Quality and Workmanship in the US

Michael

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Is it just me or do you all notice the quality and workmanship of products made or sold in the US has gone to hell? I used to be able to provide quality products, but competing foreign distributors have flooded the market with crappy aftermarket products so cheap that the quality plants i used to buy from, now buy from the crappy aftermarket companies and stamp their name on it. The customer looses. If you want quality any more, pretty much you are out of luck. In my business you will get crap.
Moldings i buy used to fit and look factory. Now when i buy a molding, not only does it not fit, it looks nothing like the factory part, but looks like a 3 yr old cut it with a razor blade. This is considered satisfactory according to the manufacturer.
I buy a phone. It breaks within a year. new tv. expect a year, maybe 2. computer...the same. it is my opinion that pretty much anything you buy from walmart, kmart, ace, etc will break sooner than the same products that were made years ago.
what are your thoughts on this?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

<jaded>

Why invest in quality when you can drive down cost, force re-purchase of the product (recurring revenue), and still make your sales targets?

People are sheep. They will buy the same crappy thing eight times over and not fix it. Rarely does the customer rebel in such a way that you actually have to turn out a quality product.

To top it all off, if you show increasing margins, with strong revenue performance and excellent unit sales, you'll be rewarded by the owners/holders of your company. What is there to lose?

</jaded>

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Is it just me or do you all notice the quality and workmanship of products made or sold in the US has gone to hell?

It is most certainly not just you.

The problem is, nobody pays for quality any more. If I sell a high-quality widget for $5.00 that lasts for >10 years and you sell a piece of crap for $2.99 that lasts six months, well, 10 years from now you will have made $60 to my $5 and I'll be long out of business. :mad:

You see it everywhere. Even Midwest Airlines now has "Signature service" (their traditional all-first class planes with wine and freshly baked cookies served during flight) and "Saver service, featuring 2x3 coach seating with extra legroom and low fares..." :(

Hopefully the pendulum will swing the other way. I sure do like all the little niceties on my Volvo, and if I ever have to ride the airlines again I hope that Midwest still has Signature Service going to my destination.

Maybe this is an effect of the shrinking middle class? They may not have bought all high-end stuff, but they'd splurge once in a while.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Maybe this is an effect of the shrinking middle class? They may not have bought all high-end stuff, but they'd splurge once in a while.

It is complex. The middle class wants it all, wants to live large, so they buy lots of cheap goods made in other countries. But, the gotcha is, those cheap foreign goods cause the loss of american middle class jobs.

And yes, I know its a global economy, blah blah blah, but I still try to buy American when I can. And this is getting close to spin, and I don't go there, so I'll shut up now.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

When you can buy a Chinese made Bonanza for $50k instead of a Kansas made one for $500k, I'll agree. :D

What you describe has been happening for 30+ years, first with Japan, then Korea, now China making all our cheap stuff that started out poor quality but is now better than (most) American quality.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

It is complex. The middle class wants it all, wants to live large, so they buy lots of cheap goods made in other countries. But, the gotcha is, those cheap foreign goods cause the loss of american middle class jobs.

And yes, I know its a global economy, blah blah blah, but I still try to buy American when I can. And this is getting close to spin, and I don't go there, so I'll shut up now.

Woohaaaa....you are SO on the money. If only people would be happy with they can reasonably afford and quit trying to live like mini-Trump's.

Heck there is an article in USA today about elderly debt. Yes some of it was to pay for medicine (when and where people got the thought that any and all medications to keep one alive should be provided by the government I do not know) but others were for vacations and other things. I remember one older guy saying "they send you these things and you use them without thinking". Well DUH...that is YOUR fault.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

When you can buy a Chinese made Bonanza for $50k instead of a Kansas made one for $500k, I'll agree. :D

What you describe has been happening for 30+ years, first with Japan, then Korea, now China making all our cheap stuff that started out poor quality but is now better than (most) American quality.

Interstingly though now Japan makes very high quality merchandise. I wonder if Korea and China will follow suit?

