Purchase Question: Aircraft has recent annual

[AggieMike88]

Say an aircraft I'm interested in just very recently completed the annual inspection. My pre-buy inspector says all is good and he doesn't find any show stoppers.

Any value in repeating the annual as part of the purchase process or shortly after completing purchase?

Aircraft is a Cardinal C177 (and yes, I'm reviewing the resources over at CFO).

 

[wabower]

What is the defined scope of work for the pre-buy?

Is it being conducted by the shop that will maintain the plane for you?

Say an aircraft I'm interested in just very recently completed the annual inspection. My pre-buy inspector says all is good and he doesn't find any show stoppers.

Any value in repeating the annual as part of the purchase process or shortly after completing purchase?

Aircraft is a Cardinal C177 (and yes, I'm reviewing the resources over at CFO).

 

[poadeleted20]

Any value in repeating the annual as part of the purchase process or shortly after completing purchase?

None of which I can think. If the pre-buy was done properly, it would not uncover anything you didn't already know.

 

[markb5900]

What is the defined scope of work for the pre-buy?

Is it being conducted by the shop that will maintain the plane for you?

As said above.
If the pre-buy is being done by a different shop and all seems good. No reason to do another annual.

 

[Clark1961]

An annual inspection is an assessment of airworthy condition. A purchase should generally be based on accepting an aircraft in airworthy condition. Why wouldn't you specify and annual inspection as part of the pre-buy?

 

[Tom-D]

Why wouldn't you specify and annual inspection as part of the pre-buy?

the cost?

 

[comanchepilot]

the cost?

fixing pencil whipped repairs and AD's is gonna cost a heckuva lot more.

Mike - Have a DIFFERENT Mechanic do an annual inspection - no oil change - no parts - no nothing - an INSPECTION to make sure the AD list has actually be done IAW the requirements, that the 337 list looks right for the physical condition of the airplane, and there is nothing that a new set of eyes does not see.

Seriously - an annual in a fixed gear Cardinal should run maybe $900 or so - 10 hours of time for most mechanics will run $750. . . . which is more comprehensive?

Don't miss the avionics either - have an avionics shop do a 91.411/91.413 test to make sure the instruments and everything there works and while they are doing that can check any installed GPS etc to make sure its installed correctly and the firmware is current and still IFR legal . . .

[edit] and it would be best if the mechanic who is doing your maintenance in the future does the work - the reason is that its kind hard for him to 'find stuff' he missed . . . and then expect you to open your wallet for him.

 

[Tom-D]

fixing pencil whipped repairs and AD's is gonna cost a heckuva lot more.

A good pre-buy inspection will show you all that and need not be an annual.

why would you need an A&P-IA to do a pre-buy? why would the second A&P-IA want to relieve the first A&P-IA of the airworthiness liability by signing off the second annual, and picking it up them selves?

 

[Tom-D]

None of which I can think. If the pre-buy was done properly, it would not uncover anything you didn't already know.

You presume the annual was completed correctly. but the second inspection need not be an annual, it simply needs to show a list of discrepancies that tells the buyer the material condition of the aircraft.

 

[BurtM]

An annual inspection is an assessment of airworthy condition. A purchase should generally be based on accepting an aircraft in airworthy condition. Why wouldn't you specify and annual inspection as part of the pre-buy?

A pre-buy inspection should be a deal-breaker review, not an annual.

Burt

 

[Tom-D]

A pre-buy inspection should be a deal-breaker review, not an annual.

Burt

actually a pre-buy is to determine if the aircraft was represented correctly when it was advertised for sale.

You may already know the tires are worn, the engine high time, the paint and interior is trashed. Does that effect the material condition? yes. Does it effect selling price? you bet. Does it effect airworthiness? no.

 

[Clark1961]

the cost?

How is the cost of the annual inspection greater than the cost of a pre-buy that ensures airworthiness? Gotta look at all the same stuff...

 

[Henning]

Say an aircraft I'm interested in just very recently completed the annual inspection. My pre-buy inspector says all is good and he doesn't find any show stoppers.

Any value in repeating the annual as part of the purchase process or shortly after completing purchase?

Aircraft is a Cardinal C177 (and yes, I'm reviewing the resources over at CFO).

