Racial Redress in the Comtrol Tower - WSJ

[Tantalum]

What degree of action do you think private companies should be allowed to take to encourage under-represented groups to enter a workforce? Zero?

I think it is hard to force top down. Like someone else said above, it may create resentment. When you throw away 90% of group B applications in favor of group A that's going to have some collateral damage and leave some unhappy people in its wake

People should be judged based on the content of their character, and be hired or not for jobs based on their skills and qualifications. If a group is under-represented we have to look at what forces in society are creating that and resolve those issues at the core (like maybe we don't idolize the Kardashians and "twerking")

 

[Tantalum]

And this is not a female vs male mentality thing. Both China and India have WAY higher female ratios in engineering than the US does.

Unfortunately it's the values society places. My aunt back in Hungary is a successful physicist, and my sisters here in this country, but were born and raised abroad, are also extremely successful in medicine and law. In fact, more successful than the men in my family, including myself. My wife is also very successful with a masters and a doctorate. So I agree, I don't think it's necessarily a gender mentality, rather more about what society tells people they have to do

Even something lighthearted and innocuous like The Big Bang Theory sends a message that science is reserved for nerdy boys, and that cute girls don't pursue science, and that the girls who do pursue signs, generally are less attractive and more homely (look at Dr.Amy Farrah Fowler's character)

It is true that the hiring process is so far down the line that at that point is too little too late, there's very little change that can do. To fix the ratios and underrepresented classes in various fields we need to look deeper at the values we teach at home and in schools and in society overall

I do believe things are shifting though, I'm very optimistic when I look at my nieces and nephews. Oldest niece just started college and she's very eager about pursuing a career in chemistry. How awesome is that

 

[Tarheelpilot]

What I don’t understand is why hiring should match our population demographics at all.

 

[deonb]

What I don’t understand is why hiring should match our population demographics at all.

At a macro level - you can't be competitive at as a society these days if you only hire half your potential workers.

At a micro level - diversity makes you stronger. e.g. One example that I know off - engineering team goes and develops a general purpose electronic product. Dev signs off on it. Test signs off on it. Management signs off on it. Just before manufacturing starts they hire a new employee who happens to be female. Turns out you can't press the buttons on the product if you have long nails - throw out the design and restart. If there were a couple of women on the dev team they would have avoided the rework.

 

[Everskyward]

At a macro level - you can't be competitive at as a society these days if you only hire half your potential workers.

At a micro level - diversity makes you stronger. e.g. One example that I know off - engineering team goes and develops a general purpose electronic product. Dev signs off on it. Test signs off on it. Management signs off on it. Just before manufacturing starts they hire a new employee who happens to be female. Turns out you can't press the buttons on the product if you have long nails - throw out the design and restart. If there were a couple of women on the dev team they would have avoided the rework.

LOL, that’s pretty stereotypical. I’m a female who has never had or desired long nails. I wouldn’t have noticed it either.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

At a macro level - you can't be competitive at as a society these days if you only hire half your potential workers.

At a micro level - diversity makes you stronger. e.g. One example that I know off - engineering team goes and develops a general purpose electronic product. Dev signs off on it. Test signs off on it. Management signs off on it. Just before manufacturing starts they hire a new employee who happens to be female. Turns out you can't press the buttons on the product if you have long nails - throw out the design and restart. If there were a couple of women on the dev team they would have avoided the rework.

Ok. I agree in general, not necessarily the exact situation you propose, but that doesn’t apply to my question.

 

[Palmpilot]

I think it is hard to force top down. Like someone else said above, it may create resentment. When you throw away 90% of group B applications in favor of group A that's going to have some collateral damage and leave some unhappy people in its wake

OK, let's review the math here: The 90% of applications being thrown away were NOT due to the favoring of women applicants. He said that ten times as many men as women made it to the interview stage. Since all the women were making it to the interview stage and only 10% of the men, that means that only one percent of the applicants were women. Consequently, the number of male rejects that could possibly be due to the favoring of female applicants can't be larger than about one percent.

People should be judged based on the content of their character, and be hired or not for jobs based on their skills and qualifications. If a group is under-represented we have to look at what forces in society are creating that and resolve those issues at the core (like maybe we don't idolize the Kardashians and "twerking")

That would be great, but we don't live in an ideal society. I'm pretty sure that there are still people who are reluctant to hire women for some occupations based solely on their gender, and I'm 100% sure that that has been true in the past. If you're saying that groups that have been disadvantaged by discrimination should have ZERO help catching up, that just seems way too extreme to me.

There's an inertia to discrimination in hiring, due to the fact that experience is one of the criteria used in measuring qualifications. People who have been discriminated against in the past will as a consequence have less experience, be judged less qualified, and therefore have difficulty getting the experience they need to BECOME qualified. I don't think that complaining about people's taste in entertainment is going to solve this.

