The Federal government acts in concert with the Constitution as it's read today, and not as the diatribers think the founders intended it to be read, or how the diatribers themselves think it ought to be read. Because for every diatriber who thinks it should be read one way, there's another who thinks it should be read differently. So we hire a bunch of guys to be the arbiters and abide by what they say even though it usually makes everyone unhappy. Like it or not, the government that makes everyone unhappy is usually the best one.
We KNOW what the founders intended. It's NOT a big secret. They wrote the Federalist Papers, extensive letters, etc... That's a non-argument.

Ryan
 
We KNOW what the founders intended. It's NOT a big secret. They wrote the Federalist Papers, extensive letters, etc... That's a non-argument.

Ryan

The Federalist Papers were written by some (3 IIRC) of the founders, by no means do they represent the intent of all the founders.

The intent of all of the founders can only be determined by the one document that they actually agreed to...the Constitution itself. Extrinsic evidence like the Federalist Papers are not part of that at all.
 
We KNOW what the founders intended. It's NOT a big secret. They wrote the Federalist Papers, extensive letters, etc... That's a non-argument.

Ryan

If they truly wanted all that in the Constitution it would be there. They left it out, so we decide, which is probably best in the long run.
 
If they truly wanted all that in the Constitution it would be there. They left it out, so we decide, which is probably best in the long run.
I beg to differ. There are also the records of the Constitutional Convention. They explained why they did what they did, and would not recognize how their document has been twisted. I suspect that if they had foreseen how it would be twisted, they would have worked harder to prevent it. The original words themselves are pretty clear. It's the hard and prolonged efforts of subsequent generations that have twisted the words in today's minds.
Those who wrongly interpret the Constitution today, do so because either they want to, or have been brainwashed into seeing it in a twisted light.

Ryan
 
The founders did not agree on everything. The constitution was a compromise just like everything else political
 
I beg to differ.
Ryan

Differ all you like. It's a free country. I happen to have a different opinion. So instead of internal wars, we have a bunch of reasonably smart people who are supposedly neutral (supposedly) who decide these things for us. Sometimes we like what they have to say, sometimes not.

I'm pretty certain that those guys can read as well as you.

More importantly, as much as you like trumpeting the US as a Republic, it operates on democratic principles, and you are in the minority. Sucks for you.
 
He was not detained, and he was not "placed in a box and told that he could not leave." He was told he'd have to get X-rayed or patted down if he wanted to enter the security area and board his flight. He declined, and was permitted to leave.

Ron, he'd been through the full-body xray. He showed them the specific area in question (his knee) by lifting his pants leg. They told him he would have to have a full body pat-down. The whole point of the body scanners is to identify specific areas of the body that need to be checked and enable the TSA to check only those specific area.

I've had a screener demand that I expose parts of my body (remove clothing) to show them a bandaged wound.

Second, at most airports, the process is to place the subject waiting for a pat-down into a plexiglas box and not allow them to leave when patted down. They are NOT free to leave the checkpoint, and as Alan pointed out, no one is permitted to leave until they've completed the full-monte TSA process. "Or else". That is arguably "detention".

Third, this is not the first time that folks engaging in political activities have been subject to particular attention by the TSA. The Bierfeldt case involved the TSA looking for large amounts of cash and stopping a campaign worker returning from a fundraiser.

Complying with security procedures is one thing. The risk, of course, is that an Administration could use the "security procedure" to impede a candidate or politician from the opposing party. I'm not suggesting that happened here, but I could imagine an Administration like Nixon's abusing the process (especially since the policies are secret). The Constitution is intended to prevent that kind of abuse.

He was told he had to get patted down because he set off the metal detector. That's standard procedure.

This was the body scanner, not the metal detector. The body scanner allows the screener to know exactly where the possible object of concern is. In most cases I've seen (and TSA has stated), one reason that the body scanner is used is to limit the area on the body that needs to be searched.

I suspect that if the pat-down was limited to just his knee, it might have been a different story.
 
The government put a man on the moon. In fact, it put a bunch of guys up there, and brought them all back in one piece. Only ones to ever do so.
Yes, they did. In the typical government fashion (by throwing massive amounts of money and resources at the project in a cost-no-object fashion), and killing the crew of Apollo 1 in the process. It cost over $120 billion in 2009 dollars. And then we walked away from it all.

