Purchase agreement signed

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onwards
So for the third time in the past year, I have engaged in the process of attempting to acquire an airplane. The last two did not pan out after prebuy, but I have a feeling this one will turn out just fine.

Money is on its way to escrow. Prebuy should be complete by end of day Monday. Wish me luck or make fun of me depending on your view of ownership - I may soon be joining the lamenting horde of GA plane owners!
 
And the other important part!! Pikchures!!
 
It's on old Cherokee Six 300.

I won't share pictures yet, not until after the prebuy is finished Monday. And I will be doing some work on the interior and exterior before I ever pick her up, so will end up with before and after pictures even before I even fly her for the first time.
 
Been there, had one! Great plane, congrats.

I miss the long, long nose on that bird sometimes and that monster 2 blade prop in front. Looking in back at all that space, knowing I can load it up whenever I want.

Enjoy, wonderful bird can't wait to see some pics:yes:
 
It'll sure haul a load and they pass me! (at low altitudes)

Good luck with the pre-buy.
 
Pre-buy inspection? Purchase agreement? Escrowed funds?

I assume you realize that you're setting the bar much higher than normal. What on earth possessed you to do it right?:D
 
wabower said:
Pre-buy inspection? Purchase agreement? Escrowed funds?

I assume you realize that you're setting the bar much higher than normal. What on earth possessed you to do it right?:D
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Other people's stories.

And mine, this past year.

I was in contract twice, and had a couple others in the "about to sign paperwork" stage. On one notable occasion, the plane looked great, but we sniffed around the airfield and found a mechanic that had worked on it up to about a year before. Talked him up, and he ended up saying "I would not never get on that plane, not even as a passenger. The owner had been cutting corners for a while, and the turbo is going to fail catastrophically soon, most likely on takeoff". Needless to say, once we knew what to look for, it was easy to confirm during prebuy. I pulled out.

Another plane turned out to have had a major prior issue, undisclosed by the seller, came up on the 337 search.

It's a big purchase, and it's my first time. I don't want to screw it up, and while there are never any guarantees, I am trying my best to do as much as possible to figure things out. This plane needs some work - the interior is nasty (except the seats, they are new), it will probably need repainting at some point (although it's not terrible), and so on. I just had my guy go to the airfield today and poke around the plane and give me his impressions and take pictures and send them to me - MY pictures, not the ones the seller sent. So I know what I'm buying. I like to be thorough :yes: and it also means I could negotiate the price properly to account for these things.

I guess it's odd that I won't even see it in person until well after the acquisition. I will have multiple people getting it ready - my agent, the mechanic, the carpet guy, the detailing guy, and so on - so that when I first climb in, it will FEEL fresh and new and look lovely and be a real pleasure to fly home. OK, I know I'm weird.

And I also know other stuff that makes me optimistic. I already have independent validation that the engine and prop are practically new (<200hr on both, and in tiptop shape), it has a solid panel with 430 and 340, and from all anyone can tell, is rust free and solid. Good bones, if you will. So chances are good this plane will end up mine. And if not... hey, I'm becoming an old hand at the buying process, I'm sure to eventually end up with something. Right?
 
Ron Levy said:
One of the most practical airplanes ever built. Enjoy!
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:yeahthat:

Six seats for good sized adults, loads of luggage, faster than most initial trainers, and fixed gear to help with the insurance premiums. The Cherokee Six is my favorite single-engine aircraft (that is affordable by us mortals). They also appear to hold their value the best of any small GA plane I know.
 
Good stories, you should make them available to the GA publications. Good luck with the transaction, hope everything goes smoothly.

PS: You're stronger than I am. I couldn't have pulled the trigger without laying eyes on it at least once. :wink2:

onwards said:
Other people's stories.

And mine, this past year.

I was in contract twice, and had a couple others in the "about to sign paperwork" stage. On one notable occasion, the plane looked great, but we sniffed around the airfield and found a mechanic that had worked on it up to about a year before. Talked him up, and he ended up saying "I would not never get on that plane, not even as a passenger. The owner had been cutting corners for a while, and the turbo is going to fail catastrophically soon, most likely on takeoff". Needless to say, once we knew what to look for, it was easy to confirm during prebuy. I pulled out.

