Question for car buyers

[N747JB]

Would you rather see a lower advertised price on a new vehicle knowing you would have to add for additional fees, doc fee etc. OR would you prefer a higher advertised price with no additional fees other than tax and the cost of the registration? Assuming the net cost to you is the same. For those that don't know, I am a car dealer.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I would prefer to see the total out the door price, but I'd rather the standard be kept if all cars were to be advertised pre tax and fee.

 

[us AAirways]

Probably the price of the car excluding fees. The dealer I brought from last time had the doc fee listed by the window sticker, as well as printed on the contract before it's filled out. I don't have a problem with $209 on a $30k+ vehicle, but others I guess do.

 

[write-stuff]

I want the total price including tax and all fees. Only then do I decide if it's too much. It's the only way to keep dealers from increasing the total after you've already agreed to a price.

 

[Geico266]

Just bought a new Highlander for the wife. Find out what the dealer paid and go from there. Shop several dealers within 200 miles. I found the exact car we were looking for in Kansas City so I used that price to beat the dealer down here. I ended up buying locally, but would have purchased the car out of town in a heart beat. Having someone fly me to another city to pick up the vehicle and drive it home is no big deal.

 

[dell30rb]

I think most buyers are used to seeing a doc fee, tax and registration fee. Around here a reasonable doc fee would be $250-450? Haven't been to a new car dealership in a while.

I'd like to see out-the-door prices but I think you'd be better off advertising pre-tax/fees as long as they're reasonable.

 

[DJTorrente]

John,

No offfense here, but I pay no attention to any advertised dealer price; because I know to a stone cold certainty that it NOT the price out the door.

Douglass Adams wrote something funny in Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- yes, its comedy fiction, but I think it's on-point:

The second nonabsolute number is the given time of arrival, which is now known to be one of those most bizarre of mathematical concepts, a recipriversexclusion, a number whose existence can only be defined as being anything other than itself. In other words, the given time of arrival is the one moment of time at which it is impossible that any member of the party will arrive.*

Whatever price you advertise, the market has trained me as a buyer to believe that it is the one price I can know for certain that will NOT be the bottom-line price.

Would I rather see an all-in price? Yes. But you're got a classic collective action problem. You can be a good guy and advertise a real price, but the market has trained prospective buyers not to trust it. So there's no incentive for anyone to be the first to break from the established pattern.

You sell Brand F, right?

*The series of books has a bit of a cult following. http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Bistromathics

 

[N747JB]

Thanks for the responses, what I am looking for is advertised Internet price compared to bottom line prices. We have a $499.00 doc fee, between average and the low side of average for the Atlanta market.
Assuming the same bottom line price, would you be more likely to shop where they have a price $500.00 higher and NO FEES or one that is $500.00 lower and adds $500.00 in fees?

 

[ja_user]

When I negotiate I make it clear we are talking about the total price, not including tax. The documentation fee ****es me off as much as a fuel surcharge when renting a plane.

 

[ebykowsky]

Advertise without a doc fee or tax, but make sure you include it (out the door price) the second you sit down to discuss numbers and settle on a price. Don't bait and switch or I'll walk right out. Oh, and please don't do that stupid "no haggle price structure" with "fair prices" and all that bullcrap like certain national car dealerships do. Leave several hundred to a thousand or so worth of wiggle room so I can feel like I got a better deal through my negotiation skills. If they really want a no-haggle price, then they can pay you sticker. Part of the point of buying a car is getting the dealer to come down in price. Only suckers don't want to negotiate.

 

[John221us]

I guess I am with the majority here. The advertised price doesn't mean a whole lot. Truthfully, I don't shop ads much. When I am ready to buy a car, I figure out what I want and then go shopping. I find the car and then negotiate the price. I can't remember ever buying and ad car.

 

[denverpilot]

I walk in and ask for the total out the door, off the lot, price. And I show up with my own cash or financing already lined up. If I have a trade I already know what I want to get for it, I also know the range I'm willing to pay on the "new" vehicle, or I'm walking.

Too many hidden variables otherwise.

[edit: ]

They get ONE shot at that stupid "let me run this by my manager" game. If they leave the table a second time, I walk out. I never let them have the keys to the trade to "look it over" while negotiations are taking place. I'll walk outside with you and open it. It's still my car.

And I already know what my tax rate is. That part isn't created by the dealer nor is it their problem to inform me.

Simplest deal I ever made was on Karen's new car years ago. Found the three dealers who had the exact model she wanted via websites, faxed a reasonable bottom dollar offer with a letter that it wasn't negotiable to all three.