But back to what Michael posted about. Ironically folks don't even know they are buying crap. For instance the other day I was furniture shopping. MAN WAS THAT EXCITING. Anyway by looking at the stuff you really cant tell its made of glue and sawdust. Thats whats scary to me.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

What high volume product besides cars is even made in the US anymore?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

For instance the other day I was furniture shopping. MAN WAS THAT EXCITING. Anyway by looking at the stuff you really cant tell its made of glue and sawdust. Thats whats scary to me.
Isn't the the truth. It's not even a matter of price; it's that it's very difficult to find good quality furniture at any price.

Our friends thought we were nuts when we spend 6K to refurbish a 300 year old dining room set. Until it was done, that is.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

What high volume product besides cars is even made in the US anymore?

Why does it have to be high volume? How about high profit and high value add like airplanes, technology, defense, pharmaceutical, medical equipment, food processing, etc.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

What high volume product besides cars is even made in the US anymore?

Well, we do a fine job of turning beach sand into gold at a few facilities in the US (and Ireland and Israel). Of course, the wafers are then shipped to low cost labor places like Costa Rica and China to be packaged. And we crank out a LOT of them each year.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

<jaded>
Why invest in quality when you can drive down cost, force re-purchase of the product (recurring revenue), and still make your sales targets?

Cheers,
-Andrew

Hey! Just found this thread; if you would have put the name of the new aircraft that is selling large volume and low price with limited life, I would have gotten here more quickly!! <duckin and runnin>

Best,

Dave
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Hey! Just found this thread; if you would have put the name of the new aircraft that is selling large volume and low price with limited life, I would have gotten here more quickly!! <duckin and runnin>

Best,

Dave
Robinson R-22/44s ? ;)
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Hand tools. There are still no mechanics' hand tools which can hold a candle to well-crafted American goods.

Hardware: cheap-ass fasteners are worth much less than the puny savings they give on the purchase.

Household appliances; there are those who claim that some of the European appliances are "better" and, having looked into it, I cannot agree. There are certainly some which are *good* (e.g., Robt Bosch), but the only viable standard for comparison would be with similarly-priced American appliances, and at that price point (high), I still think the US-produced are parity or better on quality.

One does still find some US-produced textile goods, and these are generally of good quality.

Packaging and materials-handling systems. Desktop computers (I have never had a single infancy-failure on a desktop, from Dell or Compaq/HP). I believe Apple still mfgs desktops domestically, they seem well-crafted.

And cars are better-built than ever they have been, with the differences in quality from foreign nameplates down to the level of statistical insignificance; if the manufacturer's would make a few good tweaks in ride & drive (say, look at what the new Caddys are like!), and improve the dealership experience, there'd be something to crow about there.

Obviously, I like the way Lockheed-Martin and Boeing build jets, Cessna, Cirrus, et al.

Quality is out there; it is tough to compete against cheaper foreign manufacturers on commodity goods, even where the goods are (as they usually are) clearly inferior. Case in point: I needed a new cartridge for a 37-year-old Moen faucet; Lowe's had two: one made in Taiwan, one, in USA. I compared the two, and paid more for the clearly better-made US version, which had better detailing in the casting and machined parts, and less plastic in wear areas where brass belonged. It cost more money and was well worth it. For that matter, given reasonably equal quality, I'll still pay a premium for US-built products.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Quality is out there;

Where is it besides vacuum cleaners and mechanics tools? Take the telephone for example, Remember back in the day when you would have your dial phone sitting on the table. You would get up to grab something from across the room, and the phone would fall off the table, slam onto the ground. This was in most cases acceptable, hell I knew the phone was gonna hit the floor before i stepped away from it. But it would always still work. It wouldn't even hang up on you. Now take a look at what our choices are in home phones. Do you honestly think todays phones at whatever price you are willing to spend can take the abuse that we used to dish out? No way. i don't recall my dial phones ever costing more than 30 bucks. goto staples and see what you get for 30 bucks now.
AHH whatever... rant off.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Where is it besides vacuum cleaners and mechanics tools? Take the telephone for example, Remember back in the day when you would have your dial phone sitting on the table. You would get up to grab something from across the room, and the phone would fall off the table, slam onto the ground. This was in most cases acceptable, hell I knew the phone was gonna hit the floor before i stepped away from it. But it would always still work. It wouldn't even hang up on you. Now take a look at what our choices are in home phones. Do you honestly think todays phones at whatever price you are willing to spend can take the abuse that we used to dish out? No way. i don't recall my dial phones ever costing more than 30 bucks. goto staples and see what you get for 30 bucks now.
AHH whatever... rant off.

