Question on Aeronautical Experience logging

Yeti Niner Five

Yeti Niner Five

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Yeti Niner Five
I'm putting my experience information into IACRA for my instrument checkride and have a question about solo hours.

Should I only log as solo the hours spent as the sole occupant during my primary training? After certification, should I have stopped counting that time as solo?

In other words, for the hours that I've flown as a certificated Private Pilot and as the only occupant in the plane, should I log that time as Solo, PIC or both?

I don't see any clear guidance in Part 61. The closest I've found it 61.51.b.5 and 61.51.d.
 
Solo is anytime you're the sole occupant of the aircraft, regardless of whether it's before or after your PP
 
You can log PIC without logging solo. It would be tougher to log Solo without logging PIC (Thinking about it.)
 
ja_user said:
You can log PIC without logging solo. It would be tougher to log Solo without logging PIC (Thinking about it.)
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At least after August 4, 1997 it would. Prior to that, student pilot solo time was not considered PIC, even though you were the only one on board. I guess God got to log it then.
 
In my logbook, I'll continue to log it as both. But my instructor believes that the IACRA application is a different animal and that I should only log my student time solo. I just don't want it to become an issue the morning of the checkride.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
In my logbook, I'll continue to log it as both. But my instructor believes that the IACRA application is a different animal and that I should only log my student time solo. I just don't want it to become an issue the morning of the checkride.
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If you have the requirements met solely with your student pilot solo time, I would just input that amount. Anything over the requirements doesn't really matter, IMO.

FWIW, the commercial requirements specify a long solo cross country. Seeing as how one generally has a PPL and most often times an instrument rating, I would count solo time as any time you're the sole occupant of the aircraft even if you hold a rating.
 
Turningfinal said:
If you have the requirements met solely with your student pilot solo time, I would just input that amount. Anything over the requirements doesn't really matter, IMO.

FWIW, the commercial requirements specify a long solo cross country. Seeing as how one generally has a PPL and most often times an instrument rating, I would count solo time as any time you're the sole occupant of the aircraft even if you hold a rating.
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That commercial long cross country can now include an instructor, as long as you perform all of the duties of PIC. See 61.129(a)(4) and 61.129(a)(4)(i). http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...ctLookup/61.129!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-3
 
jordane93 said:
I did my commercial x country solo. Why would I want to pay my instructor something that I could easily do on my own. Plus I saved a TON of money.
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I did mine solo as well. But it's an option to have an instructor on board, if you want. For instance, my instructor is my Dad. It would've been great to take the flight with him (especially at his discounted rate of a Diet Coke and lunch), but our schedules didn't work out. Instead, it was a long boring solo trip. (Boring is OK in this case... much preferred to hair-raising excitement.)

What I don't understand is why you could have an instructor on board as long as you perform the PIC duties... but you can't have a non-pilot passenger.
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
In my logbook, I'll continue to log it as both. But my instructor believes that the IACRA application is a different animal and that I should only log my student time solo. I just don't want it to become an issue the morning of the checkride.
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I realize it's just one data point, but I log all solo time as solo and PIC. Before or after my PPL hasn't changed that. And there weren't any issues with my 8710 at my instrument checkride.
 
mjburian said:
What I don't understand is why you could have an instructor on board as long as you perform the PIC duties... but you can't have a non-pilot passenger.
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Exactly. I never understood it either. The one con about doing it solo was it was a long and boring flight. Although I did have some conversations with approach controllers.
 
Except for the times (private or commercial flight tests) where solo is mandate, the FAA doesn't really care if you declare solo time. For your instrument rating, not counting post-private solo time isn't going to matter to them.

The rules that changed to allow a "CFI dummy" for the commercial was added purely because it was found that it was often impractical for people to get solo time (especially in twins) because nobody would rent a plane like that. The CFI dummy is a special exception to the solo rules that is NOT extended to other right seat ballast.
 
mjburian said:
I did mine solo as well. But it's an option to have an instructor on board, if you want. For instance, my instructor is my Dad. It would've been great to take the flight with him (especially at his discounted rate of a Diet Coke and lunch), but our schedules didn't work out. Instead, it was a long boring solo trip. (Boring is OK in this case... much preferred to hair-raising excitement.)

What I don't understand is why you could have an instructor on board as long as you perform the PIC duties... but you can't have a non-pilot passenger.
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As Flying Ron says, it is an insurance thing. The insurance carriers for some large training facilities would not cover solo flights by pilots who did not meet their experience requirements, so the feds tweaked the regs to allow a ride-along CFI. As an instructor, it would drive me nuts. Thank heavens that trainer aircraft do not have cockpit voice recorders to pick up the CFI commenting on something the pilot was doing (or failing to do). Oh, the horror!!

