Question for CFI types on Flight Review

[DFH65]

Just want to make sure I understand this...So say you have been flying with an instructor in an effort to get current after many years off. Do you have to fly an official "flight review" or at some point after several hours of flying with you and covering the ground portion can he just say good enough and sign your log book? The way I read it is at least an hour and it doesn't seem to have any time frame associated with when the flying occurs and when he signs off assuming there isn't some long time in-between.

For example a person who flew two weeks ago and the instructor is good with the progress they have made then meets with the instructor now two weeks later to cover ground work and gets signed off would that be legit?

 

[Brad Z]

A flight review doesn't need to be all on the same day.

Here is the FAA's guidance to CFIs on conducting flight reviews...

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf

 

[ClimbnSink]

That is fine as long as the hour ground and air are logged and the endorsement given. Doesn't have to be a separate flight, FRs are not supposed to be a pseudo checkride.

 

[ja_user]

Does not have to be done on the same day, in one flight, or anything else. Frequently a person will take a few flights if they have not flown in a while. Although ground typically happens before the last flight, that isn't required either..

 

[BillTIZ]

Just remember, as a rated pilot you can not even fly solo without a current flight review endorsement.

Any "ground school" must be logged as meeting flight review requirements and total at least one hour. As many flights as it takes, but at least one hour logged to meet flight review requirements.

 

[poadeleted20]

Any "ground school" must be logged...

This is a requirement which my review of dozens of pilot logbooks every year suggests is honored more often in the breach than in the observance. I've seen people with flight review endorsements in their logbook but not one second of ground training logged since their PP practical test. I would remind flight instructors that whenever ground training is required, it must be documented as stated in 14 CFR 61.51:

Sec. 61.51

Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
...
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General--
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
...
(2) Type of pilot experience or training--
...
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
...
(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the instructor's authorized signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

In this context, from the FAA's perspective, "if it isn't written down, it didn't happen." So, if your logbook doesn't have an appropriate ground training entry for your flight review along with the flight training entry, that flight review is, in the FAA's eyes, not valid. In particular, since 14 CFR 61.56(a)(1) specifically requires that the ground training for a flight review include "A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter," the "description of the training given" in the log entry for that ground training must include words to that effect.

 

[deltaindia]

Here's a scenario that I recently had a discussion about with a fellow CFI:

Flight review is due by March 31
CFI renewal is due by May 31

Can the CFI rated pilot take flight portion of review by March 31, and then allow the CFI online Jepp renewal Course (or attend a FIRC) count as the ground portion by end of May?

Basically, the flight review gets broken up but he's still legal to fly since his last ground review came 2 months after his last flight review 2 years prior. Or, so that's the interpretation he got and a local FSDO official agreed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Here's a scenario that I recently had a discussion about with a fellow CFI:

Flight review is due by March 31
CFI renewal is due by May 31

Can the CFI rated pilot take flight portion of review by March 31, and then allow the CFI online Jepp renewal Course (or attend a FIRC) count as the ground portion by end of May?

Basically, the flight review gets broken up but he's still legal to fly since his last ground review came 2 months after his last flight review 2 years prior. Or, so that's the interpretation he got and a local FSDO official agreed.

That's way, way too complicated for me. The reg is much simpler.

==============================
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate and who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily completed a renewal of a flight instructor certificate under the provisions in § 61.197 need not accomplish the one hour of ground training specified in paragraph (a) of this section.
==============================

"Need not accomplish." Not "substitute for." IOW, there simply is no "ground portion" of a flight review for a current CFI. Only a flight portion. So the FR date is the "flight" review completion date.

Yes, despite our glee in the contrary, sometimes the FAR that is is simpler than the FAR we make up.

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's a scenario that I recently had a discussion about with a fellow CFI:

Flight review is due by March 31
CFI renewal is due by May 31

Can the CFI rated pilot take flight portion of review by March 31, and then allow the CFI online Jepp renewal Course (or attend a FIRC) count as the ground portion by end of May?