Also, you have to look at things over time. Like most things the government does, they did great at the start, then the organization became more concerned with its own bureaucratic survival than the mission of the organization. The Shuttle tries to be all things to all people, and ended up fulfilling few of its promises, costing several times more than expected, for less capability.
Now we have a space station we have to depend on the Russians to support.

We've never been invaded. Closest we've come is when a pack of lawless Arabs blew up a couple buildings. More folks got killed in traffic accidents that month.
Except the war of 1812, Pearl Harbor, and the invasion of the Aleutians. Plus the loss of the US territories of the Philippines, the Marianas Islands, and many other Pacific possessions.

Again, look at how things go over time. How's the "War on Terror" going? Or is that the "War on Extremism"? Or now the "plans to deal with human-caused disasters", since we can't use the words terrorist or terrorism, or name the people who are our enemies?

The military is a system that is inherently governmental, but will you honestly say that if functions well? How's the F22 production working out? How's the F35, that now has a fundamental flaw with tailhook placement of a plane that was supposed to carrier based, that no one noticed over the last six years, and they have no idea how to fix it? In the meantime, Congress is forcing the production of a second engine supplier that no one in DoD wants.
Or the B2, that literally costs more than its weight in gold? Or the A22 that was cancelled after spending billions of dollars without even a functioning prototype?

Our Federal aviation system is one of if not the safest in the world.
Despite the FAA's best efforts to kill GA. Do you really want to hold up the FAA as a model of governmental efficiency?
Our research institutes haven't cured cancer, but they made a vaccine for one kind and turned a bunch of others from death sentences to manageable diseases. Beat back the threat of AIDS as well, the biggest emerging health threat in more than one country. Beat small pox, polio, cholera, malaria and a host of other diseases that killed tens of thousands of Americans every year.
Most of the work on smallpox was done by non-federal labs. The US government had nothing to do with developing the smallpox vaccine. Dr. Jenner did that on his own nearly 100 years earlier.

Name one new vaccine that came from a federal lab, as opposed to pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest on solving the problem, where government funded labs have a vested interest in prolonging the problem.

In the meantime, the government has banned the most effective pesticides, and malaria (once almost eliminated) came roaring back. The EPA's ban on DDT (followed by pressure on third world governments to eliminate its use under threat of losing funding and support) has killed over 100 million people worldwide, due to the resurgence of the nearly eliminated malaria.

Also, look at the role of the Surgeon General, Rupert Blue, in the spread of the 1918 Flu pandemic. The federal Public Health Service did everything they could to prevent "panic" by suppressing information, refused to support antiseptic treatment and quarantine, and probably caused the death of more Americans that the Germans did in World War 1.

I could easily go on, but I do have other things to do. I just can't stand this sort of hyperbole. The surest way to loose everything to forget everything we have.

Agreed. We, as a society, have forgotten that actions and choices have consequences. In the name of "the environment" we eliminated pesticides that eliminated the threat of contagious disease, now they are returning. Malaria, cholera, West Nile, bedbugs, all did not exist in the past generation. Now they are coming back because we lack the will to act against them.
In the name of "freedom of conscience", allow people not to vaccinate their kids, and measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and others are roaring back into the child population (and killing them).
We won't even talk about Tuberculosis, which is steadily advancing through the population.


The same is true in energy, transportation, and many many other areas. I could easily go on, but I don't have time.
As you say, the surest way to lose everything is to forget what we have (and fail to maintain the incredible advances we have made).
 
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I beg to differ. There are also the records of the Constitutional Convention. They explained why they did what they did, and would not recognize how their document has been twisted. I suspect that if they had foreseen how it would be twisted, they would have worked harder to prevent it. The original words themselves are pretty clear. It's the hard and prolonged efforts of subsequent generations that have twisted the words in today's minds.
Those who wrongly interpret the Constitution today, do so because either they want to, or have been brainwashed into seeing it in a twisted light.

Ryan

The fact that someone at the Constitution Convention said "We should put this in there..." is completely irrelevant, unless the Convention actually put that in there, and in that case, the language of the Constitution then speaks for itself, without the words of whoever thought the phrase up.