Had a call back in 30 minutes saying one dealer needed $80 more bucks. Sold. Picked it up three days later.

My free time is valuable to me.

On Karen's truck, we would have been in and out in 30 minutes if there hadn't been an awesome explosion at an industrial facility across the highway and we all weren't gawking for an hour.

Ha. That was worth wasting an hour on!

We made jokes about it being a "hot deal!"

I would have faxed them an offer too, but I saw some rust in photos and I needed to confirm it was surface rust and not a significant problem. Dealership was also over 100 miles from home, so it was a one-shot deal. Go look, negotiate, if we can't get it done in an hour, I'm gone. Buh-bye.

 

[N747JB]

I do appreciate the feedback so far, it's very helpful. My issue is the state is coming down on Ford dealers in particular for the way Ford is advertising "extra rebates" like trade in assistance or Ford Motor Credit finance rebates. They are also looking at doc fees, although they are perfectly legal, they must be included in the advertised price in GA. But nobody actually includes them, actually a few do, but most don't.
A lot of our buyers are shopping online and of course we want to give competitive pricing, but if I comply with the state regulations and add the doc fee, it appears I am several hundred higher than the other guys that don't comply. IF I am the "good guy" and don't charge the doc fee, my pricing is higher, people shop elsewhere and the other guys add it in after you arrive.
Ahh the pleasures of the car business!

 

[Clark1961]

I don't care what is advertised, I use a broker and only talk out the door cost. I don't care what the broker does to get the deal.

 

[N747JB]

I don't care what is advertised, I use a broker and only talk out the door cost. I don't care what the broker does to get the deal.

That's an interesting way to do it, I didn't know brokers where still around.

 

[denverpilot]

I edited my post in case you didn't see the additional.

As far as being a couple hundred higher, that's chump change on most cars nowadays.

Internet for shopping is fine. I'm not a fan of actually buying via the Net. I'd pay your $200 if it still came in under my desired price.

It's easier if you just include it, but I've never seen a dealer show a real complete price anywhere other than indoors at the table on a contract.

 

[Clark1961]

I buy for the company I work for so don't want to spend hours working a deal - gotta get it done.

Depending on what i'm buying I may get bids from several brokers...and there are plenty of brokers around Denver.

 

[N747JB]

I buy for the company I work for so don't want to spend hours working a deal - gotta get it done.

Depending on what i'm buying I may get bids from several brokers...and there are plenty of brokers around Denver.

Are they leasing companies? Brokers are illegal in a lot of states, including GA, just curious.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Looking for a car for my daughter. It looks like shel'll be spending more time in Erie, PA. So the Ford Mustang has to go.

I'm letting her take the lead and I'm doing the moral support/bouncer thing. She liked a Mazda 2, but the dealer had one of those "here's the price, but only if you qualify of every rebate known to man". She missed the asterisk and the small print in the ad. Therefore, they want more money. Then, the Mustang isn't worth KBB blue book dealer trade in value. Bottom line, they wanted the Mustang, plus a bigger check then I was willing to write. We'll see if they call back or not.

 

[denverpilot]

Heres a popular one here:

http://www.hmbrown.com

They will do all sorts of deals. You tell them your price, whether you want to lease or buy, etc... They go find the car.

You can stipulate your own financing, your leasing company, whatever... Or let them find it all.

 

[Clark1961]

Are they leasing companies? Brokers are illegal in a lot of states, including GA, just curious.

Nope, not leasing - just middle men for the purchase. Strange that they would be illegal since all they are doing is acting as a purchasing agent. Of course I can see that there is lots of room for misrepresentation and abuse but then dealers can do that too. Maybe the dealers didn't like the competition and lobbied to have them outlawed?

Of course there are plenty of leasing outfits around too but that's an expensive way to go for fleet vehicles that end their life with little to no residual value. I've looked at leasing but so far have stuck with buying.

 

[N747JB]

I don't know that the dealers objected to them as much as the manufacturers did, they are just another layer of costs and some of them may not be honest, I know it's hard to believe in the car business.
Ford has a policy that we cannot sell to a broker, of course in your case you are buying it and either you or the dealer is paying the broker a fee.
I agree that buying is usually much cheaper for fleets, especially if you run the wheels off of them like most folks. I buy all my company vehicles, vans etc and run them until they drop! I've got two delivery vans that I am replacing this year with over 450K miles on them.