Well, now that they don't have cords so they don't fall over when you go accross the room, they don't have to be nearly as robust. :)
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Why does it have to be high volume? How about high profit and high value add like airplanes, technology, defense, pharmaceutical, medical equipment, food processing, etc.

Exactly! (My jaded lamentation aside)

Focus our domestic workforce on "value add" - where the margins and value support the labor cost. Source your "commodity" work to where the labor market can still support a healthy margin.

I have a model that I use to explain global service delivery to people. Value add work is performed on tier one, and work cascades down the model depending on how complex you want to get.

Essentially, the "top" tier is all the value add, know-the-culture, higher level work. Software architecture, buisness planning, etc - roles that require a great deal of intimacy with our culture and our economy. These functions are primarially performed "in country", or in a country of similar economic standing.

The next tier is high-performance "decreasing" value services, like advanced software engineering, accounting, and financial support. These can be performed by "near shore" providers (i.e. Ireland, Canada) and select providers in "off shore" (i.e. India, Russia, China is an emerging player here) based on competency. This allows a firm to unlock the value of a higher standard of education at a slightly lower operating cost, while also realizing some cultural and scheduling (i.e. follow-the-sun support) benefits.

The next tier down in "commodity value" services. This is a bit of a contradiction in terms, but the services in this space are true software engineering, claims processing, and call centers. Some language compatibility and a good education system are important here, but cost leverage and ability to manage "turbulent" (high turnover) staffing teams is important. This is a pure "off shore" play, with India and Eastern Europe leaders here. China is still emerging in this space, too, but will be here faster than they will be at tier 2.

The "bottom" tier is pure commodity service. Production support, packaging, simple manufacturing process execution where education is not as heavily valued. Turnover management and "dynamic" (i.e. easy to move) operational design are most important here. These are found in the "deep shore" facilities, in countries like the Philippines, Indonesia, Central Asia and African markets.

Once you have this model in place, you can reap the benefits of global culture, a true 24-hour work day (24 hours of shifts all working towards a common goal) while freeing up cash for investor realization and corporate enhancement. The upside of this model is, when properly implemented, process functions can easily move from delivery center to delivery center, aiding a firm in quickly realizing wage arbitrage and operational enhancements (i.e. nicer to cut down time-to-market by moving packaging from Bangalore to Jakarta).

Just my $0.02

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

What high volume product besides cars is even made in the US anymore?

Paper, and lots of it. I've got another 43,700 pounds of it behind me right now. Funny how computers and networks were supposed to lead to the "paperless office..." Yeah right.

Oh, and don't forget beer. Going into the valley near Trenton, OH where Miller has a plant, there's a sign that says "This facility produces 11 million cans and bottles of beer a day." Multiply that by the Miller facilities in Milwaukee, WI; Eden, VA; and several other cities. Then, multiply that by 4 because Anheuser-Busch sells 3x what Miller does. Add in all of the other brands. Pretty soon we'll be drowning in the stuff if we don't drink up! :cheers:

Plenty of chips, Coke, and other junk food too.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Why does it have to be high volume? How about high profit and high value add like airplanes, technology, defense, pharmaceutical, medical equipment, food processing, etc.
Not exactly sure of your point. I think we may be agreeing. The advantage of cheap labor is lost when you don't make a lot. I've worked at companies that only built a few units a month. No point in going overseas for that.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Well, we do a fine job of turning beach sand into gold at a few facilities in the US (and Ireland and Israel). Of course, the wafers are then shipped to low cost labor places like Costa Rica and China to be packaged. And we crank out a LOT of them each year.

