Question for the folks who fly where the Wind Comes Sweeping Down the Plains

Chris Mixon

Chris Mixon

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Chris Mixon
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I live in the deep south, near the Gulf, so big winds are not a regular thing. Thursday, I took a flight up to Clairmoore, OK,(KGCM) to help some friends look at a plane and ran into what were, for me, big crosswinds. Clairmoore has one runway: 18/36, and the folks there at the airport tell me that this works most of the year.

When we got there, the winds were from 260 at 20kts, gusting 30, which gave us a 90-degree x-wind component. We discussed it en route and decided to give it a try. We discussed the approach at length and decided that if I could not track the centerline at the 500-foot mark and remain stable, we would just abandon the approach and head over to Tulsa, which has a runway 26, and just get a rental car.

It turned out to be no big deal. Crabbed about 25 degrees into the wind, almost all the way to the ground, and then got the right wheel on first, no problem. Just had to carry a little more speed since Commanders are known to run out of rudder as they slow down, and kept the flaps at 10 degrees.

So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
 
I prefer a slip to a crab…(for clarity tailwheel, I can handle a slightly mucked up one wheel landing much easier than still drifting a bit in a crab if the timing or rudder authority let me down at the last minute).
 
You'll notice that probably 95% of the paved runways here in OK are 17/35 or 18/36 or 1/19. There's a reason for that, the wind is predominantly out of the north or south. Sometimes pretty strongly too (my typical solo endorsement when I was doing primary training allowed for 15G22 for a student solo). And yes, 20 or so knots of wind is just another day.

At least here in the middle of the state, the wind doesn't blow out of the E or W too often. But when it does blow from the west, it's often pretty strong. To the point where it may exceed crosswind limits or force diversions. When it blows from the east, it is usually not very strong but often brings stratus clouds and rain.

It's an interesting weather environment and place to fly, to be sure.
 
Chris Mixon said:
I live in the deep south, near the Gulf, so big winds are not a regular thing. Thursday, I took a flight up to Clairmoore, OK,(KGCM) to help some friends look at a plane and ran into what were, for me, big crosswinds. Clairmoore has one runway: 18/36, and the folks there at the airport tell me that this works most of the year.

When we got there, the winds were from 260 at 20kts, gusting 30, which gave us a 90-degree x-wind component. We discussed it en route and decided to give it a try. We discussed the approach at length and decided that if I could not track the centerline at the 500-foot mark and remain stable, we would just abandon the approach and head over to Tulsa, which has a runway 26, and just get a rental car.

It turned out to be no big deal. Crabbed about 25 degrees into the wind, almost all the way to the ground, and then got the right wheel on first, no problem. Just had to carry a little more speed since Commanders are known to run out of rudder as they slow down, and kept the flaps at 10 degrees.

So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
Click to expand...
I probably would not attempt a 20G30 crosswind landing just for funsies, but if I did, I'd for sure be skipping down final. If I can't hold the centerline, I want to know that long before I'm in the flare.

For comparison, I was flying the glider today with pre-solo students in an 11kt crosswind. They were able to handle it. But the club has a 13kt crosswind limit.
 
Chris Mixon said:
I live in the deep south, near the Gulf, so big winds are not a regular thing. Thursday, I took a flight up to Clairmoore, OK,(KGCM) to help some friends look at a plane and ran into what were, for me, big crosswinds. Clairmoore has one runway: 18/36, and the folks there at the airport tell me that this works most of the year.

When we got there, the winds were from 260 at 20kts, gusting 30, which gave us a 90-degree x-wind component. We discussed it en route and decided to give it a try. We discussed the approach at length and decided that if I could not track the centerline at the 500-foot mark and remain stable, we would just abandon the approach and head over to Tulsa, which has a runway 26, and just get a rental car.

It turned out to be no big deal. Crabbed about 25 degrees into the wind, almost all the way to the ground, and then got the right wheel on first, no problem. Just had to carry a little more speed since Commanders are known to run out of rudder as they slow down, and kept the flaps at 10 degrees.