Nope, not leasing - just middle men for the purchase. Strange that they would be illegal since all they are doing is acting as a purchasing agent. Of course I can see that there is lots of room for misrepresentation and abuse but then dealers can do that too. Maybe the dealers didn't like the competition and lobbied to have them outlawed?

Of course there are plenty of leasing outfits around too but that's an expensive way to go for fleet vehicles that end their life with little to no residual value. I've looked at leasing but so far have stuck with buying.

 

[Clark1961]

Heres a popular one here:

http://www.hmbrown.com

They will do all sorts of deals. You tell them your price, whether you want to lease or buy, etc... They go find the car.

You can stipulate your own financing, your leasing company, whatever... Or let them find it all.

I use'em - they do have folks who can dig up the kind of deals I look for - last years model and things of that nature. They will work for their money.

 

[FastEddieB]

Karen and I recently bought a used 2011 Ford Flex from a Chevrolet dealer. We had found it via an online search.

Here's a letter I felt I had to write after the transaction, prompted by a survey the sent:

February 11, 2014

Dear Sirs,

We wanted to expound just a little regarding your survey.

Overall we are very satisfied with the 2011 Ford Flex we bought from you - it was as represented, perfectly suited our needs and priced very competitively.

But one aspect of the sales process did bother us both and tarnished what would have otherwise been a very pleasant experience overall.

After offering $26,000 for the car, Mr. Hutchinson went through the usual “run it by the manager” routine that we know is a staple of car salesman - an “appeal to authority” that leaves the customer at the whim of a “higher power”. We knew that the recommended action for a customer in this instance was to insist on negotiating directly with the person in the position to make the decision, but to keep things moving smoothly we played along.

Where it got dicey, and in our opinion deceptive, was when the offer was accepted - $26,000 plus tax (naturally), tags (naturally) and “doc fee” of “four ninety nine”. In good faith I asked if that was $4.99 - some sort of state stamp or document fee or the like.

When we were told it was, in fact $499, and a dealer charge, we were ready to walk. That seemed to both of us a blatant attempt to eke out an extra $500 of dealer profit disguised as something else. Unacceptable. Mr. Hutchinson did delete it after explaining it as “a mistake by the manager”, but we did not buy that at all.

So, we got a great car at a very fair price and are happy overall with the experience. But we suggest you reconsider how you package that “doc fee”. To put it forth as it was is deceitful.

Respectfully,

Ed & Karen B
Mineral Bluff, GA

As an aside, we're always ready to "walk" when the games begin. I have done so at least twice when dealers started screwing around.

 

[Hank S]

The last car I bought [Sat, 1 Dec 2012], we test drove many cars from multiple manufacturers [Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.] at several dealers. Found one we liked, for my wife's daily driver.

Ignored the windshield price, ignored the "SALE!" tag hanging from the mirror price. While the salesman was "talking to the manager," I went to KBB.com on my phone and looked up the car. Due to a deer, we had no trade-in, and a need for another ride, but I had the insurance check for downpayment.

When the salesman returned with his "best price," I just told him that he was still thousands above Kelly Blue Book. He asked if I would buy at KBB's price, and I said yes. Five minutes later he was back. The price I paid was $500 under Kelly instead of $2500 or so above.

Had he not done so, we would have walked. I hate car shopping, I hate car salesmen, and I despise the time-wasting back and forth BS, sitting in the back room drinking coffee while "discounting" the price to just a couple of thousand above street value.

In return, I drive the wheels off of my cars to minimize my exposure to the whole durn charade. Show your customers some respect, the word will spread and people like me may come your way more than once every decade or longer. The choice is yours: try to swindle me once every ten or twelve years, or sell me a vehicle at legitimate prices every five or six years. Try too hard to hornswoggle me, and never sell me a car at all.

 

[cowman]

IMO, there shouldn't be any of these add-on fees. It should be built into the price of the car and just considered the price of doing business.

As a consumer why do I care how much it cost you to have the car transported, prepped, and paperwork done? All I need to know is what number I would be writing on the check in order for you to hand over the car. The only reason to break it out like this is to fool the consumer into thinking they're paying less than they really are.

 

[us AAirways]

Probably best just to include the doc fee in the price. Like the airline baggage fees. Everyone wants something for nothing, and they don't realize they are already paying it.

 

[poadeleted21]

The last car I bought [Sat, 1 Dec 2012], we test drove many cars from multiple manufacturers [Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.] at several dealers. Found one we liked, for my wife's daily driver.

Ignored the windshield price, ignored the "SALE!" tag hanging from the mirror price. While the salesman was "talking to the manager," I went to KBB.com on my phone and looked up the car. Due to a deer, we had no trade-in, and a need for another ride, but I had the insurance check for downpayment.