Isn't that a mostly automated process?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Several examples of high volume US production. But I think most of them are not labor intesive and therefore wouldn't benefit from being done overseas. So I refine my question - What high volume, labor intensive product is built in the US besides cars?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

You mean like spelling the word "the" correctly?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Several examples of high volume US production. But I think most of them are not labor intesive and therefore wouldn't benefit from being done overseas. So I refine my question - What high volume, labor intensive product is built in the US besides cars?

Weapons, of all types.
As previously mentioned, aircraft
Software (although this seems be be more outsourced)
Education (Universities ARE a business and do produce a product)
Agriculture (particularly, preprocessed food and meat products)
Government (Whoops! labor intensive, but you wanted quality, not quantity!)

I understand your point, capital always follows the cheapest labor.

Gary
 
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Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Not exactly sure of your point. I think we may be agreeing. The advantage of cheap labor is lost when you don't make a lot. I've worked at companies that only built a few units a month. No point in going overseas for that.

I think we are agreeing also. Andrew summed up my point in more detail and very well I might add. We should strive to produce the ideas, the design, the prototype through our intellectual capital. Build the products that require the high skill level our labor posseses. The days of mass production of assembly line goods that are not transportion sensitive are over in the U.S. and Europe.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

It's all to maintain the illusion of affluence so people don't realize their economy is being sold out. You can afford all these cheap products that if they were quality, you couldn't afford.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Pretty soon we'll be drowning in the stuff if we don't drink up! :cheers:

Subject: BUYING STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!

If you had purchased $1000.00 of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $49.00.

With Enron, you would have had $16.50 left of the original $1000.00.

With WorldCom, you would have had less than $5.00 left.

If you had purchased $1000 of Delta Air Lines stock you would have $49.00 left

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling REFUND, you would have had $214.00.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle. It's called the 401-Keg Plan.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

It's all to maintain the illusion of affluence so people don't realize their economy is being sold out. You can afford all these cheap products that if they were quality, you couldn't afford.

I agree that many Baby Boomers and others want to "Maintain the illusion of affluence". However, they're not doing it by buying crappy stuff from Walmart. They're over financing McMansions, BMW's, SUV's, boats and vacation homes, until the house of cards fall.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

I agree that many Baby Boomers and others want to "Maintain the illusion of affluence". However, they're not doing it by buying crappy stuff from Walmart. They're over financing McMansions, BMW's, SUV's, boats and vacation homes, until the house of cards fall.

No you don't understand. Find my posts on the New World Order and world economics. It's about the few fooling the many.
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Weapons, of all types.
Security requirements.
As previously mentioned, aircraft
I don't consider aircraft high volume. I'm talking 10's of thousands a year.
Software (although this seems be be more outsourced)
Writing software is labor intensive no doubt. Distributing it, which is where the high volume is - is not.
Agriculture (particularly, preprocessed food and meat products)
Isn't that where most illegal immigrants are employed?
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Remember the Andy Griffith show? Of course you do.
Now, do you remember Emmett the fix-it shop owner. He had a workbench covered in toasters, steam irons and such.

Last year, my father-in-law was over at the house visiting the kids and Mom. he "just happened" to have an out of commision vacuum cleaner in the trunk of his car, and asked if I'd take a look at it. Sure, I say. I set it up on the workbenck, crack open a Diet Coke and start taking it apart. Now, me and him have had our share of diffwerences in the lase 23 years, and I have been through times when I'd barely listen to anything he said, but he came out with something that struck me as pretty profound. He said "You know, If you could make a living just fixing stuff all day that's exactly what you should do. I never see you happier and more engaged in what you're doing than when you're standing here trying to fix broken stuff, figuring out how it works and putting it back together except when you're at the airport, maybe." I realized for the very first time what I wanted to be when I grow up. I wanted to be Emmett the fix-it guy.
Now, what's this got to do with Michael's thread?
Here's how this old high school boy sees it.
<Rant>

Wal-Mart K-Mart, Home Depot, whoever, has made it their mission to feed our addiction for new stuff by making it cheaper and cheaper to fill our houses with cheap, and sadly, throw away stuff. You can't even get a parts list for most stuff nowadays, let alone parts. Big deal, huh. In more ways than one I'd say.