Another plane turned out to have had a major prior issue, undisclosed by the seller, came up on the 337 search.

It's a big purchase, and it's my first time. I don't want to screw it up, and while there are never any guarantees, I am trying my best to do as much as possible to figure things out. This plane needs some work - the interior is nasty (except the seats, they are new), it will probably need repainting at some point (although it's not terrible), and so on. I just had my guy go to the airfield today and poke around the plane and give me his impressions and take pictures and send them to me - MY pictures, not the ones the seller sent. So I know what I'm buying. I like to be thorough :yes: and it also means I could negotiate the price properly to account for these things.

I guess it's odd that I won't even see it in person until well after the acquisition. I will have multiple people getting it ready - my agent, the mechanic, the carpet guy, the detailing guy, and so on - so that when I first climb in, it will FEEL fresh and new and look lovely and be a real pleasure to fly home. OK, I know I'm weird.

And I also know other stuff that makes me optimistic. I already have independent validation that the engine and prop are practically new (<200hr on both, and in tiptop shape), it has a solid panel with 430 and 340, and from all anyone can tell, is rust free and solid. Good bones, if you will. So chances are good this plane will end up mine. And if not... hey, I'm becoming an old hand at the buying process, I'm sure to eventually end up with something. Right?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Good stories, you should make them available to the GA publications. Good luck with the transaction, hope everything goes smoothly.
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Thank you. I hope so too. If not, this would have been a premature posting, and who wants that, right? :wink2:

wabower said:
PS: You're stronger than I am. I couldn't have pulled the trigger without laying eyes on it at least once. :wink2:
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Oh, I dunno. My perspective is this: I am paying people who know much better than me to look the plane up an make sure it's solid. And I really want it to be in nice shape when I first see it post-purchase so that I can fall in love. So it serves my purpose to stay away until it's ready for me to fly it. I said I was odd!
 
a prebuy is always good, make sure you are comfortable with the guy you get to do it. in my 20 years in aviation maint. I've seen more than one mechanic come in to do a pre-buy who just looked at the log book, and then shot the breeze for a couple hours, never dug into the airframe, did a compression, engine run etc.
I've worked on more than one aircraft that was seeing its first insp. after purchase and realized the owner was in for some bad news.
I've also worked at shops that intentionally got the dates to have the airplane open for a pre-buy wrong, so the guy coming for the inspection, got there in time to find the panels all closed and the shop not wanting to reopen stuff for labor reasons.
I did the pre-buy inspection for the airline I work for recently, I worked for the guy we were buying the plane from before, so I knew what I was dealing with and warned my boss ahead of time. I took two weeks, one just to open everything and inspect it myself, as the sellers mechanics were all "too busy", then I had a team of mechanics from my employer sent up to take care of everything needed to put the plane on our certificate. I actually ended up punching the clock for my old boss on some of it, but the aircraft made it through the FAA check with no issues.
make sure you get details and pictures from the Mech doing the pre-buy, that prove they really know the details.
 
I opted, no actually insisted that the shop I hired for the pre-purchase allow me to assist. I am very mechanically inclined but as a renter I had never had a chance to see any of the inner workings of an airplane. It was great to have that experience and the A&P was great to explain things and involve me. I really felt (also a first time owner) I learned a huge amount about the airplane I ended up buying and flying.

If there is anyway you can do that, the time invested will pay huge dividends.
 
tmyers said:
I opted, no actually insisted that the shop I hired for the pre-purchase allow me to assist. I am very mechanically inclined but as a renter I had never had a chance to see any of the inner workings of an airplane. It was great to have that experience and the A&P was great to explain things and involve me. I really felt (also a first time owner) I learned a huge amount about the airplane I ended up buying and flying.

