R22 vs Hughes-Schweizer H269C

Radar Contact

Radar Contact

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Little over 20 years ago I got about 40 hours in an R22 working towards my helicopter commercial add on. Got sidetracked and didn’t finish. Randomly thinking about finishing that up for fun the other day and see the closest helo school has a H269C.

For those in the know… @Velocity173 and others… thoughts about going this route to finish it up? Should I just find a place with R22/44’s instead?
 
My first question would be, do you have a specific goal in mind after you're finished up? The Robinson SFAR might be worth taking into consideration when choosing which direction to head.
 
mondtster said:
My first question would be, do you have a specific goal in mind after you're finished up? The Robinson SFAR might be worth taking into consideration when choosing which direction to head.
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Not really. Just knocking off bucket list aviation stuff. I’m a little rusty on the Robinson SFAR stuff. Given my already logged 40 hours wouldn’t it be an easy transition if I ever got a 44?
 
I’ve flown both a little. I much preferred the R22, but if the H269 was closer that’s probably what I’d fly. Would you travel further to train in a Cessna vs a Piper? Pretty much the same difference here.

Now if you could find a place offering training in a Bell 47 that was a little further away, that would be worth the extra drive.
 
Radar Contact said:
Not really. Just knocking off bucket list aviation stuff. I’m a little rusty on the Robinson SFAR stuff. Given my already logged 40 hours wouldn’t it be an easy transition if I ever got a 44?
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I was mainly thinking in terms of controlling costs. If you thought you were going to fly a Robinson after you earned the rating you'd need to complete the SFAR training including a flight review in type so you might as well start now.

Personally, I'd probably fly whichever type I had the easiest access to, had acceptable maintenance, and had an instructor that I thought was decent.
 
Radar Contact said:
Little over 20 years ago I got about 40 hours in an R22 working towards my helicopter commercial add on. Got sidetracked and didn’t finish. Randomly thinking about finishing that up for fun the other day and see the closest helo school has a H269C.

For those in the know… @Velocity173 and others… thoughts about going this route to finish it up? Should I just find a place with R22/44’s instead?
Click to expand...

Don’t ask me man. I’ve never even flown in a piston helo. Over 5,000 hrs, turbine only. :)

Buddy of mine runs a flight school in Jacksonville. He seems to really like his 300 over the Enstrom that he had. He’s not big on the R22 either. I’d just go with the closest myself. Have fun!
 
It was 35 years ago when I was in rotorcraft training. All my training was in R22s, but I had a chance to train a couple hours in the H269C when I was still a student pilot. The H269C was so much more stable and easier to fly compared to the squirrely R22. I felt like my flying skills improved 50% in the first 10 minutes of the H269C because it was not as sensitive as the R22. The flight school always said that if you learn to fly in an R22, you will be a smoother pilot in anything else.
 
If it was 20 years ago it's not really going to matter what you finish in I would think.
 
Radar Contact said:
Given my already logged 40 hours wouldn’t it be an easy transition if I ever got a 44?
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FYI: Just to throw out there on the support side. If you do go the 269 route and think you may want one of those instead of a R44 in the future, be sure to check with your intended mx shop on the current 269 support climate. A company in TX bought the TC for the 269 several years ago and have/had teething issues on the support side. Given the higher costs of the 269 most of my helicopter customers went R22/R44 or turbine after their rating. Most got their ratings in a Robbie due to mainly cost but several went the Enstrom, Schweizer, Bell route as well.
 
Bell206 said:
Given the higher costs of the 269 most of my helicopter customers went R22/R44 or turbine after their rating. Most got their ratings in a Robbie due to mainly cost but several went the Enstrom, Schweizer, Bell route as well.
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I know they have a reputation for pretty poor performance, but I love the looks of the Brantly B2.


brantlyb2b_johnallan.jpg
 
skier said:
I know they have a reputation for pretty poor performance, but I love the looks of the Brantly B2.
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Part of the performance reason was they old school 40s design and built like a brick sheethouse. Never worked on them except to help a guy with those goofy M/R blades on occasion which seemed to weigh a ton when remove/install them. Smooth flying on the few flights I went on though.
 
If ownership is in the cards you need to really think about parts, maintenance, and available A&Ps. Given the fact that the H269/300, bell 47, and now Enstrom are out of production or bankrupt (Enstrom), the best bet would be the Robinsons or the cabri g2 for a piston. An old jet ranger could also work but it’s a completely different tier of costs.

ownership aside, you should train in whatever you plan on flying the most. You need to develop a level of proficiency in any given type and I’d avoid jumping around between types. If you think you’ll want to fly an R44 I’d get the rating in that and stick with the R44. Plus compared to the R22 you’ll find the various maneuvers in the PTS to be much easier in the R44.
 