1. Nobody fixes anything anymore. I'm not just talking about toasters either. Look at how the local Ford, BMW or whatever dealer fixes car nowadays. Diagnose with a code scanner, look up the code, throw a part at it and get it out the door. For example, and I speak from painful experience that at least half the time, a "Bad O2 sensor indication is NOT a bad O2 sensor. But the dealers service protocol indicates such, so throw one at it and get the next car in here. You could go on and on about just car repairs, but you get my meaning. Ever had a guy "throw a $300 alternator" on your plane when it really needed a $100 regulator? Guess what, now you got both, no returns on electrical items...

2. People, and especially kids no longer see the value in buying quality items anymore. It's "easier and cheaper"to buy something, and if it breaks, throw it away".

3. The "need" for people who know how to diagnose and understand equipment problems is disappearing. A skillset is going the way of the Do-Do bird and I personally think that we will all suffer for the loss of those skilled people down the street who can help you with that weedeater instead of you having to toss it and run down to the Big Box and get another.

4. The small neighborhood hardware store is suffering along with the handyman. A few years ago Home Depot actually started a pilot program to see if there was a market for a "mini HD" to be placed in neighborhoods where people could get to them without driving all the way to their big stores. Now there's a concept! Kill off the little guys and then point out their value and move back into their market as the new neighbor.
A small example of what I mean follows:
Summer before last it was hotter'n the gatehinges of hell around here. Shutin people were in serious danger without airconditioning or fans. Our church put out a call for fan donations. most people went to (you guessed it) Wal-Mart ot Target and got a new fan and brought it in. The fans were distributed, and we all went away happy. It got my wife to thinking.....Hmmm, Keith can "fix anything" so she started watching the curbsides for fans. To date we have retrieved 8 and fixed (properly) 6 of them and tossed two. Our total cost so far has been $2. Two of the fans just needed to have the cords replaced,with cords salvaged from the throwaways and one had ended up on the curb just because a ribbon from a kid's baloon got in there and wrapped itself around the shaft, stalling the motor. We will be ready for the next hot spell and will deliver those fans as needed. It just kills me when I see the tossaway attitude of people.
I know that there is a time where it's right to say "not worth the time or effort", but my time is my own, and I enjoy fixin' and cleaning, and making stuff work. I just wish I could make a decent living at it.
</RANT>
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Where is it besides vacuum cleaners and mechanics tools? Take the telephone for example, Remember back in the day when you would have your dial phone sitting on the table. You would get up to grab something from across the room, and the phone would fall off the table, slam onto the ground. This was in most cases acceptable, hell I knew the phone was gonna hit the floor before i stepped away from it. But it would always still work. It wouldn't even hang up on you. Now take a look at what our choices are in home phones. Do you honestly think todays phones at whatever price you are willing to spend can take the abuse that we used to dish out? No way. i don't recall my dial phones ever costing more than 30 bucks. goto staples and see what you get for 30 bucks now.
AHH whatever... rant off.

I got 4 phones in a molded package with built in answering machine and speaker phones for so little money I can't remember the price. I'll take that over my last dial-up which was bigger than all 4 of these combined, cost as much or more, and I can throw 3 of the digital phones on the floor to their destruction and still have more machine left to talk on!

I still keep a few of the old dinosaurs in the closet just in case though...
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Isn't that a mostly automated process?

Takes a number of skilled people to set up and maintain all that automation. Not sure that it saved labor, just increased precision (needed with the feature sizes we're producing and developing these days).
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Right on, Keith!
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Good points Keith. I really do hate the cheap, disposable junk that is everywhere now. I hate it. I was in a store today (Hobby Lobby) looking for a jewelry box for a birthday present for my wife, and left with nothing, and pretty disgusted. Everything there is junk. Cheap, fall apart, horribly made junk. I will say that most things that are actually made in the US are good quality...the problem is, so few things are made in the US.

