Radio Work --- AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!

V

VictorValencia

Pre-Flight
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
85
Location
Santa Clara, CA
Display Name
Display name:
VictorValencia
I am working on my Sport Pilot certificate and training out of Palo Alto, CA. I was a little hesitant to learn at such a busy airport but I was told that
if I can fly here I can fly just about anywhere similar.

Since my lessons are on the weekends I have to deal with
an insane amount of traffic in and out of the airport. At times
we have had to wait 10+ minutes just to get into the pattern.

Since I already have a good amount of glider time I know the
mechanics of piloting an aircraft. I've always been nervous about
the radio work though. When I get nervous I tend to talk too fast
and/or completely forget what the tower said and my instructor has
to make the call for me. I can do the basic stuff but when it gets
a bit more complicated such as re-sequence situations on approach
I completely freeze and have no idea what to say. Maybe I am
just thinking about it too much. I also wonder if there is so much
going on in the pattern that it's tough for a newbie (only 6 lessons)
to have a good sense of everything that is going on around me.
It takes enough of my concentration to watch for the 2 aircraft ahead
of me, watch my descent rate and watch my airspeed to think much
about what the tower is saying.

I was really thrown off today when we were on a left downwind as
#3 to land after 2 other aircraft on right downwinds when we
turned base too early and ended up facing #2 to land on his
base leg. The tower told us to turn back onto downwind, revoked our
landing clearance and said they would call our base. It was a bit confusing
but my instructor had already responded to the tower and turned us back onto downwind.
What shook me is that I had no idea any of this happened until a few seconds later.

To give my instructor credit, if you don't seen #1 on final/landing you can get a bit confused on who you are supposed to follow in.

In retrospect it might have been good to confirm with the tower
prior to turning base or asked the tower to call our base. In the
air though I never would have thought these ideas.

How can I improve my radio awareness and be able to focus on
what the tower is saying and repeat it back accurately?

Victor
 
It's gets easier. Just listen for your tail number at first and follow instructions. Later you'll have more brain cycles to follow everything that's going on.
 
I learned at an un-towered airport, so my radio work was a little weak at first, but it just takes time. I actually had the same feeling all over again when I started my Instrument training, all of that information at once seems incredibly overwhelming.

I'll sometimes use a Boogie Board to write down clearances when I'm at a towered field. I find the act of writing the information down helps me commit it to memory a bit better. This isn't appropriate for every phase of flight, but it's certainly a good idea to use all of the tools available to you to make things easier on yourself when possible.
 
VictorValencia said:
.....How can I improve my radio awareness and be able to focus on what the tower is saying and repeat it back accurately?

Victor
Click to expand...

Practice.

But also remember, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. So, communication last, fly the plane first. Sounds like the radio got in the way of your flying a safe pattern. You'll get better at the radio in time. I chose to fly out of a non-towered because I thought the local busy Class D radio would distract me. I'm glad I did it that way but you eventually get better at it.
 
A good phrase for you to keep in mind for a while is "student pilot say again". When you've told the tower you're a student pilot they will be more likely to slow things down for you. When you've had more experience on the radio you'll know what they're saying before they say it and you'll only be listening for the variable parts of the call.

I've flown in and out of KPAO once, and from that experience I agree that when you're comfortable with the radio there, you'll be very comfortable elsewhere. If you really want a workout, take regular bay tours :)
 
I've trained and flown in the NYC airspace for my entire time as a pilot and flown out if a class C airport so radio work is important around here! Important things to remember, the air traffic controller is a human being too and they understand if you miss something. Just ask them to repeat and they will. Just don't keep asking them to repeat because that gets annoying. Also, when just starting to learn radios I used to just parrot back everything I was told and try and say it using the controllers exact words. This made it harder. It is ok to make it sound more conversational and, although you don't want to get long winded on the radio, you can talk to them rather than pilot speak at them! For example, if told to "extend downwind, look for traffic on a 3 mile final, follow that traffic, report traffic in sight.". You can take a few seconds and think about what you are being told to do. Then respond with, "ok I'm extending my downwind and I'm looking for the traffic on final. I'll let you know when I see them." Every phrase has what you are going to do which is what ATC wants to know you are understanding and you are much more conversational! In over 3 years of flying around the bust skies of New York this style has never gotten me in trouble with any of the ATC folks!
 
EppyGA said:
Spend some time listening to LiveATC.net
Click to expand...

^What he said^
Your already devoting 100% of your concentration "learning" to fly the plane. Adding to that work load by having to simultaneously learn to communicate with atc can be overwhelming in the beginning.
By listing to atc communication 2-3 hours a day, you will get to the point where you realize its fairly repetitious and will become second nature. you'll also learn how to shorten up the call while still communicating all required information.
The best tip i could give you would be not to try and talk to fast until you've got it down. a controller would much rather you take your time and get the call right the first time rather than make him repeat it 3 times :rolleyes2:
 
First, pick a less busy time. PAO was a madhouse yesterday afternoon. It is most nice Saturdays.