 

[Tantalum]

I'm pretty sure that there are still people who are reluctant to hire women for some occupations based solely on their gender

Fair points. And hopefully people who overtly judge and discriminate are in the shrinking minority

In general I don't think any discrimination is good, even if it's designed to right a prior, sometimes decades old wrong, it just doesn't seem fair to punish one current group for the crimes of some other past group (however small or good intentioned the new discrimination is, you're still judging someone by their gender, skin color, etc. ("We have to stop gender and racial discrimination! Why can't you privileged white males get that!"). Plus, like someone else said, you risk sowing the seeds of resentment in this new "innocent" group that's being discriminated against, simply because someone else who sort of looks like them decades ago did evil things

My $0.02

PS - there is still a lot of current entertainment that gently drives classic gender motifs. Big Bang Theory re-enforces the notion that science people are nerds who either can't talk to girls, or suffer from autism / aspergers, that cute girls are waitresses and nothing more, and women who do get involved in math and science are less attractive (Dr. Amy Farah Fowler). And I'm not sure that twerking and the Kardashians are the best role models.. that was my intent with the entertainment remark. Love how Westworld, Billions, Game of Thrones, etc., find naturally strong roles and gender representations in their shows

Anyway, happy flying!

PPS, as far as how to fix it.. put those extra resources and financial incentives to education, career fairs, etc. Make education affordable and accessible. Teach people at an early age that engineering, computer science, finance, etc., are not reserved for geeks, and any career is largely gender agnostic. Encourage people to pursue their dreams, even if it is in a field dominated by members of a different race or religion. No overnight fix, but a long term organic change has the best chances. imho

 

[denverpilot]

It’s interesting @deonb that your company has a hard time hiring women in tech.

I’ve been at three that hired way more than average, understanding that I’ve been at enough to have seen the average is fairly dismal.

How they did it, I don’t know. I wasn’t involved in hiring software devs at all three. I hire sysadmin, ops, telecom, and other specialties usually. Dev is not my thing.

We have a lady right now who I witnessed a laughable argument going on out back of the building the other day. Project Manager had taken young male and older but not 40 yet female devs out back to have a chat and see if he could cool them off.

Female was leaning against the back wall of the building in a clearly “not listening, don’t care at all” body language pose. Guy was whining that she had written half of his code for him and he didn’t have any pretty wireframes done yet to get the feel for the artistic side of his screens and modules. Sounded like his stuff was overdue so she got tired of waiting on him.

Also sounded like it meant that accidentally two different styles were used on 50% of the whole website. Not hard to fix in the era of CSS and what not. I suspect less than a day for him and an hour or two for her. Ha.

He was soooooooooo incredibly whiney. I was standing a ways away after taking a phone call outside, and eavesdropping and accidentally giggled at him. Poor guy.

The crusty Sysadmin with white hair was now laughing at him and he blurted out “It’s not funny!”

Anyway luckily for me, and not for them he wanted to whine more about the code so he ignored me as I made some hand wave gesture like “it’s not you” and acted like it was something on my phone. Ha.

I’ve honestly never heard anybody, let alone a male engineer whine so hard in my life. “I want to work as a teeeeeeam!” And “But now it doesn’t look the saaaaaame!”

Our female dev wasn’t reacting at all. Once in a while she’d say, “It works, doesn’t it?”

LOL. She wasn’t even annoyed. Just completely non phased by the guy and had done all of her work and half of his that day, before noon.

I’d take 100 more of her over the whining guy. But it’s not my department and the PM was standing there pretending to not take sides. I never asked him later if the children got over their spat. LOL.

One can only hope the young PM now knows to keep whining guy busy and away from his good coder. Not that he isn’t, but just it was clear she wanted to be left alone and anywhere but listening to him. Hahaha.

And to be clear. She’s not antisocial. I don’t have to talk to our Devs too often, but the cold stare she was giving the whiner wasn’t the usual interactions with her I’ve seen. Hahaha.

Clearly one of those folks I like to hire a few of in my teams. Give her a project, get everything and everyone out of her way, and let her code. Can’t have a team full of them, but they’re great for certain types of projects that regular coders would just curl up in a ball and stop on.

 

[deonb]

It’s interesting @deonb that your company has a hard time hiring women in tech.

I've always worked in groups/companies that use low level C/C++/assembly code as well as GLSL/HLSL. And we're situated in the middle of a tech hub surrounded by dozens of much wealthier companies... It's hard enough to hire men in that environment.

 

[Salty]

Nothing is more likely to generate MORE sexism or racism than putting unqualified women or minorities in positions where they will underperform.

 

[denverpilot]

I've always worked in groups/companies that use low level C/C++/assembly code as well as GLSL/HLSL. And we're situated in the middle of a tech hub surrounded by dozens of much wealthier companies... It's hard enough to hire men in that environment.

That makes some sense. The Telecom companies I’ve been at had a number of ladies who could write some serious C code, though. But they always had decent pay and telecom for whatever reason has always had a culture of completely top notch bennies. Best bennies of anyplace I’ve ever worked.

I wonder if that’s one of the reasons we had more females than average in tech roles there? Never thought to analyze it.