I have never flown either Robbie or Hughes, but an AI (and Hughes owner) once pointed out some safety features of the Hughes.

The Hughes has "G" attenuating seats and fuel tanks designed to burst the ends and spew the fuel away from the A/C in a high G vertical impact. Seen it with my own eyes. I was the last Air Crash Rescue boss at the Army Primary School at Mineral Wells until it was shut down. I recall a TH-55 wreck that happened in the downwind leg. A good auto but the solo stud was doing his first DW auto and it turned out bad. A/C was totaled. I mean really totaled. He thought that an engine tach gen failure really meant he had an engine failure and entered autorotation. All he had to do was stand up amid the wreckage. He walked (with directional guidance) to my Med evac helo. We flew him to the hospital where they only found a broken finger. On the downside, the Hughes could get into ground resonance if the oleos on the skid L.G. went bad. Articulated rotor system. Some CO leaks in the cockpit were found.

The Robbie teeter totter rotor system is way outdated and that's why a SFAR. Don't push over in a climb and go neg G. Airframe looks flimsy to me. Check out how the tail boom is attached to the fwd airframe.
 
Dude, That's me in that photo from the Hughes Pilot Center ad.
<----

I learned to fly helicopters in a TH-55, which is a H-269(A) and I loved every minute of it. It was like an extension of my body and I am still super comfortable in it. My most recent flight review was in a really nice 300C with a G600 panel in it and it was like being home. I have flown almost all of my single engine piston helicopter time in them and I am not a Robinson approved instructor. I have never flown an R22, but they are obviously a fine example of the tool to do the job of training rotorheads.

A friend of mine has one that he instructs in and leases back to an operator here in Texas. I have seriously though about buying a nice H-300 and doing the same. He informed me he was selling his and buying some land and didn't want to deal with the TBO coming up on his engine. I love flying and instructing in those little buggers and I want one bad....

If you have 40 hours logged and all the solo time, getting the commercial add-on is just a matter of practice to proficiency. You will have a blast!

Off I go to Trade-A-Plane to dream on.....
 
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Maxnr said:
I have never flown either Robbie or Hughes, but an AI (and Hughes owner) once pointed out some safety features of the Hughes.

The Hughes has "G" attenuating seats and fuel tanks designed to burst the ends and spew the fuel away from the A/C in a high G vertical impact. Seen it with my own eyes. I was the last Air Crash Rescue boss at the Army Primary School at Mineral Wells until it was shut down. I recall a TH-55 wreck that happened in the downwind leg. A good auto but the solo stud was doing his first DW auto and it turned out bad. A/C was totaled. I mean really totaled. He thought that an engine tach gen failure really meant he had an engine failure and entered autorotation. All he had to do was stand up amid the wreckage. He walked (with directional guidance) to my Med evac helo. We flew him to the hospital where they only found a broken finger. On the downside, the Hughes could get into ground resonance if the oleos on the skid L.G. went bad. Articulated rotor system. Some CO leaks in the cockpit were found.
Click to expand...

My dad went through there in the late 60's. He's got some stories about crashes and hard landings.
 
Radar Contact said:
Pocket is on fire!!
Step 1= Find retirement property down south.
Step 2= Knock out my aviation bucket list.
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Do you remember when you used to be cool? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Seriously, your priorities are only backwards if you plan on a short life. What else is on the bucket list other than helicopters?
 
iamtheari said:
What else is on the bucket list other than helicopters?
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Just gilder and seaplane really. Learning to hover/fly a helo was some of my favorite flying. Looking forward to seeing how bad I got after a two decade break.

IK04 said:
I know a place in Texas where the livin' is wonderful and there are plenty of helicopter CFIs!
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I do enjoy TX but the lady and I have it narrowed down to Southern Appalachia.
 
If there's even an inkling that you'll want your own R44 or R66 I'd try to do the training in an R44, or at least an R22. If it's just to get the rating with absolutely no possibility of ownership then the Hughes should be fine. I got my commercial add-on in an R44 a few years ago and it was a lot of fun. The R44 is also kinda twitchy, but it at least it has hydraulics and was rewarding to get the hang of. I haven't touched a helo since the checkride though. Insanely expensive and incredibly restrictive insurance requirements to rent.
 
If you are looking for a commercial Helicopter rating, I'll muddy the waters a bit.

Have you considered Gyrocopter followed by a helicopter?