I honestly don't give a crap why something was put into the Constitution. I care what was put in there. The private motives of members of the Constitutional Convention are no more valid that the private motives of those at the State ratification conventions, and are no more valid than anyone else's. Only the words ultimately chosen to be inserted, and subsequently ratified, are of import.
 
In answer to moon shots you wrote

Yes, they did. In the typical government fashion (by throwing massive amounts of money and resources at the project in a cost-no-object fashion), and killing the crew of Apollo 1 in the process. It cost over $120 billion in 2009 dollars. And then we walked away from it all.

If you thought they could do such a thing faster cheaper better, you might try explaining why no one has duplicated the feat. Plenty of folks have had plenty of reason to try. It was really, really hard, and we did it anyway.

Except the war of 1812, Pearl Harbor, and the invasion of the Aleutians. Plus the loss of the US territories of the Philippines, the Marianas Islands, and many other Pacific possessions.

You got me on the War of 1812, the British did come in and burn down the Capital. The Nips might have blown Pearl to kingdom come, but they didn't invade it or anything else. The Aleutians are not and have never been part of the CONUS. The Nips also left without a fight. Wasn't aware the Philippines and Marianas were part of the US. Obviously, geography ain't my strong suit.

The military is a system that is inherently governmental, but will you honestly say that if functions well? How's the F22 production working out? How's the F35, that now has a fundamental flaw with tailhook placement of a plane that was supposed to carrier based, that no one noticed over the last six years, and they have no idea how to fix it?

Every advanced weapon system ever invented has gone through teething pains since the invention of the rock.

Despite the FAA's best efforts to kill GA. Do you really want to hold up the FAA as a model of governmental efficiency?

If the FAA really wanted to kill GA, it would be dead. GA's biggest enemy is the American people, who are too busy/self involved/insufficiently motivated/broke to play.

Most of the work on smallpox was done by non-federal labs. The US government had nothing to do with developing the smallpox vaccine. Dr. Jenner did that on his own nearly 100 years earlier.

Yeah, mandated vaccinations had nothing to do with it. All those folks would have gone out and bought their shots. Good try.

Name one new vaccine that came from a federal lab, as opposed to pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest on solving the problem, where government funded labs have a vested interest in prolonging the problem.

Sabin's polio, the one everybody took. The HPV vaccine came out of a pharmaceutical company, but all the groundwork was laid at the NIH and the vaccine would have been impossible without it. By the way, the Fed funds, buys, and regulates most of the vaccines that go out every year. Without them there'd be none. They make little money for drug companies, and carry massive liability.

In the meantime, the government has banned the most effective pesticides, and malaria (once almost eliminated) came roaring back. The EPA's ban on DDT (followed by pressure on third world governments to eliminate its use under threat of losing funding and support) has killed over 100 million people worldwide, due to the resurgence of the nearly eliminated malaria.

Boy, when you misfire, you do it big. Over application of DDT had ruined entire ecosystems and was getting into people's food. As far as malaria, there were already resistant mosquitos and would have been more. We didn't start the ban and resisted it as long as we could.

The sad thing is if you use a much lower dose of the pesticide it is both efficacious and safe. But its day is done.

Also, look at the role of the Surgeon General, Rupert Blue, in the spread of the 1918 Flu pandemic. The federal Public Health Service did everything they could to prevent "panic" by suppressing information, refused to support antiseptic treatment and quarantine, and probably caused the death of more Americans that the Germans did in World War 1.

Possibly true a hundred years ago, before there was a unified public health service. These days they do far better. Or perhaps you'd like to return to the days when infants die routinely from diarrhea. Go to an old cemetery some time.

Agreed. We, as a society, have forgotten that actions and choices have consequences. In the name of "the environment" we eliminated pesticides that eliminated the threat of contagious disease, now they are returning. Malaria, cholera, West Nile, bedbugs, all did not exist in the past generation. Now they are coming back because we lack the will to act against them.