When the salesman returned with his "best price," I just told him that he was still thousands above Kelly Blue Book. He asked if I would buy at KBB's price, and I said yes. Five minutes later he was back. The price I paid was $500 under Kelly instead of $2500 or so above.

Had he not done so, we would have walked. I hate car shopping, I hate car salesmen, and I despise the time-wasting back and forth BS, sitting in the back room drinking coffee while "discounting" the price to just a couple of thousand above street value.

In return, I drive the wheels off of my cars to minimize my exposure to the whole durn charade. Show your customers some respect, the word will spread and people like me may come your way more than once every decade or longer. The choice is yours: try to swindle me once every ten or twelve years, or sell me a vehicle at legitimate prices every five or six years. Try too hard to hornswoggle me, and never sell me a car at all.

One of my good friend's grandfather invented this whole process. His family is worth Billions (that's with a "B") from it. Losing one hard sell customer is nothing when there's 100 idiots lined up with a credit line and a hole burning in their pocket.

 

[denverpilot]

One of my good friend's grandfather invented this whole process. His family is worth Billions (that's with a "B") from it. Losing one hard sell customer is nothing when there's 100 idiots lined up with a credit line and a hole burning in their pocket.

So his grandfather is Henry Ford? He must be really old.

 

[N747JB]

One of my good friend's grandfather invented this whole process. His family is worth Billions (that's with a "B") from it. Losing one hard sell customer is nothing when there's 100 idiots lined up with a credit line and a hole burning in their pocket.

If if had 100's lined up to buy, I'd be sitting on an island somewhere watching the sunrise this morning! The old days of treating customers badly are gone in most places!

 

[imQ]

Any additional fees or add on after they have accepted an offer is a deal killer. I say it up front, and will leave immediately. Finance guy has killed several deals that way. They tried it with the truck in the drive. It cost them extra $ off to get me to come back. Doc fee is additional dealer profit. Nothing more.

 

[SCCutler]

I regard the "Document Fee" in car buying the same way I regard the "Resort Fee" in hotels- as a mere artifice, a means to claim you're selling the product for one price when, in fact, it is being sold for more.

My question to the dealer is, "show me what I am getting for that added money." No added value, no pay. "They all do it" is not a persuasive argument.

I would prefer to deal with a very straightforward and respectful, "here's the price" dealer, than waste a boatload of time, back and forth-ing, manager-talking, yakkitey-yakking. Time is money.

Back in '89, shopping for a Jeep Cherokee, very hot at the time. Every dealer I found (this is, of course, pre-Internet) was advertising that they were selling with big discounts, but they had "Additional Dealer Markup" (or my favorite, "Dealer Protection Package") stickers, and started from an artificially-inflated number. One dealer even had an ADM sticker on an Eagle Premier, the Renault-with-a-sticker NO ONE wanted. One dealer I called (had seen list of Jeeps with their logo on the spare cover) told me (like all of them),"cone on by, we're dealing." I told him it was too far to drive to be jerked around, and he said, "fair enough, you got a fax, I'll send you dome stickers and what I'll do on price."

He did, the numbers worked, we dropped in and drove off either a new Jeep (the price was actually a little lower than he'd quoted, because of a new rebate program ChryCo started).

No chicken-dirt games, straight dealing. Sad thing is, I believe it when dealer principals with whom I speak tell me, "that can't work, because folks want to haggle, feel as if they've gotten a deal." Sure thing - I'm gonna go in and negotiate with a seasoned pro, school him. You betcha.

 

[ebykowsky]

I regard the "Document Fee" in car buying the same way I regard the "Resort Fee" in hotels- as a mere artifice, a means to claim you're selling the product for one price when, in fact, it is being sold for more.

My question to the dealer is, "show me what I am getting for that added money." No added value, no pay. "They all do it" is not a persuasive argument.

I would prefer to deal with a very straightforward and respectful, "here's the price" dealer, than waste a boatload of time, back and forth-ing, manager-talking, yakkitey-yakking. Time is money.

Back in '89, shopping for a Jeep Cherokee, very hot at the time. Every dealer I found (this is, of course, pre-Internet) was advertising that they were selling with big discounts, but they had "Additional Dealer Markup" (or my favorite, "Dealer Protection Package") stickers, and started from an artificially-inflated number. One dealer even had an ADM sticker on an Eagle Premier, the Renault-with-a-sticker NO ONE wanted. One dealer I called (had seen list of Jeeps with their logo on the spare cover) told me (like all of them),"cone on by, we're dealing." I told him it was too far to drive to be jerked around, and he said, "fair enough, you got a fax, I'll send you dome stickers and what I'll do on price."