If there is anyway you can do that, the time invested will pay huge dividends.
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I wish I could, but unfortunately, my schedule is crammed real tight right now. However, I WILL schedule time to accompany the next annual, precisely because of this reason.
 
wabower said:
Good stories, you should make them available to the GA publications.
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I'd be happy to do that, but have no idea how to go about it. I'll say this: if any GA publication is interested in my stories (I have plenty), I'm happy to share them.

wabower said:
Good luck with the transaction, hope everything goes smoothly.
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Thank you! Monday is the critical day... I'll know Monday night whether it's a go or no!
 
Apache123 said:
Six seats for good sized adults, loads of luggage, faster than most initial trainers, and fixed gear to help with the insurance premiums. The Cherokee Six is my favorite single-engine aircraft (that is affordable by us mortals). They also appear to hold their value the best of any small GA plane I know.
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Don't forget relatively cheap maintenance... from all I can tell at this point, they run about the same as a fixed-gear 182, which really aren't that bad to own. Also these things seem almost indestructible.
 
I would love to have a 6, always wanted problem is 95% of my flying is just 2 of us. To bad you don't live close. I'd work a deal for you to borrow the Turbo 250 Comanche when you flew 3 or less and once in a while borrow the 6 when I had 4+. That would be the perfect club in my opinion. Maybe throw a mogas Cherokee 140 Or 140 Cessna tail dragger to round out the cheap flying.

Thing is that 300 hp burns up to 16/17 gph to get close to 145-47 knots and I can go 175 knots for 14.2 gph. So there is a real trade off for me. Flights that I can slow down and enjoy the scenery and go 140 knots or so I can get it down to 10-11 gph with 1000 lbs useful load.

I love the Cherokee six, no landing gear issues, all that landscape in the back makes for comfy travels.

Good Luck my friend. Hope to see you at a fly in some day.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I would love to have a 6, always wanted problem is 95% of my flying is just 2 of us. To bad you don't live close. I'd work a deal for you to borrow the Turbo 250 Comanche when you flew 3 or less and once in a while borrow the 6 when I had 4+. That would be the perfect club in my opinion. Maybe throw a mogas Cherokee 140 Or 140 Cessna tail dragger to round out the cheap flying.

Thing is that 300 hp burns up to 16/17 gph to get close to 145-47 knots and I can go 175 knots for 14.2 gph. So there is a real trade off for me. Flights that I can slow down and enjoy the scenery and go 140 knots or so I can get it down to 10-11 gph with 1000 lbs useful load.

I love the Cherokee six, no landing gear issues, all that landscape in the back makes for comfy travels.

Good Luck my friend. Hope to see you at a fly in some day.
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I would SO go for that deal. That was the main reason I was looking at A36s at the same time - but of course, you pay for the speed. The extra cost of gas is there, true, but I can fly a C6 at about 130kt at 13 or so, which seems like a reasonable compromise for the hauling capacity.

Truth is, like I mention above, I would buy a 4-seater if I could rent a 6-seater. But the latter are simply not there, due to liability issues, and when they are, they cost a LOT to rent (there is a 6x I can rent in an airport about 60m away that costs ~$300/hr - and that's about it. Oh, and I have to join CAP to be eligible).

And I do intent to buy and install the wing kit from Laminar Flow systems, which from the testimonials I found online (forum discussions) should give about a 5% increase in speed and similar decrease in fuel burn.
 
I've heard from 12-15 knots for the wow cowl but its $27k stc.

Now, I would just buy it and fly it. save the money for maintenance and fuel.

You will love it. even 10 mph doesn't make Squanto in time difference on most trips. if you figure door to door....your house to any place you factor the drive, the flight planning, the walk around and run up and plus or minus 20 minutes on a 2 hr flight is not even consequential. Once or three times a year when you fly 1500 miles it makes 2 hrs difference, so what....we bought planes because we love to fly so enjoy the trip. I'm just jealous. :)
 
I would love to buy myself a fast 2 person + bags airplane if I could join a club or something and be able to fly a Cherokee six when I needed the extra seating.
 
cowman said:
I would love to buy myself a fast 2 person + bags airplane if I could join a club or something and be able to fly a Cherokee six when I needed the extra seating.
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I'm with you. However, at least around here, I could not find a club that had one. I don't mind actually *forming* one on the basis of my (presumed) C6 and other people's planes - could be a neat idea - but I have no clue how to go about it, and what it would take.
 