No, they have returned because society is now far more mobile. Pathogens can emerge and spread quickly. To be honest, none of the pestilences you've named have returned with even a fraction of their former strength, none are pandemic except bedbugs, which are an annoyance at best. Sorry, beats the heck out of the days when there was limited federal government and most kids died and most mothers died in childbirth.

In the name of "freedom of conscience", allow people not to vaccinate their kids, and measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and others are roaring back into the child population (and killing them).
We won't even talk about Tuberculosis, which is steadily advancing through the population.

As you say, though measles, mumps and the others are normal childhood diseases with low rates of disabling infections. Disadvantage to living in a free country.

The same is true in energy, transportation, and many many other areas. I could easily go on, but I don't have time.
As you say, the surest way to lose everything is to forget what we have (and fail to maintain the incredible advances we have made).

I dunno, we've never had a nuclear meltdown here, and we've had inexpensive petroleum brought from overseas for decades. We have a highway system that stretches from coast to coast and is mostly free for its users, and yes, a very safe ATC system.

That's not to say that the Fed doesn't routinely bollux stuff. But this "the government fraks up everything it does" rhetoric is just silly. No doubt you can find some sort of nit to pick with every program there is, but anyone can find a nit to pick with anything.
 
Actually, the US Supreme Court has not ruled on the legality of the current processes in place. So it is not factually correct to state that the TSA in operating Constitutionally according to Marbury.

Also the fines imposed thus far have typically been dropped, probably because as soon as there's real money in the water, the lawyer-sharks will be on that like a single drop of blood smelled miles away.
 
Also the fines imposed thus far have typically been dropped, probably because as soon as there's real money in the water, the lawyer-sharks will be on that like a single drop of blood smelled miles away.

Plus, without a fine, there's no "case or controversy" for a court to rule upon. And then nobody has standing to get the policies into court, where that court may well rule them illegal.
 
If the FAA really wanted to kill GA, it would be dead. GA's biggest enemy is the American people, who are too busy/self involved/insufficiently motivated/broke to play.

Trying to avoid the non-aviation topics here... but...

That "broke" part might not be true if those lucky enough to be earning money, weren't spending roughly 5 months out of every year of their lives paying JUST their Federal taxes... which doesn't count Sales taxes, Property Taxes, or any local taxes.

The Federal Government is the largest, most corrupt "Corporation" in the land.
 
> We've never been invaded.

Uh, incorrect. The Brits invaded DC in 1812 and burned the WH. The
Japanese invaded and occupied Attu & Kiska and built considerable
defenses. Hell, we even let them place a war memorial on Attu.

>> the US Supreme Court has not ruled on the legality of the current
>> processes in place.

That is something that DHS does *not* want to occur. I'm looking forward
to the day that SCOTUS gets their say on the current *process*.
 
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The Federalist Papers were written by some (3 IIRC) of the founders, by no means do they represent the intent of all the founders.

And the authors of the Federalist Papers didn't even agree on everything.
 
The Nips also left [the Aleutians] without a fight.

Although I agree with most of what you're saying, in the interest of accuracy, their exit from only one of the islands was without a fight. The other did involve fighting.
 
If you thought they could do such a thing faster cheaper better, you might try explaining why no one has duplicated the feat. Plenty of folks have had plenty of reason to try. It was really, really hard, and we did it anyway.

Nice, but you dodged my point. As I said, the Feds can do things well, for a short time (as long as cost is no object). Eventually, everything becomes a bureaucratic mess. Hence NASA's state for the last 30 years.

You got me on the War of 1812, the British did come in and burn down the Capital. The Nips might have blown Pearl to kingdom come, but they didn't invade it or anything else. The Aleutians are not and have never been part of the CONUS. The Nips also left without a fight. Wasn't aware the Philippines and Marianas were part of the US. Obviously, geography ain't my strong suit.

Alaska is part of the United States, the Japanese did not leave without a fight.
On 11 May 1943, the operation to recapture Attu began. Included with the invasion force was a group of scouts recruited from the Alaska Territory, known as Castner's Cutthroats. A shortage of landing craft, unsuitable beaches, and equipment that failed to operate in the appalling weather made it very difficult to bring any force to bear against the Japanese. Many soldiers suffered from frostbite because essential supplies could not be landed, or having been landed, could not be moved to where they were needed because vehicles would not work on the tundra. The Japanese defenders under Colonel Yasuyo Yamasaki did not contest the landings, but rather dug in on high ground away from the shore. This caused bloody fighting: there were 3,929 U.S. casualties: 580 were killed, 1,148 were injured, 1,200 had severe cold injuries, 614 succumbed to disease, and 318 died of miscellaneous causes, largely Japanese booby traps and friendly fire.