Some appliances are, but manufacturing is moving to foreign markets. A lot of industrial/commercial equipment is still made in the US, because those things have to be made well (electrical distribution equipment, HVAC equipment, quality instrumentation & controls). I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I specify a lot of that stuff for projects I work on.

I'm with you Keith. My daily driver (car) is a '94 Chevy Z28, it has 257,000 miles on it (original engine, and it burns no oil), and it has never, ever been in a mechanic's shop. Still looks decent too.
 
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Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Keith, you're right but there's another aspect to why people don't get things fixed.

Stop by the Sony factory repair center. They have the fixed repair rates right on the sign on the wall. It's a flat $175 to fix a 20" TV that you can buy new right next door for $250 or less. Think getting it fixed is worth it?
 
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Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Weapons, of all types.

Yes and no. . .

I love my Smith & Wessons and Rugers, but you can have anything made by Colt in the past 20 years and use it for a boat anchor. Overseas, I'd chunk my -16 and go scrounge an AK in the early days. In the latter, it was H&K all the way. Never had a problem with Israeli Arms, either.

Benelli makes the fastest firing semi-auto shotgun I've ever fired. When I was testing it for the USMS, I was able to fire six rounds before the empty hull of the first round hit the ground.

Beretta makes one helluva good shotgun, and their Italian-made 92F 9mm is a fine weapon (a design they shamelessly stole from the Brazilians). But again, you can't give me an American-made Beretta.

Had Uncle Robin Hood let me carry my Colt Gov't Series 70, I would've--I like 45ACP. But it is a single-action only handgun and that's a no-no in federal law enforcement work. The Series 80 and later models have the gov't mandated hammer/firing pin magazine-out safety device, which can cost you your life. Pure junk.

We're on even ground firearms-wise with the Europeans.

As previously mentioned, aircraft
Software (although this seems be be more outsourced)

Yeah, but what nationalities are doing the programming and engineering? Japan kicks our butt in innovation for a lot of things software and hardware related.

Education (Universities ARE a business and do produce a product)

Maybe at the collegiate level, but primary and secondary, we suck.

Agriculture (particularly, preprocessed food and meat products)

No excuse not to, not what with our natural resources. But there are countries like Canada and Argentina that are closing the gap fast.

Labor unions have priced themselves out of the realistic market along with government regulators (ala: EPA, OSHA, EOE, etc).

And yet, as a nation, collectively, we not only allow it continue, we MAKE it continue with our apathetic voting record.

-JD
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Yes and no. . .

I love my Smith & Wessons and Rugers, but you can have anything made by Colt in the past 20 years and use it for a boat anchor. Overseas, I'd chunk my -16 and go scrounge an AK in the early days. In the latter, it was H&K all the way. Never had a problem with Israeli Arms, either.

Benelli makes the fastest firing semi-auto shotgun I've ever fired. When I was testing it for the USMS, I was able to fire six rounds before the empty hull of the first round hit the ground.

Beretta makes one helluva good shotgun, and their Italian-made 92F 9mm is a fine weapon (a design they shamelessly stole from the Brazilians). But again, you can't give me an American-made Beretta.

Had Uncle Robin Hood let me carry my Colt Gov't Series 70, I would've--I like 45ACP. But it is a single-action only handgun and that's a no-no in federal law enforcement work. The Series 80 and later models have the gov't mandated hammer/firing pin magazine-out safety device, which can cost you your life. Pure junk.

We're on even ground firearms-wise with the Europeans.

I'll definitely defer to your expertise on this topic, as my experience has been limited to rifles, and to a significantly lesser extent, shotguns. And while I'm far from an expert on the topic (it's a hobby I've been wanting to take back up but time and money have already been allocated to others), my late grand-uncle mentioned many times how after buying his first one way-back-when, he'd never purchase a rifle made by anybody other than Remington. I've never shot anything else (other than various .22s), so take that for whatever it's worth, I guess.