Sort of. The regulation waives the requirement for the ground portion if you have renewed your CFI by any means listed in 61.197 within the preceding 24 calendar months. Thus, the FIRC doesn't "count as the ground portion," but rather, the renewal itself waives the requirement for the ground portion entirely for 24 calendar months.

Basically, the flight review gets broken up

Again, it's not that the flight review is "broken up," but rather that only the flight portion is required if you've renewed your CFI within the preceding 24 calendar months (and even that is waived if you renewed by taking a CFI practical test).

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is fine as long as the hour ground and air are logged and the endorsement given. Doesn't have to be a separate flight, FRs are not supposed to be a pseudo checkride.

There is, however, an advantage to having a separate flight that is designated as the FR. Other than it being the most common way of doing it and despite it not technically being a checkride most of us tend to view a FR that way, with a little bit of worry, concern and pressure we don't have in a plain vanilla lesson.

I don't think a little stress is a bad thing. The stress is its own "reasonable distraction" and exactly what happens when something goes wrong.

 

[BillTIZ]

Here's a scenario that I recently had a discussion about with a fellow CFI:

Flight review is due by March 31
CFI renewal is due by May 31

Can the CFI rated pilot take flight portion of review by March 31, and then allow the CFI online Jepp renewal Course (or attend a FIRC) count as the ground portion by end of May?

Basically, the flight review gets broken up but he's still legal to fly since his last ground review came 2 months after his last flight review 2 years prior. Or, so that's the interpretation he got and a local FSDO official agreed.

I would think he is grounded until he has the FIRC completion certificate. Otherwise just completing the flight portion in March is only 1/2 the requirement of a flight review. He's grounded on 1 April until he has a copy of the FIRC completion certificate, dated and signed.

If the decision is that his last FIRC completion was 2yrs prior in May is still valid, I suppose that must meet the FAR interpretation by FSDO. It's a stretch, but I can see their reasoning.

This presumes that his previous FIRC was in May. He could have completed the 2yr old FIRC up to 3 months earlier and still keep his May CFI expiration date. I would expect the date of completion of the FiRC is the key date. Not the date of expiration of his instructor certificate.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I would think he is grounded until he has the FIRC completion certificate. Otherwise just completing the flight portion in March is only 1/2 the requirement of a flight review. He's grounded on 1 April until he has a copy of the FIRC completion certificate, dated and signed.

I don't see it that way. See Ron's post #9.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would think he is grounded until he has the FIRC completion certificate. Otherwise just completing the flight portion in March is only 1/2 the requirement of a flight review. He's grounded on 1 April until he has a copy of the FIRC completion certificate, dated and signed.

Can you point out the language of the rule that requires any "ground portion" at all or that CFI renewals must be via FIRC in order to meet the requirement? I think the reg doesn't support your opinion.

"just completing the flight portion in March" is all that's required since the scenario indicates the has, within the prior 24 months (to directly quote the reg) "satisfactorily completed a renewal of a flight instructor certificate under the provisions in § 61.197" and (to continue to directly quote the reg) "need not accomplish the one hour of ground training."

 

[BillTIZ]

Can you point out the language of the rule that requires any "ground portion" at all or that CFI renewals must be via FIRC in order to meet the requirement? I think the reg doesn't support your opinion.

"just completing the flight portion in March" is all that's required since the scenario indicates the has, within the prior 24 months (to directly quote the reg) "satisfactorily completed a renewal of a flight instructor certificate under the provisions in § 61.197" and (to continue to directly quote the reg) "need not accomplish the one hour of ground training."

Do we count the date the CFI expires and go back 24 months, or the date the requirements for the CFI renewal was completed?

A CFI may complete the requirements up to 3 months before expiration of his current certificate and maintain the same expiration month. "satisfactorily completed the requirements" in March, renewed CFI maintains his May expiration. In this case the March dates work out with his flight portion of a flight review and he is good to go.

But if he waited until April for the flight review and "satisfactorily" completed the requirements for his CFI in March 25 months prior, it would not work. Cannot use the expiration date for his CFI to determine the validity of the FIRC towards his Flight review. What was the dated of the FIRC certificate?