So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
Click to expand...
If you were relying on the AWOS-3 for GCM, the station was located 8 miles SE at H71. Generally Commanders have a 19 kt demonstrated x wind component, which is rather good for a single engine airplane.
 
Lindberg said:
I probably would not attempt a 20G30 crosswind landing just for funsies,
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The more you practice, the better you get, keeping in mind the consequences of screwing it up are pretty severe, especially when you’re exceeding demonstrated components. But going out and increasing crosswind experience and proficiency to some level should be done for funsies.
 
If it's a good weather day (aside from winds) and I have plenty of gas to make it to a more favorable location, I'd give that a whirl without sweating about it.
I don't think I've ever planned enroute with the kind of objective criteria you're talking about (e.g., maintaining centerline at 500'). Personally, I'd just try to land and if didn't feel right at some point, I'd go around and/or divert.

And yeah, even being tolerant of winds... I'm usually not going to take a recreational joyride if 20G30 direct XW is my only landing option :).
 
MauleSkinner said:
The more you practice, the better you get, keeping in mind the consequences of screwing it up are pretty severe, especially when you’re exceeding demonstrated components. But going out and increasing crosswind experience and proficiency to some level should be done for funsies.
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I'm fairly confident I could do it in a capable aircraft. It just wouldn't be fun. And I only fly for fun.
 
When I was in my primary training it was 15/23 with 40 degrees or more of crosswind component to call it. There were many lessons (booked months ahead of time, he was Good, and hard to get time with, that we still went up) exceeding these conditions. (In a 1940’s Aeronca champ). I’m not too proud to admit that more than once I felt the “what the heck did we even take off for” feeling, but to be fair I also had told him early in my training that “if I didn’t feel uncomfortable than I’m am not learning/improving my skills to be able to deal with bad situations, he was my saftey pilot, to keep me from accidentally killing myself. So far (knock on wood) his teaching has worked…
 
You have to use all the advantages that you can.

Arrival earlier or later so not arriving at mid day.
Aircraft near gross with a forward CG.
Use both the mid field and approach end wind socks not the AWOS.
Use terrain or obstructions like tree lines parallel to a touch down spot on the runway.
A close pattern with a higher approach.
Touch down on the downwind side of runway.
Don’t drive the plane unto the runway.
Differential braking if required.
 
Once it gets to 40kts here, most are canceling regardless of direction b/c that’s when it’s strong enough to make it 3/4sm BLDU. (It seems to pick up the particulates off the ground at that speed)
Below 40kts, it depends on the aircraft (I find high wings suck in gusts & xwinds….but it might be my technique) and of course, it also depends on the xwind component.
One thing I have consistently noticed in those xwind landings is once in the flare, the wind almost always is less than on approach.
 
Chris Mixon said:
So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
Click to expand...
As others have said, I fly for fun. 20G30 xwinds can be fun if you have a plane that’s able. But usually that xwind is above my mins. I’ve done it, I’m not scared of it but I respect it. Some times of the year, like March, winds pick up strongly, and begin the seasonal shift from north to south, so our typical N/S rwy configurations sometimes just don’t work. It’s always good to have an option. I did a lot if my instrument training in those March gusty conditions, those were some tough approaches.
 
Chris Mixon said:
I live in the deep south, near the Gulf, so big winds are not a regular thing. Thursday, I took a flight up to Clairmoore, OK,(KGCM) to help some friends look at a plane and ran into what were, for me, big crosswinds. Clairmoore has one runway: 18/36, and the folks there at the airport tell me that this works most of the year.

When we got there, the winds were from 260 at 20kts, gusting 30, which gave us a 90-degree x-wind component. We discussed it en route and decided to give it a try. We discussed the approach at length and decided that if I could not track the centerline at the 500-foot mark and remain stable, we would just abandon the approach and head over to Tulsa, which has a runway 26, and just get a rental car.