I had the perfect mogas, no maintenance, low maintenance plane that carried 933 lbs useful load 130 mph for 5 hrs 50 minutes.

But I thought I needed to go fast because I would take 1500 miles trips that were 11 and 12 hrs. Now they still take 7 hrs but I do not fly the local hamburgar flyins as much....
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I had the perfect mogas, no maintenance, low maintenance plane that carried 933 lbs useful load 130 mph for 5 hrs 50 minutes.

But I thought I needed to go fast because I would take 1500 miles trips that were 11 and 12 hrs. Now they still take 7 hrs but I do not fly the local hamburgar flyins as much....
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Heh.

Well, I DO have a 1500 mile trip on the books already... even at 160mph, it's a ten hour one. But I'll have 3-4 of my buddies with me and it should be fun - and with the C6, comfortable.
 
onwards said:
I'm with you. However, at least around here, I could not find a club that had one. I don't mind actually *forming* one on the basis of my (presumed) C6 and other people's planes - could be a neat idea - but I have no clue how to go about it, and what it would take.
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I'm guessing you're going to burn a lot of 100LL in the next few weeks after you buy this plane, but once the newness wears off, you might consider a simple non-equity partnership with a few other pilots.

Step 1 - find an ideal partner(s) based on:

Usage patterns (how many weekends they want to fly per month, weekdays)

Decent pilot, will fly the plane properly, won't prang it and has a basic understanding of engine mgmt and will run the plane how you specify.

Responsible and Clean, won't leave trash in the plane, will get the bugs off the leading edge and windshield after they fly.

The non-equity works like this

Work out an agreement regarding usage. Use google calendar or something.

Put the other partners on your insurance as named insured pilots. Get good insurance and have the piece of mind that comes with that. Insurance companies will break the costs down by each pilot's experience level so you can figure out what everyone's share is.

Everyone splits the fixed costs like hangar and insurance. Each partner writes you a check every month for this fixed amount PLUS an hourly dry rate for however many hours they put on the plane. The hourly rate covers maintenance and engine overhaul reserve. As a guess it will be around $40/hr. Pilots pay for their own gas and leave the plane to tabs after each time they fly it.

This way you remain the sole owner, you basically just let your partners rent from you. I've done this with two different airplane owners so far, and it has worked out well for both me/the owners. The plane gets flown a lot, and the owner gets a big help with the operating expenses.
 
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Interesting. Thank you dell30rb.
 
I was primary care giver to my Grand baby for 2 years so my flying curtailed a bit and I wouldn't have it any other way as she is a privilege and delight.

But my personal flying went to almost nothing. I decided to do the non equity partner thing.

Since I could have up to 4 pilots on my insurance including me for about $1700 per year $60k hull it made it possible. So I found 3 guys that paid $250 per month. That $750 per month or about $9k a year went into an account which paid the annual inspection, maintenance through out the year, hangar rent and Insurance.

So the plane cost me absolutely nothing for 2 years. My contribution was the cost of the air plane. There were no limits on how many hours they could fly nor minimum hours to take it out of town but we had a small $20 per hour maintenance reserve on top and they paid their own fuel.

It worked out really well. Those three guys were able to get about 30-50 hrs a year in a High performance complex air plane without buying one. None are available for rent around here.

My guess is since this is your new baby you won't want to consider it but if you slow down flying in a few years, keep it in mind.
 
onwards said:
I'm with you. However, at least around here, I could not find a club that had one. I don't mind actually *forming* one on the basis of my (presumed) C6 and other people's planes - could be a neat idea - but I have no clue how to go about it, and what it would take.
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Depending on the cost of a 100hr inspection it may be easier to 'rent' the plane to a few people you trust and keep them on the insurance for a fee. I remember hearing that the insurance cost is based on least experienced pilot, so it may not add much cost depending on who it is.

A friends mooney has a clause that any pilot with 250TT and 25 in type is insured when they fly. (I can get details if you want)


I flew a 6-300 for the first time a couple weeks ago and it was great. Seeing that fuel flow around 20 in the climb shocked me at first, but at least you can carry twice the load of a 172 or similar.
 
onwards said:
Heh.