It was two engineers, one male, and the only female in the customer support department at one place that I have to credit partially for me even having a career. They fought to get four of us promoted from lower level positions to full engineers in the company because they couldn’t find anyone to hire at the time.

The female engineer supposedly hollered at the Director, “You can’t find anyone to do this, what’s the worst that happens, you have to fire them?!” Thanks Kate. Total kick ass lady.

 

[Morgan3820]

I am in a DOD engineering group and we promote based on race all of the time. Everyone knows it. Yes it breeds resentment. Yes, the standards are lowered. Don't tell me I am a bad person for not liking it.

My, top of her class, daughter gets zero financial aid for college, while the diverse kid that dribles a basketball gets a full ride. Tell her thats OK.

BS

 

[Palmpilot]

Is the race-related effect of sports scholarships explicitly determined by race, or is it just a consequence of the demographics of sports teams?

 

[kayoh190]

Is the race-related effect of sports scholarships explicitly determined by race, or is it just a consequence of the demographics of sports teams?

Big time college athletic departments are motivated entirely by money, which involves bringing in the best talent possible. I don't think they care at all about the color of the player, as long as they think he/she can help them win.

 

[Tantalum]

Big time college athletic departments are motivated entirely by money, which involves bringing in the best talent possible. I don't think they care at all about the color of the player, as long as they think he/she can help them win.

Frankly no one should care about the color of the "player", every employer, etc should bring in the best talent possible for the job

 

[MtnMarcus]

That sounds cute, but actual reality and hard statistics say that racism is alive and well.

Not sure where you live, what circles you run in or what your source is, but this is an asinine statement and something that sounds more like a liberal talking point than anything else. I travel the entire country on a weekly basis and interact with a multitude of individuals from various socioeconomic levels and the reality is is that mainstream America DOES NOT CARE about race, sexual preference, etc. The whiners and bedwetters would sure like us to believe otherwise though. And as far as "statistics" saying we are racist.....give e a break

 

[MtnMarcus]

I'm a pilot, a civil rights lawyer and have been around ATC for nearly 3 decades - as my uncle retired as a controller 2 years ago after 28 years.



And you are stastat something that simply isn't a reality.

Just read you are an attorney.....your comments now make perfect sense!!

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not sure where you live, what circles you run in or what your source is, but this is an asinine statement and something that sounds more like a liberal talking point than anything else. I travel the entire country on a weekly basis and interact with a multitude of individuals from various socioeconomic levels and the reality is is that mainstream America DOES NOT CARE about race, sexual preference, etc. The whiners and bedwetters would sure like us to believe otherwise though. And as far as "statistics" saying we are racist.....give e a break

Your statement might be true. But then those few racists sure manage to have a greater voice than their numbers would indicate.

 

[Morgan3820]

Big time college athletic departments are motivated entirely by money, which involves bringing in the best talent possible. I don't think they care at all about the color of the player, as long as they think he/she can help them win.

Thanks, I'll tell my Daughter, she will feel better about the whole thing.

 

[kayoh190]

Thanks, I'll tell my Daughter, she will feel better about the whole thing.

I don't understand...your daughter is free to pursue athletic scholarships just like everyone else.

 

[Morgan3820]

You understand, you are just trying to bait me.

 

[kayoh190]

You understand, you are just trying to bait me.

No, I don't. I'm sorry your daughter doesn't have access to financial aid, but I simply don't see how there's a connection to athletic scholarships. Especially in a thread that's about affirmative action.

Regardless, I'm not trying to bait you. I'm far from the argumentative type. I'll move on.

 

[SkyDog58]

Big time college athletic departments are motivated entirely by money, which involves bringing in the best talent possible. I don't think they care at all about the color of the player, as long as they think he/she can help them win.

And that is the way it should be in all segments of our society, not just athletics. Private sector employment, government jobs, academia, etc. all should hire the best qualified regardless of demographics.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Your statement might be true. But then those few racists sure manage to have a greater voice than their numbers would indicate.

That’s always the case regarding extremists. Unfortunately both parties have been over run by vocal minorities. People in the middle no longer have a voice.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

That’s always the case regarding extremists. Unfortunately both parties have been over run by vocal minorities. People in the middle no longer have a voice.

Partly due to the rules the parties put in place to maintain power. For example, there used to be a rule here that a third party needed an enormous number of signatures to be listed on a county ballot. That makes a barrier to entry so high that these people join the party.

 

[MtnMarcus]

Your statement might be true. But then those few racists sure manage to have a greater voice than their numbers would indicate.

Yep. Racism is big business....and business is good!

 

[Allahdin]

This whole thread is so inappropriate!

 

[Morgan3820]

This whole thread is so inappropriate!

Really, I am ok with it, brother. i am all for civil discussion even with people I may disagree with. I find it stimulating. Communication is the key to mutual understanding. But then I am comfortable with who I am. I Do not seek validation from others.

 

[Pilots Of America Management]

Closed pending MC review.

Edit: Reviewed. The thread will stay locked.