On 29 May, the last of the Japanese forces suddenly attacked near Massacre Bay in one of the largest banzai charges of the Pacific campaign. The charge, led by Colonel Yamasaki, penetrated U.S. lines far enough to encounter shocked rear-echelon units of the American force. After furious, brutal, often hand-to-hand combat, the Japanese force was killed almost to the last man: only 28 prisoners were taken, none of them an officer. U.S. burial teams counted 2,351 Japanese dead, but it was presumed that hundreds more had been buried by bombardments over the course of the battle.

Every advanced weapon system ever invented has gone through teething pains since the invention of the rock.

The rock didn't cost eleventy billion dollars. So you believe the procurement and development process at DoD is not horrifically wasteful?

The Panel on Defense Acquisition Reform, established by the House Armed Services Committee in March 2009, said in its report that DOD’s mishandling of acquisitions and procurement fails to fulfill the military’s current mission needs and contributes to massive cost overruns. The final report largely tracks an interim document released March 11.

“The panel found that while the nature of defense acquisition has substantially changed, the defense acquisition process has not kept pace,” the report stated. “As a result, the Department’s formal acquisition policy has limited application to the majority of [its] acquisitions.”

If the FAA really wanted to kill GA, it would be dead. GA's biggest enemy is the American people, who are too busy/self involved/insufficiently motivated/broke to play.

OK. So NextGen, user fees, and everything else the Feds are trying to do are just hunkey dorey.

Yeah, mandated vaccinations had nothing to do with it. All those folks would have gone out and bought their shots. Good try.

Vaccination is not a federal function. Vaccination is managed by local public health departments. The Feds provide almost no medical care to people.

Sabin's polio, the one everybody took.

Sabin didn't work for the Feds, the vaccine was developed at the University of Cincinnati.

By the way, the Fed funds, buys, and regulates most of the vaccines that go out every year. Without them there'd be none. They make little money for drug companies, and carry massive liability.

Yes, but the feds have put many years and a billion dollars of cost into developing and approving a new vaccine. They have destroyed the financial incentive, then have to subsidize the cost of production and liability.
Reagan said the motto of the federal government is "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."
That's exactly what we've done with the vaccine production process.


Possibly true a hundred years ago, before there was a unified public health service. These days they do far better. Or perhaps you'd like to return to the days when infants die routinely from diarrhea. Go to an old cemetery some time.
...
Sorry, beats the heck out of the days when there was limited federal government and most kids died and most mothers died in childbirth.

There is no unified public health service. Public health functions are provided by local and state governments. The feds have no role in public health for 99+% of US citizens.

If you want to see federal government "success", look at the population whose health services are directly provided by the federal government, for free, by the Indian Heath Service (part of the US Public Health Service).
The infant mortality rate is that of a third world country, almost double that of the US population at large.
The death rate for IHS patients is 35% higher than the US as a whole. Further, the years of potential life lost is 75% higher than the US as a whole.
In every metric, the IHS underperforms the US population as a whole.

As you say, though measles, mumps and the others are normal childhood diseases with low rates of disabling infections. Disadvantage to living in a free country.

That's not to say that the Fed doesn't routinely bollux stuff. But this "the government fraks up everything it does" rhetoric is just silly. No doubt you can find some sort of nit to pick with every program there is, but anyone can find a nit to pick with anything.

Show me proof of federal competence at anything, sustained over any significant period of time.
 
Show me proof of federal competence at anything, sustained over any significant period of time.

You've made your decision and are twisting facts to fit, obviating further discussion. One can find fault in absolutely anything if one desires.
 
Folks, if we're going to go down the road of politics or federal competence, this thread is headed into the Spin Zone.
 
You've made your decision and are twisting facts to fit, obviating further discussion. One can find fault in absolutely anything if one desires.