Nope, if the annual is current, no need to repeat the legal process, inspect to the level of your comfort and fly off with your new plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

You presume the annual was completed correctly. but the second inspection need not be an annual, it simply needs to show a list of discrepancies that tells the buyer the material condition of the aircraft.

No, I presume the pre-buy was done correctly, in which case an additional annuals is superfluous. If the first annual was not done correctly, absent outright fraud, the pre-buy should uncover that.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Out of beginners luck, I ended up with the right process and it has all worked out.

When I bought Miss Piggy, she had just been annualed by the owner two months previously. I was nervous about the seller being the IA and not knowing him from Adam. I had the pre buy down by my local IA who I also didn't know from Adam, but he would be the IA doing the annual unless something changed along the way.

I had the owner fly the plane for inspection just to know he was confident to put his butt in it. The prebuy went well with a few very minor things like a nearly out of date ELT battery.

Fast Forward to annual time and everything went very well and she is in excellent shape. Along the way I have gotten to know my IA very well and have learned alot about his excellent reputation.

I went through all this because I think that having someone do the pre buy who will also do your first annual will add some peace of mind to the Pre Buy.

So Mike? When do I get a ride in the Cardinal?

 

[AggieMike88]

No, I presume the pre-buy was done correctly, in which case an additional annuals is superfluous. If the first annual was not done correctly, absent outright fraud, the pre-buy should uncover that.

This follows what I was thinking but wanted confirmation of.

 

[AggieMike88]

So Mike? When do I get a ride in the Cardinal?

Still very early in process. Only recently reached out to owner to ask for more photos and logbook scans. But I'll trade you. I haven't had that many tail dragger rides yet, but enjoyed each one.

 

[Tom-D]

No, I presume the pre-buy was done correctly, in which case an additional annuals is superfluous. If the first annual was not done correctly, absent outright fraud, the pre-buy should uncover that.

6 of 1, half dozen of the other. we are both saying the second annual is not needed.

 

[Tom-D]

How is the cost of the annual inspection greater than the cost of a pre-buy that ensures airworthiness? Gotta look at all the same stuff...

Not really, airworthiness doesn't care if the radios work, annuals do not require the inspector fly the aircraft. a pre buy should include both.

What if...... the aircraft being inspected is a A-HB, they don't get annuals?

Pre-purchase inspections are tailored to fit the occasion, annuals are required to follow a check list with a minimum set by the FAA in 43-D

 

[wabower]

Very few weeks go by when I don't see a "freshly-annualled" airplane show up in a local shop for a pre-buy. "Down-right scary" is the most-applicable term for the condition of a high percentage these cream-puffs, and it's difficult to determine whether the shops that signed off the annuals were crooked, inept or simply had a somewhat-cozy relationship with the prior owner. If the only risk is that a prospective purchase may be somewhat over-inspected within a reasonable amount of incremental cost, the rewards can be dramatic.

The most-repeated mistake is to assume that an annual inspection performed by a shop for an existing owner-customer will be done to the standards of a non-biased pre-buy performed by an independent shop with a "fresh set of eyes" mentality. That doesn't mean that all the discrepancies noted by the pre-buy shop will necessarily be airworthiness issues, but does
mean that the prospective owner will have a much better idea of the issues he will face as the next check-writer.

No, I presume the pre-buy was done correctly, in which case an additional annuals is superfluous. If the first annual was not done correctly, absent outright fraud, the pre-buy should uncover that.

 

[Tom-D]

Very few weeks go by when I don't see a "freshly-annualled" airplane show up in a local shop for a pre-buy. "Down-right scary" is the most-applicable term for the condition of a high percentage these cream-puffs, and it's difficult to determine whether the shops that signed off the annuals were crooked, inept or simply had a somewhat-cozy relationship with the prior owner. If the only risk is that a prospective purchase may be somewhat over-inspected within a reasonable amount of incremental cost, the rewards can be dramatic.

The most-repeated mistake is to assume that an annual inspection performed by a shop for an existing owner-customer will be done to the standards of a non-biased pre-buy performed by an independent shop with a "fresh set of eyes" mentality. That doesn't mean that all the discrepancies noted by the pre-buy shop will necessarily be airworthiness issues, but does
mean that the prospective owner will have a much better idea of the issues he will face as the next check-writer.