Bob Gardner
 
Yeti Niner Five said:
In my logbook, I'll continue to log it as both. But my instructor believes that the IACRA application is a different animal and that I should only log my student time solo.
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Ask your instructor to show you that in the regulations. Then ask your instructor how you're going to meet the solo requirements for Commercial without logging any more solo time.
I just don't want it to become an issue the morning of the checkride.
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Especially your CP ride down the road -- with no solo time since PP, that would be a problem.
 
mjburian said:
I did mine solo as well. But it's an option to have an instructor on board, if you want. For instance, my instructor is my Dad. It would've been great to take the flight with him (especially at his discounted rate of a Diet Coke and lunch), but our schedules didn't work out. Instead, it was a long boring solo trip. (Boring is OK in this case... much preferred to hair-raising excitement.)

What I don't understand is why you could have an instructor on board as long as you perform the PIC duties... but you can't have a non-pilot passenger.
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Because the passenger could be another PP (fellow student) or your Dad who knows the route and directs you thru it, depriving you of the "solo" experience that the instructor hopefully provides.
 
nosehair said:
Because the passenger could be another PP (fellow student) or your Dad who knows the route and directs you thru it, depriving you of the "solo" experience that the instructor hopefully provides.
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I guess I understand not having another (non-instructor) pilot on board, since that could help you along the way. But a non-pilot passenger (as stated) would seemingly only make the flight (marginally) more difficult, since they'd serve as a (minor) distraction.

Also, see above where my Dad is my instructor... so I don't think that part of your statement holds up here.
 
mjburian said:
I guess I understand not having another (non-instructor) pilot on board, since that could help you along the way. But a non-pilot passenger (as stated) would seemingly only make the flight (marginally) more difficult, since they'd serve as a (minor) distraction.

Also, see above where my Dad is my instructor... so I don't think that part of your statement holds up here.
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Yeah, I agree with your sentiment, and all of my long flights are with passengers (and I'm trying to slowly tick all of the commercial boxes) so I feel your pain.

But I think it would be impossible for the FAA to lay out all of the ways that a passenger couldn't help. What if it's your SO who's good with radio work? What if it's a local who can say "oh, the airport is just around that hill"? What if, what if, what if. Can you imagine the "but my passenger's medical was expired, so they COULDN'T have been helping me as a pilot" discussions that would flood PoA if that were the rule? What if they were a military or foreign pilot who never got the FAA card? Easier to just restrict it to a CFI who knows the rules and knows they need to do nothing except sit there for insurance reasons.
 
mjburian said:
I guess I understand not having another (non-instructor) pilot on board, since that could help you along the way. But a non-pilot passenger (as stated) would seemingly only make the flight (marginally) more difficult, since they'd serve as a (minor) distraction.
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I think the FAA just wanted to avoid quibbling over whether or not the other person was or was not a help, and saying it has to be solo accomplishes that goal. The allowance for an instructor to be aboard was made due to some problems with insurers allowing folks with limited retractable gear or ME time take a complex plane or twin on a cross-country solo, but the instructor is expected to sit on his/her hands and do nothing unless the trainee is about to land gear up or something like that. Since they trust instructors enough to let them release people into the sky without any other review, I guess they trust the instructor who signs the log for that "simulated solo" flight as being done effectively "alone and without a leader", as Horace Rumpole might put it.
 
JeffDG said:
Solo is anytime you're the sole occupant of the aircraft, regardless of whether it's before or after your PP
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That.

AND as long as you have the minimum anything over is just icing on the cake for IACRA and your DPE.
 
JeffDG said:
Solo is anytime you're the sole occupant of the aircraft, regardless of whether it's before or after your PP
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While the regs only say "sole occupant", the FAA takes it to mean "sole living human occupant" -- pets and corpses don't count against "solo" time. Oh, and babies count against solo post partum, but I'm not sure how a female pilot would log it if she gave birth on a flight which started out solo -- half solo, all PIC?
 
Ron Levy said:
While the regs only say "sole occupant", the FAA takes it to mean "sole living human occupant" -- pets and corpses don't count against "solo" time. Oh, and babies count against solo post partum, but I'm not sure how a female pilot would log it if she gave birth on a flight which started out solo -- half solo, all PIC?
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And what if said female pilot is only a student pilot? Would then be illegal for half the flight.:yikes:
 
JeffDG said:
And what if said female pilot is only a student pilot? Would then be illegal for half the flight.:yikes:
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Hmmm...how 'bout the emergency exception, and I don't think that anyone could argue that inflight childbirth while solo would not be an emergency. :dunno:
 
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