He did, the numbers worked, we dropped in and drove off either a new Jeep (the price was actually a little lower than he'd quoted, because of a new rebate program ChryCo started).

No chicken-dirt games, straight dealing. Sad thing is, I believe it when dealer principals with whom I speak tell me, "that can't work, because folks want to haggle, feel as if they've gotten a deal." Sure thing - I'm gonna go in and negotiate with a seasoned pro, school him. You betcha.

Maybe this is just my experience, but I dealt with two 'no haggle' dealerships in my most recent car buying experience. CarMax gave me an offer for my car $2000 less than what it was worth and the car they were selling was priced maybe 200-300 under what I would expect a normal dealer to start at. No way I'm doing business with that. The other dealership was similar, but not as bad, but they listed doc fees as part of the price. However, they tried to double doc me when we started talking numbers and were not able to get the price to a competitive level. The dealership I bought from had the truck on the lot for the past month and was pretty motivated to sell. Got a much fairer price there than either of the non-negotiators could do on a very similar car (same make/model, nearly same miles, slightly different accessories).

 

[silver-eagle]

I find dealer prep or other add-on fees wrong. It's like the airlines charging for [a reasonable amount of] luggage. It's a BS way to make more money. You're IN the business of selling cars. Sell me a car for the car price. Take your commission, costs, prep fees, from the sale price. I also do not expect to go to a retail store and pay "a clerk" fee. A loaf of bread is a loaf of bread, not $.20 more at check out.
Truth in advertising.

 

[poadeleted21]

So his grandfather is Henry Ford? He must be really old.

Nah not the car, just sealing the deal.

The Hull Dobbs Automotive was begun in 1921 and continued for 78 years. In the 1950s and 1960s, the company was the largest seller of Ford vehicles in the U.S. They were also the originators of the high-pressure auto sales techniques that folks loved to hate. The downtown location on Union was choice property - next to the Peabody hotel. The family sold the auto dealerships in 1999. The building was demolished when Peabody Place was built. The Dobbs family moved into the restaurant business - Dobbs House and Toddle House, airline catering, and beer distribution.

 

[N747JB]

Nah not the car, just sealing the deal.

The Hull-Dobbs group is legendary for their well run dealerhips that were inovative and had consistently high profits. Their tactics might not be considered ethical today, but it at the time they were the leaders!
Lots of dealers got their start with them, they had reputation for running a tight ship, grinding people and selling cars.

 

[jhausch]

I suppose I always want to be discussing the all in price. I might actually seek out a dealer and pay $100 extra for a promise that the transaction from the time of agreed upon price to driving off the lot was guaranteed to take 30 min or less.

 

[FastEddieB]

We just bought a travel trailer from a distant dealer.

The question posed was, "If I bring a certified check, how much should it be for?"

It was the advertised price plus $15 transfer/title fee.

That's what I showed up with. If they had asked for even 1¢ more, we would have just driven home and continued looking.

As it was, paid the additional agreed upon price for the weight distribution hitch, ball and sway control, and bought a few accessories at a discount and drove home - it was a quite pleasant transaction.

 

[Ken Ibold]

As long as we're on the subject, one of my pet peeves is ads that have "monthly payment" with an asterisk that has a million lines of mouse type. I even recall one salesman who would not tell me the price of the car, only wanted to negotiate what the payment would be ... when we had not even discussed financing and he did not know I was a cash buyer.

I have had great success with the buying services of USAA and American Express, in which they provide a price and a contact at the dealer for a given vehicle. You can go in and try to do better, or just go in and write the check. On one occasion I had an offer in hand from a dealer, and called the USAA buyer's rep. She looked into it and said "if you can get it for that, do it. It's a better price than I can get," but that was the exception.

 

[Luvrv8]

The last new car I bought I had the same speech to each dealer. My wife had the twins and the day I bought a new car was the day we brought them home from the hospital. So here was my speech. "I am tired, my wife and I just had twins 4 days ago and I have a 3 year old. I want a out the door price on this model, included is the highest level factory warranty. Don't ask me what others have said, I want the out the door price. At the end of the day today I will buy from the lowest price dealer." 2 dealers would not even give me a price, 4 others did. I went back to the first one and said you win, he said I knew we would, my manager has to sell 3 cars today or he losses his job.