Go earlier, or on Sunday, or especially during the week.

When there is traffic in both patterns and the GPS approach, it can get hard to spot. Remember the cityside pattern is 200 feet higher than the bayside pattern, and the students tend to fly very wide patterns.

You have an easier time at PAO than those at RHV or HWD, cause you have to be stupid-high in the pattern for Class C airspace to be an issue.

It will come with practice. But I think you should start out with the firehose turned on less than full blast.

NEVER turn base without spotting your traffic or asking tower to call it. If you get too far into Moffett, tower will instruct you to turn base.

Why sport pilot? It won't save you much over a private in such busy airspace, and most of the available rentals are four seaters. Basically, you just skip night flying and hood training, which is maybe 6 hours and rather fun. LSAs are not cheaper than 35 year old 172s.
 
Last edited:
VictorValencia said:
I am working on my Sport Pilot certificate and training out of Palo Alto, CA. I was a little hesitant to learn at such a busy airport but I was told that
if I can fly here I can fly just about anywhere similar.

Since my lessons are on the weekends I have to deal with
an insane amount of traffic in and out of the airport. At times
we have had to wait 10+ minutes just to get into the pattern.

Since I already have a good amount of glider time I know the
mechanics of piloting an aircraft. I've always been nervous about
the radio work though. When I get nervous I tend to talk too fast
and/or completely forget what the tower said and my instructor has
to make the call for me. I can do the basic stuff but when it gets
a bit more complicated such as re-sequence situations on approach
I completely freeze and have no idea what to say. Maybe I am
just thinking about it too much. I also wonder if there is so much
going on in the pattern that it's tough for a newbie (only 6 lessons)
to have a good sense of everything that is going on around me.
It takes enough of my concentration to watch for the 2 aircraft ahead
of me, watch my descent rate and watch my airspeed to think much
about what the tower is saying.

I was really thrown off today when we were on a left downwind as
#3 to land after 2 other aircraft on right downwinds when we
turned base too early and ended up facing #2 to land on his
base leg. The tower told us to turn back onto downwind, revoked our
landing clearance and said they would call our base. It was a bit confusing
but my instructor had already responded to the tower and turned us back onto downwind.
What shook me is that I had no idea any of this happened until a few seconds later.

To give my instructor credit, if you don't seen #1 on final/landing you can get a bit confused on who you are supposed to follow in.

In retrospect it might have been good to confirm with the tower
prior to turning base or asked the tower to call our base. In the
air though I never would have thought these ideas.

How can I improve my radio awareness and be able to focus on
what the tower is saying and repeat it back accurately?

Victor
Click to expand...

Hi Victor,

I also trained in light sport based at a busy airport too, John Wayne down in SoCal. It adds more to the costs, but you'll be happy you did it when it clicks.

I made a video of my first solo and added subtitles to the communications. It's got some student mistakes, but I got just about every pattern/runway complication you can get that day, so maybe it will help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihi3EavOQxA

Also, if you send me your email by private message, I can email you a cheat sheet I used to practice while driving around. Do it out loud. Recite both sides of the imaginary conversation so that you can more rapidly recognize what they're saying. It will come much easier with just a little practice. Over time, you'll learn that you don't have to repeat everything.

If you're #3, it's important you have both #1 and #2 in sight as you proceed. If you don't have both, don't make any turns.

If you think you have #2, but can't immediately find #1, don't hesitate to ask. "Tower, Light Sport XYZ, where's #1?" You can also advise them of your student status so that they're little more helpful - "Tower, Light Sport XYZ, student pilot, where's #1?". Way better than looking at #1, thinking he's #2, and then turning in front of the actual #2.

Have fun!
 
Last edited:
Learning where it's busy will help you in the long run, as you'll have a chance to experience more, different things. I learned at Phoenix Deer Valley. You're right, "the mechanics of piloting" are pretty simple, it's that 5 minutes in the pattern and landing/takeoffs that are tough. Just avoid the busiest times or days. Listen to the online ATC (also a free Android/iPad App). I used to go to the airport and set for an hour or so, listening with a handheld. 'Was as good as an hour in the air.
 
Last edited:
CT4ME said:
Learning where it's busy will help you in the long run, as you'll have a chance to experience more, different things. I learned at Phoenix Deer Valley. You're right, "the mechanics of piloting" are pretty simple, it's that 5 minutes in the pattern and landing/takeoffs that are tough. Just avoid the busiest times or days. Listen to the online ATC (also a free Android/iPad App). I used to go to the airport and set for an hour or so, listening with a handheld. 'Was as good as an hour in the air.
Click to expand...