150 hrs in Gyrocopters is a lot cheaper than helicopter time and the helicopter is a class add on once you have the gyro commercial. (edit: previous statement I made about gyro/helo hours was incorrect)

Other than that, the one that's cheapest, but if they are the same price the Schweizer, because you already have time logged in the R22, if you finish the rating and decide to by, 40+ hours in each type will give you a jump on insurance prices (and after 20 hours in R22s it doesn't really matter, SFAR 73).
 
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IK04 said:
Dude, That's me in that photo from the Hughes Pilot Center ad.
<----

I learned to fly helicopters in a TH-55, which is a H-269(A) and I loved every minute of it. It was like an extension of my body and I am still super comfortable in it. My most recent flight review was in a really nice 300C with a G600 panel in it and it was like being home. I have flown almost all of my single engine piston helicopter time in them and I am not a Robinson approved instructor. I have never flown an R22, but they are obviously a fine example of the tool to do the job of training rotorheads.

A friend of mine has one that he instructs in and leases back to an operator here in Texas. I have seriously though about buying a nice H-300 and doing the same. He informed me he was selling his and buying some land and didn't want to deal with the TBO coming up on his engine. I love flying and instructing in those little buggers and I want one bad....

If you have 40 hours logged and all the solo time, getting the commercial add-on is just a matter of practice to proficiency. You will have a blast!

Off I go to Trade-A-Plane to dream on.....
Click to expand...

You're lucky to have lived to tell the tale. ;) Amazing the difference in accident rates back then vs now. You’d never be able to ball up that many aircraft today. They’d have so many safety stand downs they’d have to shut the school house down. Of course, they were pushing a crapload more students through back then (Vietnam) so that has something to do with it.

http://www.armyaircrews.com/osage.html
 
269 would be my choice between the two. And especially my wife’s choice, and she spent 1000ish hours instructing in the things. :)
 
MarkH said:
If you are looking for a commercial Helicopter rating, I'll muddy the waters a bit.

Have you considered Gyrocopter followed by a helicopter?

150 hrs in Gyrocopters is a lot cheaper than helicopter time and the helicopter is a class add on once you have the gyro commercial. (edit: previous statement I made about gyro/helo hours was incorrect)

Other than that, the one that's cheapest, but if they are the same price the Schweizer, because you already have time logged in the R22, if you finish the rating and decide to by, 40+ hours in each type will give you a jump on insurance prices (and after 20 hours in R22s it doesn't really matter, SFAR 73).
Click to expand...

Yes ... and, 150 hours in helicopters (or gyros) is not strictly needed for a commercial helicopter rating ...

61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least -
(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and
(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.
 
Ted said:
269 would be my choice between the two. And especially my wife’s choice, and she spent 1000ish hours instructing in the things. :)
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Your wife is a badass. What has she NOT done?

JoeSelch said:
Yes ... and, 150 hours in helicopters (or gyros) is not strictly needed for a commercial helicopter rating ...

61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least -
(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and
(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.
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You were working on a helicopter rating, right? How that going?
 
Jim K said:
Your wife is a badass. What has she NOT done?
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Yes, she is a major badass. Fortunately, she hasn't decided to divorce me for my insanity. I hope to keep it that way. ;)

I was adding up and digitizing her logbook for her (Valentine's Day present). Pushing 8,000 hours, and more ratings than I can count.
 
Jim K said:
Your wife is a badass. What has she NOT done?

You were working on a helicopter rating, right? How that going?
Click to expand...

Good memory, Jim! Finished the private in October. Chipping away at the commercial - written is done, but taking my time on remaining flight hours (and avoiding all the BS that comes with cold-weather ops) - this is supposed to be fun! Will probably wrap that one this summer.

As for my wife ... :D
 
TE="Velocity173, post: 3220379, member: 12000"]You're lucky to have lived to tell the tale. ;) Amazing the difference in accident rates back then vs now. You’d never be able to ball up that many aircraft today.
http://www.armyaircrews.com/osage.html[/QUOTE]
OK, I'm drifting off topic. I may have said that I ran the Ft Wolters Air Crash Rescue section until the base closed in 73. My boss was the Hospital Commander and we owned four UH-1H helos. We manned two whenever the school was flying. Had several scrambles weekly, sometime several in a day. I recall the contractor would drag a damaged ship into the hangar and roll it out at dawn with the paint still tacky. The school was flying OH-23D Hillers and TH-55's. The Hillers were tough A/C and the joke was that they built dumpsters on the same assembly line.