As an aside, one of the things I miss most about my uncle thinking about him now were the lazy fall afternoons of shooting on his farm... And I distinctly recall the day he finally let me shoot one of his two 700's. I don't recall exactly what the first one was (it was his deer rifle and I think it was .270 Win. but I can't remember for sure), but I even more distinctly remember the first time he let me shoot the .300 Win. Magnum... Holy Moses. He got pretty proficient with the latter, and had designs on taking it on a big game hunt in Africa, but he never got the chance. But at any rate, good memories though I often lament the fact that the farm is gone (I'll discuss that below). I digress...

Yeah, but what nationalities are doing the programming and engineering? Japan kicks our butt in innovation for a lot of things software and hardware related.

I'd definitely agree that Asia kicks our collective behind in hardware, but I think the proliferation of software development in China, India and elsewhere in Asia is really more indicative of the trend of farming out more of the "assembly-line" type of software development projects. In this case, just like manufacturing, the emphasis is not on innovation, but rather, simply cost savings. The reality of the matter is that any reasonably skilled developer anywhere really can crank out relatively simple applications and employers simply aren't willing to pay the rate that American developers demand.

The difference, however, is that the development languages and software design practices they use to do the development have been (by and large) created here. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part, programming languages as a whole are a category of innovations that are almost exclusively American. From COBOL and FORTRAN, to Java and .NET, and all the way down to simple HTML, virtually every piece of software written anywhere in the world is written in a language that, generally speaking, was originally created here.

Maybe at the collegiate level, but primary and secondary, we suck.

I agree, but I think that within the last decade and a half or so, colleges have -- generally speaking -- become much more "degree factory" than "institution for higher learning". That's not to say they don't offer excellent educations, about on par with those of other countries; I just get the feeling that many if not most of the recent-college grads I've interviewed and/or worked with of late were there to simply complete the "Get good grades in high school so you can get into a good college so you can get a good job" progression expected of them by their parents or peers or whomever. But I could talk about that for quite a long time, so maybe that's a topic for another thread.

No excuse not to, not what with our natural resources. But there are countries like Canada and Argentina that are closing the gap fast.

Also agree here. I think that has a lot to do with the shrinking amount of farmland in this country... Anecdotally, the area I grew up in used to be seemingly endless farm fields, with some of the most fertile soil in the US. Now, much of that has been replaced with sprawling developments of homes, townhomes, strip malls, movie theaters, etc. etc. I'm not about to condemn that, necessarily, but it is what it is, and our population ain't shrinking.

Labor unions have priced themselves out of the realistic market along with government regulators (ala: EPA, OSHA, EOE, etc).

And yet, as a nation, collectively, we not only allow it continue, we MAKE it continue with our apathetic voting record.

As far as unions go, I do think we'll soon be beginning to see the end of their influence and importance, and having to compete in a global economy probably has a lot to do with that. I think they served a purpose that, over a century ago, has ultimately benefited the US overall, but there's little -- if any -- need left for them.

With regard to regulations, I can certainly understand your beef. I think what's necessary is some sort of balance between freely exercised capitalism and responsible government regulation. But with so much cash being heaved to and fro between lobbyists and government, I doubt that'll ever really happen. Unless that changes somehow, I think we'll be stuck with a constantly swinging pendulum of easing and restricting regulations, which isn't good for anybody on either side.
 
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Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

Benelli makes the fastest firing semi-auto shotgun I've ever fired. When I was testing it for the USMS, I was able to fire six rounds before the empty hull of the first round hit the ground.

Beretta makes one helluva good shotgun

I have the Beretta 1201FP (now out of production) that uses the Benelli recoil semi-auto action. Fun fun fun!!!