Agreed....

You can go one better and call the tower and ask for a tower tour... Out here they will let you stand /sit and watch the whole thing happen... It is a great learning experience..
 
N801BH said:
Agreed....

You can go one better and call the tower and ask for a tower tour... Out here they will let you stand /sit and watch the whole thing happen... It is a great learning experience..
Click to expand...

PAO is very accommodating of tower tours. The first thing you'll figure out is why ground always wants right turns on K.

The tower is radar equipped (fed from Moffett) and does not handle IFR clearances (they relay to NorCal).

The outer tower gate code is the same as the one by the terminal. The inner one requires escort.
 
N801BH said:
Agreed....

You can go one better and call the tower and ask for a tower tour... Out here they will let you stand /sit and watch the whole thing happen... It is a great learning experience..
Click to expand...

By far the best answer on this thread. If you are based at PAO, and will do 90% of your flying there, it would be in your best interest to learn what the local controllers expect.

Welcome to POA!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I learned and qualified as a Sport Pilot at Denver Centennial (APA). It is a crazy busy class D. The controllers there are sometimes thought of as having little patience for people who don't get it and respond quickly on the radio. I don't think they are that bad but I know PPL's that hate to fly in there.

As for LiveATC.net. I think this is one of the most valuable tools you can use. For me it was more than just listening though. When I listen, and I do all the time still, I think about what I would say in response to each transmission. Sometimes this is simple pattern calls, and sometimes as you describe it includes 360's or other re-sequencing calls. Just thinking through what action I would take, and in turn what radio response I would make, really helps.

The other suggestion I would give is that once you get your SP cert and have the chance to get your class B/C endorsements, or if you get them before your check ride, fly in some class B/C airspace and use flight following. This more frequent interaction with ATC will really hone your skills. I have never flown in your airspace but it sure looks like it would present an awesome opportunity to get some great flight following experience.

Carl
 
Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice! Ben that audio recording
of ground control was insane. I am going to pick up a copy
of Squawk VFR and I will spend time listening to archives
on liveatc.net for busy days. I think it will get better when I am
more comfortable in the pattern.

Victor
 
MAKG1 said:
<snip>
Why sport pilot? It won't save you much over a private in such busy airspace, and most of the available rentals are four seaters. Basically, you just skip night flying and hood training, which is maybe 6 hours and rather fun. LSAs are not cheaper than 35 year old 172s.
Click to expand...

Hi Makg,

I am going down the sport pilot route since I would not qualify for
a class 3 medical.
 
Victor:

You can ask the folks here who know me - no one likes to talk more than I! Nonetheless, I was intimidated by the task of talking, and had more than a few key-up-and-freeze moments.

Several suggestions, besides those above (which are universally excellent):

1. Decide what you are going to say before you key up;
2. Say as few words as reasonably possible - you are not judged on grammar! Remember, if you are simply acknowledging an instruction, you can just respond with your tail number.
3. Speak slowly - it takes less time to say, clearly, what you want said, than to say it twice after having to repeat;
4. Practice listening, and practice what you'd say if it was you responding. Just be certain no one is watching you, because you'll feel silly. Or so I've been told...
 
If you plan to buy a portable, get it and sit watching traffic. Find some doing pattern work, and imagine that's you, so anything that anyone says to that pilot, pay extra attention, and work to understand what that one particular pilot is being told. Try to anticipate that pilot's calls at turns, say it out loud before he or she does, and respond to the tower as if you were in the cockpit.

Think of this as radio-sim time, and you'll be surprised how quickly it sings to you. After a few days, you're going to start noticing other pilots' sloppy or incorrect radio habits, so you won't share them.
 
If it helps at all, I am about 15 hours into my PPL. At this point when I just fly the pattern without working the radios, my patterns are perfect. If I add in the radios, I get brain freeze and seem to do something wrong, although usually minor.
 
drotto said:
If it helps at all, I am about 15 hours into my PPL. At this point when I just fly the pattern without working the radios, my patterns are perfect. If I add in the radios, I get brain freeze and seem to do something wrong, although usually minor.
Click to expand...

It's a bit unusual, but maybe ask your instructor to switch roles for a few circuits, so you only handle the radios. Then, perhaps, you can tell him what to do (like, "turn base," "put in 10 flaps," etc.) and he can either do it or correct you. This removes the mechanics of flying the plane from the equation.

Just an idea. Or perhaps go up with another pilot. This might be a place where PilotEdge or somesuch might help, as that's cheaper. Potentially less realistic, though.
 
MAKG1 said:
First,

Why sport pilot? It won't save you much over a private in such busy airspace, and most of the available rentals are four seaters. Basically, you just skip night flying and hood training, which is maybe 6 hours and rather fun. LSAs are not cheaper than 35 year old 172s.
Click to expand...
:stirpot:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top