The concept you just described is the reason the first annual uncovers the discrepancies they do.

Each inspectors have their own concepts of airworthiness.

 

[wabower]

To the contrary, the only value to the first annual (if done by somebody other than the shop that will maintain it for the new owner) is to allow the plane to be flown for test flight and delivery to the pre-buy shop without the necessity of a ferry permit.

A pre-buy inspection can include whatever scope of work the buyer elects to perform. For that reason, the contract that I use includes "at buyer's sole discretion."

I don't care how the previous owner and/or his shop maintained the plane or what they considered as airworthy. The only opinion that matters on a go-forward basis is that of the shop that will maintain it for me.

The concept you just described is the reason the first annual uncovers the discrepancies they do.

Each inspectors have their own concepts of airworthiness.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Still very early in process. Only recently reached out to owner to ask for more photos and logbook scans. But I'll trade you. I haven't had that many tail dragger rides yet, but enjoyed each one.

It's a deal!

Good luck with the purchase!

 

[flyer]

Very few weeks go by when I don't see a "freshly-annualled" airplane show up in a local shop for a pre-buy. "Down-right scary"

I agree, ive seen a number of "fresh annual with sale" planes come into my shop and the new owners unhappy when they find out the plane hasnt had any care or maintenance for years and needs thousands of dollars worth of repairs to make it airworthy.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ever tell you about the guy who bought a freshly annualed airplane that turned out to have unlogged spit-and-bubblegum repairs of an unreported gear-up landing?

 

[Old Geek]

Ever tell you about the guy who bought a freshly annualed airplane that turned out to have unlogged spit-and-bubblegum repairs of an unreported gear-up landing?

My brother-in-law has a 172 in his hanger. It's been sitting in the hanger for a year with it's wings on the ground next to it. He bought it with a clean annual and a clean pre-buy inspection. He took it to another shop for his second annual and found out it had been in an accident, with the wings replaced with a set off of another plane that had also been in an accident. The replacement wings were not authorized replacements for his aircraft. Much legal sabre-rattling and zero flying has ensued.

 

[wabower]

At least one of them lives here and flies an A-36.

Ever tell you about the guy who bought a freshly annualed airplane that turned out to have unlogged spit-and-bubblegum repairs of an unreported gear-up landing?

 

[AggieMike88]

Some good discussion here. Helping me to establish how I would ask for a pre-buy to be done.

Keep it coming folks.

 

[flyer]

Some good discussion here. Helping me to establish how I would ask for a pre-buy to be done.

Keep it coming folks.

One case comes to mind that I ran across once, A guy had just bought a 172 and brought it in for a annual and I noticed it had a incorrect prop on it, and after further investigation I find out it had a undocumented prop strike.

The previous owner who was a A&P had a prop strike and just stuck another prop on it and sold it. Needless to say the new owner wasnt happy when he found out he needed a prop strike inspection on the engine.

 

[AggieMike88]

One case comes to mind that I ran across once, A guy had just bought a 172 and brought it in for a annual and I noticed it had a incorrect prop on it, and after further investigation I find out it had a undocumented prop strike.

The previous owner who was a A&P had a prop strike and just stuck another prop on it and sold it. Needless to say the new owner wasnt happy when he found out he needed a prop strike inspection on the engine.

This makes a definite case to use an A&P/IA who is very familiar with the aircraft in question so that inconsistencies like this are quickly discovered.

 

[wabower]

Internet stories are nice, but if you're really contacting sellers for details about specific airplanes for sale with intent to buy one, your priority should be the selection of the shop you're going to use if/when you find the right one. He/she is the person that you will rely on when the chips are down and you need to have that square filled well in advance.

This makes a definite case to use an A&P/IA who is very familiar with the aircraft in question so that inconsistencies like this are quickly discovered.

 

[frfly172]

In the past I have had my mechanic consult with the mechanic doing the pre buy.Always from a shop that has not worked on the aircraft.Works well if aircraft is not local,also I would prefer my mechanic do the next annual.

 

[EppyGA]

report.myairplane.com

 

[wabower]

OK for general information if accuracy of content regarding your specific airplane isn't all that important to you.

report.myairplane.com