The TH55s caused the school to change course a little. They couldn't do the same things as a Hiller. Running T.O.s and landings were out (for all) because the skid gear on the TH-55s had oleos and couldn't take it. A single case of exhaust CO poisoning happened in cold weather when the doors were installed & heater on. My guys then carried needles and syringes to draw a blood sample from accident TH-55 students. Somebody in the hospital woke up to the fact that CO has a half life about a day in the blood stream and the practice was stopped. The CO scare was over blown.

I recall that I was cleared for solo 180 autos in the Hiller when I was a student. In 72-73 nobody no longer did them because of some concern with the Hughes. When I was a student, mine was the first class with both the old OH-23s and the new TH-55s. All were forbidden to discuss the other A/C with class mates. After all, we were lab rats. Then a Texas blue norther came through in March and several TH-55s had main rotor, tailboom strikes on shut down.

Some of my fellow pilots were Navy trained at OLF Elyson. Its about 15 minutes from my house. They used the Navy version of the Bell 47 and had their share of prangs. They told me that back in the day they would haul the remains into one of the hangars. A certain pair of CPOs would arrive (with a case of brews) and lock the doors. They rolled out a finished product about sunrise. BTW Elyson was the place that one of my workmates told me that he taught Niel Armstrong to hover a 47. No autos. No slopes, just hover. Armstrong was with the Appolo program at the time. Why would an astronaut need to know how to hover a helicopter?
 
Maxnr said:
TE="Velocity173, post: 3220379, member: 12000"]You're lucky to have lived to tell the tale. ;) Amazing the difference in accident rates back then vs now. You’d never be able to ball up that many aircraft today.
http://www.armyaircrews.com/osage.html
Click to expand...
OK, I'm drifting off topic. I may have said that I ran the Ft Wolters Air Crash Rescue section until the base closed in 73. My boss was the Hospital Commander and we owned four UH-1H helos. We manned two whenever the school was flying. Had several scrambles weekly, sometime several in a day. I recall the contractor would drag a damaged ship into the hangar and roll it out at dawn with the paint still tacky. The school was flying OH-23D Hillers and TH-55's. The Hillers were tough A/C and the joke was that they built dumpsters on the same assembly line.

The TH55s caused the school to change course a little. They couldn't do the same things as a Hiller. Running T.O.s and landings were out (for all) because the skid gear on the TH-55s had oleos and couldn't take it. A single case of exhaust CO poisoning happened in cold weather when the doors were installed & heater on. My guys then carried needles and syringes to draw a blood sample from accident TH-55 students. Somebody in the hospital woke up to the fact that CO has a half life about a day in the blood stream and the practice was stopped. The CO scare was over blown.

I recall that I was cleared for solo 180 autos in the Hiller when I was a student. In 72-73 nobody no longer did them because of some concern with the Hughes. When I was a student, mine was the first class with both the old OH-23s and the new TH-55s. All were forbidden to discuss the other A/C with class mates. After all, we were lab rats. Then a Texas blue norther came through in March and several TH-55s had main rotor, tailboom strikes on shut down.

Some of my fellow pilots were Navy trained at OLF Elyson. Its about 15 minutes from my house. They used the Navy version of the Bell 47 and had their share of prangs. They told me that back in the day they would haul the remains into one of the hangars. A certain pair of CPOs would arrive (with a case of brews) and lock the doors. They rolled out a finished product about sunrise. BTW Elyson was the place that one of my workmates told me that he taught Niel Armstrong to hover a 47. No autos. No slopes, just hover. Armstrong was with the Appolo program at the time. Why would an astronaut need to know how to hover a helicopter?[/QUOTE]

Yeah I believe all the Apollo guys were qual’d in the 47. Funny story about Gene Cernan balling up one. Lucky to be alive.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...lmost-kept-gene-cernan-from-going-to-the-moon
 
Maxnr said:
The Hillers were tough A/C and the joke was that they built dumpsters on the same assembly line.
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As the son of a man who worked on that assembly line (technical inspector), it warms my heart to hear that!


Maxnr said:
Why would an astronaut need to know how to hover a helicopter?
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I'd say it paid off big time when he had to take over manual control of the Lunar Lander!
 
Velocity173 said:
You're lucky to have lived to tell the tale. ;) Amazing the difference in accident rates back then vs now. You’d never be able to ball up that many aircraft today. They’d have so many safety stand downs they’d have to shut the school house down. Of course, they were pushing a crapload more students through back then (Vietnam) so that has something to do with it.

http://www.armyaircrews.com/osage.html
Click to expand...

Wow! I didn't know there was a page for TH-55 losses.

That May 1984 crash happened the day before our graduation fly by and we were the first class to graduate without a fly by after they canceled it.
 
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