It turned out to be no big deal. Crabbed about 25 degrees into the wind, almost all the way to the ground, and then got the right wheel on first, no problem. Just had to carry a little more speed since Commanders are known to run out of rudder as they slow down, and kept the flaps at 10 degrees.

So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
Click to expand...
I flew out of Kansas for a few years. Winds out of the north or winds out of the south. Anything other than that was a transition that would go away in an hour or two at worst, as it switched from one to the other. 20G30 was what we called "Tuesday". Pretty normal, but normally within 30 degrees of north or south. Thankfully, I fly a Socata Tampico with a gigantic rudder and a demonstrated crosswind component of 25 knots.

On another note, before my son started his flight lessons, I unofficially was teaching him to fly. December through May timeframe. We are back in the South now, and since I was used to the winds, we flew in a lot of strong winds and gusty weather. He got used to doing takeoffs & landings in conditions as you see in Kansas, like the winds that we get in the winter & spring. When he started flying with a flight school, they kept shying away from crosswinds, thinking he would be overwhelmed by them. He was not. He actually had trouble in smooth air because he had really never landed in it before.
 
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Whether that kind of wind is a concern or not depends on what I am flying. I’d be a bit concerned in my cub. In something bigger and heavier I wouldn’t worry as much.
 
Flatiowa said:
I prefer a slip to a crab…(for clarity tailwheel, I can handle a slightly mucked up one wheel landing much easier than still drifting a bit in a crab if the timing or rudder authority let me down at the last minute).
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When I did my first tailwheel checkout... long before endorsements were required... the instructor commented "If you can't hold centerline on a wing low approach out here on final, how do you know you'll have enough rudder authority when you get to the ground." Flying the C-onefiveoh, I always did the crab to drop a wing approach. Not such a good idea in J-3s or L-19s.
 
Chris Mixon said:
So here's the question for those of y'all that fly in these kinds of winds. Would this be a cause for concern while briefing your approach, or is it just Thursday for y'all?
Click to expand...

As the DPE told me on my multi commercial check ride, "What ya checking weather for, you're going anyway..." :lol: :lol:

After flying in New Mexico and Alaska winds, I was that weird person that liked strong crosswinds, so for pre-flight planning I would usually just casually glance at winds. Mostly direction.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
One thing I have consistently noticed in those xwind landings is once in the flare, the wind almost always is less than on approach.
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Yes, especially in a low wing light plane. The wind 5 feet or less above the runway can be significantly lower than what's blowing above that on final.

In the Mooney (YMMV) landing in high gusty strong crosswinds, I prefer crabbing (coordinated) down final with 1/2 flaps (higher nose position) and position the plane low over the fence, then drag it in with power.

During the flare transition into a slip, upwind wing low, and determine if there's enough rudder available to hold the centerline. If drift cannot be arrested because you're out of rudder, go around.

If the centerline can be held and you're only a couple of feet (or less) above the runway, don't wait... briskly reduce power (only remove when the nose is positioned above level and headed higher), and plant it. Upon touchdown full aileron into the wind, flaps up (in a Mooney), and work the feet to stay on centerline.

The above technique works (in the Mooney) in crosswinds up to high gusts in the mid to upper 30 kt range. Also, due to using some power, there's more rudder available to hold the centerline when the wind is from the left, rather than the right side.

I don't like, or recommend flying and landing a Mooney in these type of winds unless you're stuck. It's wrestling, and not fun. And risky. But so far in a pinch, the above method has worked.
 
My area gets very windy ... my max was 33G39 in the Tiger (which handled it). Approach and if things look good land ... otherwise go around or find somewhere else. The RV7A I now fly has the same tail as the Tiger, but can't handle near the crosswind ... my max in the RV7A was about 22G26 (both direct).

Landed KCNM Carlsbad once in 50 knot straight down the runway, steady with no dust .. that was awesome, shortest landing EVER!

Also had one at the home field in the Tiger that was 30G35 according to AWOS on short approach, but on short final had a HUGE windshear causing a large altitude loss ... bugged out to Las Cruces (KLRU) where winds hadn't arrived yet. Updated AWOS on crosswind indicated wind had changed to 45G55 ...
 