Which facts did he twist?

His point is that well-meaning things handed to the Federal Government typically get accomplished somewhat
effectively at the outset, but virtually always fail into higher costs and lower quality services over time. There's almost zero motivation to do better. We can't "fire" government as easily as a private service provider.

He put the challenge out there to name some service that has consistently gotten better and cheaper. You reply with a feint away from the direct question.

The promise is always "economy of scale" but it never works out that way, IMHO.

The reason being, once people are of the mindset that a particular service is something government *must* provide, the contractors have little reason to lower costs and often competition is non-existent or worse.

In later stages, one large contractor providing one "critical" service or product must be subsidized with other contracts to maintain their company growth even if they've completely mismanaged other aspects of their business.

They also get large enough and fat enough on government cash that they become "too big to fail".

The government becomes the teat that local businesses suckle at. They'd rather have big government for a customer than a fickle real customer who might not pay the bill.

There are a lot of banks, insurance companies, defense contractors, and countless other businesses that under regular business rules we all learned in school (which was mostly lies, by the way - no one got rich following business school MBA rules unless they're the rich person's accountant) should be dead and gone.

They're costing us billions if not trillions. And it grows. And grows.

People can't even comprehend the difference in magnitude of those two words in numerical values, let alone what it really equates to in hours of work lost to pay for it. Every time a politician votes to spend money, you lose some amount of your life's work.

Alan may have made up his mind, but so have you...? You didn't answer his question.

I lean toward Alan's take on it all, but I find the "you're in the minority" argument fairly weak.

Just because the majority wants "free" stuff, doesn't mean the majority has truly thought that decision through. Usually quite the opposite, throughout history.

I want a pony. I was raised to go earn a pony. Some people are raised to demand a pony from their government pimps.

I'm not sure the two sides will ever see eye to eye. Especially since the abuse the pimp lays on in private, is well-concealed in public. "Tax Refund" for example. Yay! I'm getting a refund - Nevermind the tens of thousands they took! It's a reeeefund! (People are truly sad and stupid that this trick works.)

It'd be fun in these debates to have some little virtual reality goggles that would let one see the exact dollar amount any particular individual paid in all taxes constantly updated above their heads as context for their argument for bigger or smaller government.

Warren Buffett knows that's the bottom line and thus spins up his PR machine saying he should pay more, for example. He's not fooling anybody.

Read the total Federal Tax paid line on your W2 this year. See if you could have done something amazing with that much money if you got to keep it.

I'm not an "abolish all taxes" guy. I just want a bigger say in how that money is spent than writing a letter to a Congressman who could care less about my opinion unless I donated enough to his/her campaign to matter.

The only way that happens is a rise in local government and a lessening of Federal government. Every vote counts at the local level.

Presidential Elections are a side-show. Until one of them grows a pair large enough to actually utilize the line-item veto on these enormous unreadable spending Bills, the President's not that important at all.
 
Which facts did he twist?

He said the Federal government could do nothing well. I pointed out several things it has indeed done well.

The moonshots are an excellent example. The goal was moon landing, and it was accomplished. It was a technical tour de force that has not been duplicated in close to half a century by anyone.

Now the game changes. It has to be faster or better, sustained, etc... It isn't enough to do one thing, everything has to be faster and better (and note that NASA has explored the solar system with robots at a fraction of the cost of the moon landings, but we obviously don't care about that...). So the question changes to make the facts fit the thesis. Done that way, correct the Federal government has never done anything well. Neither has anyone else. One can find fault with anything.

My apologies to the rest of the POA communty, I seem to be moving this toward the Spin Zone. A character flaw I will try and rectify.
 
He said the Federal government could do nothing well. I pointed out several things it has indeed done well.

Ahh I see the focus now. Thanks.

I think Alan's adding on a new requirement for "done well" that no one cared about in the days of Apollo...

That we don't bankrupt ourselves in the process of pursuing these excellent endeavors.

While we've certainly done them "well" from a standpoint of the thing being accomplished, since we're deeply financing such great endeavors these days -- and not paying our own way, which almost led to world economic meltdown -- I'd say we've learned something since then.

Or maybe we haven't. ;)
 
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