Well, I DO have a 1500 mile trip on the books already... even at 160mph, it's a ten hour one. But I'll have 3-4 of my buddies with me and it should be fun - and with the C6, comfortable for about an hour and tolerable thereafter..
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FTFY:D
 
Mike5250 said:
A friends mooney has a clause that any pilot with 250TT and 25 in type is insured when they fly. (I can get details if you want)
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That's called an open pilot clause. If you have one, and your pilots meet the requirement, you are good to go. The devil is in the details though. You are covered as the owner if something happens while they are flying the plane, however, they are not. What might happen, is if another pilot prangs the plane, the insurance company will reimburse you for the damage, then depending on circumstances may try and get their money back from the pilot who wrecked the airplane.

In that circumstance, the other pilots can buy their own non-owned insurance policies (aka renter's insurance) which is usually not too expensive (maybe $200-500/yr depending on hull value and experience) which will protect them should your insurance company try and come after them for damages. If they rent aircraft, they might already have one of these policies which would cover them in your airplane (make sure they have enough hull coverage though, if they are renting an old 172 thy might have only bought 30k worth of coverage etc...)

If you are going to let someone fly your plane sporadically, the open pilot clause might be the best situation. However, if you are doing a more regular partnership with someone who will be putting several hours a month on the C6, putting the pilot on your insurance policy is likely going to be the least expensive option for both of you. You can get quotes for both routes and decide.
 
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It's actually an open warranty clause. The real difference is that if you accept a pilot's word that he meets the qualifications to fly your plane, the insurance company is out of the loop and the burden of proof is on you in the event that something gets bent. If the insurance company extends coverage, you're off the hook.

dell30rb said:
That's called an open pilot claus e. If you have one, and your pilots meet the requirement, you are good to go. The devil is in the details though. You are covered as the owner if something happens while they are flying the plane, however, they are not. What might happen, is if another pilot prangs the plane, the insurance company will reimburse you for the damage, then depending on circumstances may try and get their money back from the pilot who wrecked the airplane.

In that circumstance, the other pilots can buy their own non-owned insurance policies (aka renter's insurance) which is usually not too expensive (maybe $200-500/yr depending on hull value and experience) which will protect them should your insurance company try and come after them for damages. If they rent aircraft, they might already have one of these policies which would cover them in your airplane (make sure they have enough hull coverage though, if they are renting an old 172 thy might have only bought 30k worth of coverage etc...)

If you are going to let someone fly your plane sporadically, the open pilot clause might be the best situation. However, if you are doing a more regular partnership with someone who will be putting several hours a month on the C6, putting the pilot on your insurance policy is likely going to be the least expensive option for both of you. You can get quotes for both routes and decide.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
It's actually an open warranty clause. The real difference is that if you accept a pilot's word that he meets the qualifications to fly your plane, the insurance company is out of the loop and the burden of proof is on you in the event that something gets bent. If the insurance company extends coverage, you're off the hook.
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Ah I meant to suggest that he get copies of their logs.
 
Would his logs show the violation or accident he forgot to mention but that came to light after he pranged your plane?

dell30rb said:
Ah I meant to suggest that he get copies of their logs.
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Alright, so no plane. Prebuy surfaced way too many squawks for me to feel good about the acquisition.

First of all, yes, the engine and prop were in good shape.

But then... here a partial list of things I got from the mechanic, who terminated it midway saying he wouldn't feel safe flying the plane: leaking fuel sump, cracked alternator belt, cracked exhaust pipe at the flange, leaking nose Strut, corroded firewall, really old fluid lines firewall forward, missing battery hardware, and evidence of numerous repairs made all over the body of the aircraft resulting from hard landings. There were other things. It can all be fixed, but it makes this a project plane.

Yet again, the prebuy proves its worth. Next!
 
Wow, sorry to hear that but sounds like you got out of a money pit.

Was this plane "air-worthy" and flying prior to the pre-buy? Sounds bad.

What's next? New plane from factory? :yes:

David
 
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