Maybe not useful in a commander, but for many other planes, it's worth remembering that if you're in a jam taxiways are an option. Clairmoore has three 800ft taxiways that, if you've otherwise exhausted the deck, could be your get out of jail free card. 800ft with a 20kt headwind is plenty for the vast majority of piston singles. Just remember that you're not done flying until you're tied down on a 20G30 day.
 
172andyou said:
Just remember that you're not done flying until you're tied down on a 20G30 day.
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Back in the 80's I had a student, who I considered an ex-student, rent one of the airport's PA-11's on a windy day. I had not seen him in months, and his solo endorsement was expired by several weeks. I was told he did well on the landing but kept the stick full back on the taxi back. The wind flipped the plane over on its back.
 
I can takeoff and land in stronger winds than I am comfortable opening the hangar door in. I’ve had to sit in the plane and “fly” it at the tiedown until the wind died down before I could safely get out. Those experiences are not fun enough to seek out, so that is generally the limit of my flying. No specific numbers, as “this feels stupid” can vary from day to day.
 
I did my last required cross country flight to a towered airport 2 weeks ago.
By the time I got back the wind had really picked up. My flight instructor had signed me off and had to leave town for the day.
Usually, we have a good sit down debrief after flight. A few days later I was back down to visit with him.
I asked if he was concerned about the stiff cross wind on my return.
His reply .... " I don't worry about my students who have trained at this airport, there is always a cross wind."
Got good training on heading drift. This part of the state is laid out in grids of county roads all E&W,N&S.
Compass heading were 15 to 20 degrees off from a still wind day.
The Days the wind is straight down the runways makes for short take offs and landings. :)
 
During training I had many days cancelled due to winds being terrible. You just have to know your own personal limits and not get hung up on pushing on a bad day and cancelling when it’s over your limit. The real issue is the gusting days as 15-20 gusts are not uncommon. I’ve had a week or two at a time where my schedule and the winds wouldn’t cooperate.
 
Being the weather junkie I am, I like to know ahead of time what to expect. Yes I realize, the actual still may vary a fair bit. One needs to be more careful going to that single runway airport. Years ago I was flying back from AZ, over a large area the surface winds were from the North above 30 knots. For this return I chose fuel stops with 340-020 degree runways, fuel price slid down the list.

As posted above, I’d rather a longer runway with the stronger, gusty crosswind. As is often the case, recency of a fair amount of flying can be a factor. It may not be the best conditions to work off the rust.

I remember an accident from 10+ years ago, crosswind gusting to 50+. The Mooney basically was blown off the runway on takeoff. As is often the case, things are rather clear in hindsight.
 
A couple days ago west winds were 70 gusting to 100 mph of the east slopes of
Rockies .Browning Mt. can be a fun area to fly.
 
Southpaw said:
A couple days ago west winds were 70 gusting to 100 mph of the east slopes of
Rockies .Browning Mt. can be a fun area to fly.
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I could travel in reverse at those speeds!
 
Well, angling into the wind can gain you about 10 degrees with wind direction. That would help, but maybe not enough.
 
sourdough44 said:
Well, angling into the wind can gain you about 10 degrees with wind direction. That would help, but maybe not enough.
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True. However that 10 degrees doesn't include any lowered ground speed (which can be significant) at touchdown resulting from whatever headwind component is available. Once firmly planted onto the runway and the groundspeed is slowing, a gentle 10 degree turn downwind may be possible to align the track with the runway heading. The wider the runway, the better.

Big winds are seldomly from and remain at 90 degrees to the runway, and do swing around within a quadrant (pick the correct quadrant) once the aircraft is close to the ground. After the winds encounter obstacles (hills, trees, hangars, etc) it's not likely to be a direct crosswind, but something less.

My primary instructor said, "wind is like water. As a river narrows into rapids, the faster the water is moving, and the more rocks it hits, the wildier it gets".
 
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