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/SH27-E.HTM
 
Re: Quality and Workmanship in th US

I'd definitely agree that Asia kicks our collective behind in hardware, but I think the proliferation of software development in China, India and elsewhere in Asia is really more indicative of the trend of farming out more of the "assembly-line" type of software development projects. In this case, just like manufacturing, the emphasis is not on innovation, but rather, simply cost savings. The reality of the matter is that any reasonably skilled developer anywhere really can crank out relatively simple applications and employers simply aren't willing to pay the rate that American developers demand.

The difference, however, is that the development languages and software design practices they use to do the development have been (by and large) created here. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part, programming languages as a whole are a category of innovations that are almost exclusively American. From COBOL and FORTRAN, to Java and .NET, and all the way down to simple HTML, virtually every piece of software written anywhere in the world is written in a language that, generally speaking, was originally created here.

I see the roles of business-aligned engineering, product engineering, and senior-level software engineering (requiring architecture, business intimacy, and cultural understanding) to be domestic as we move to a multi-tiered global delivery model. In the computer world, these are skillsets that require a level of business acumen and leadership, in addition to education, that we cannot replicate in emerging offshore delivery centers.

You are very correct when it comes to "straightforward" software engineering. Need me to build a series of document translators? I'm doing that in India or Eastern Europe. Need me to build a transactional engine? The high-level work will be done in the US, Europe, and Canada; the low-level work will be done in India and China. How about production support and monitoring? I'll do that in Indonesia or the Philippines.

One of the greatest challenges we have to surmount domestically is the (never waning) domination of mainframe systems in the back office. I have spent the 13 years of my IT career listening to people claim the mainframe is about to die. Colleges have stopped teaching the technologies that run the mainframe, and finding people who are well versed in the skillsets domestically is getting very difficult. However, the Indian university system is still teaching it - with a healthy blend of modern technologies - so we are sending an increasing amount of this work, along with the "migration" work (requiring dual system expertise) to India.

We will lead the way when it comes to innovation - that I can be sure of. On the whole, Indian university graduates are too process-oriented and lack the "free thinker" spirit that is so common in our country. Russian graduates to possess these skills, as do many Western Europeans, but in the "third world", these skills are woefully lacking. You'll notice I haven't mentioned China - their university system produces a wide variety of graduates and they have yet to show strong industrial innovation vision, but I personally believe it won't be too long before we see this.

ReverendSlappy said:
I agree, but I think that within the last decade and a half or so, colleges have -- generally speaking -- become much more "degree factory" than "institution for higher learning". That's not to say they don't offer excellent educations, about on par with those of other countries; I just get the feeling that many if not most of the recent-college grads I've interviewed and/or worked with of late were there to simply complete the "Get good grades in high school so you can get into a good college so you can get a good job" progression expected of them by their parents or peers or whomever. But I could talk about that for quite a long time, so maybe that's a topic for another thread.

Hear hear! Many mid-tier universities are competing for dollars - and are moving more towards a "certificate" ("Hey! I can do this!") versus an degree ("Hmm, I can learn how to do this") system. (A great comparison would be the type of student turned out by HBS or Wharton compared with Fuqua or UMass).

I see the difference constantly in my profession. Working in executive consulting, I work with graduates of our nations military academies and highest-end schools (power universities and liberal arts schools). The intellectual power many of these people bring to the table is staggering - and their intrinsic dynamism is unparalleled.

State and mid range schools used to have a very similar, "academic" vision. However, they have migrated to a more "professional" vision, giving students marketable tools but lacking in the more soft sides of education (the "liberal arts"). While these workers can be very productive initially, they are more likely to follow a set career track and not be dynamic.

Before someone who went to either one of these schools jumps all over me for being too black and white - I realize there is a great deal of gray here. I am state-school college drop out, to give you a frame of reference. I work with kids fresh out of liberal arts school that are more useless than an irrigation ditch in a drought. I work with folks who went to some of the lesser state schools who possess a business acumen and professional dynamism that is simply stunning. However, I'm talking about the averages.

We have created an ideal of white-collar success and in that vision lost some of the "soft" skills required to be successful in any professional endeavor. I do believe this will contribute to the decline in influence of the American worker.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
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