Pull the power when turning base.

RalphInCA

RalphInCA

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RalphInCA
My instructor is constantly getting on me for carrying too much power through base and final on my landings.

Next time we go up, on Friday, he wants me to pull power to idle when I turn base, and then add back if I end up below glide slope.

We will try it and see. He's probably right, he's a crusty old guy, but he knows his stuff.
 
Probably depends on the plane to a certain extent. Most trainers probably glide well, but if I pulled power in the arrow while turning base, I may not make it to the runway.
 
My instructor had me do that for a whole day

It's pretty awesome. Not sure of many planes that sink faster then a 235 when the power is pulled but I managed just fine. So will you.
 
You ABSOLUTELY should be able to make the runway if you pull power on base in a 172, at least with flaps up. If you can't, your pattern is way too big or you're way too low on base.

It might be close if you pulled power abeam the numbers and flew a normal pattern.

Remember, best glide in a 172 is 65 with the flaps up.

The usual problem with a power-off 180 in a 172 is ending up at 500 feet on short final….
 
thehulk06 said:
My instructor had me do that for a whole day

It's pretty awesome. Not sure of many planes that sink faster then a 235 when the power is pulled but I managed just fine. So will you.
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Downwind to base, most planes should make it on the diagonal. But by definition, if you're really on a stabilized partial power approach and pull the power at base to final, you ain't makin' it.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Downwind to base, most planes should make it on the diagonal. But by definition, if you're really on a stabilized partial power approach and pull the power at base to final, you ain't makin' it.
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Unless you yank the flaps up and push the nose down to maintain best glide.

On base, you're trying to slow the airplane down with a partial power approach and flaps halfway down. Don't do that and you'll make it just fine.

And most people fly base and the first half of final faster than best glide.
 
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MAKG1 said:
You ABSOLUTELY should be able to make the runway if you pull power on base in a 172, at least with flaps up. If you can't, your pattern is way too big or you're way too low on base.

It might be close if you pulled power abeam the numbers and flew a normal pattern.

Remember, best glide in a 172 is 65 with the flaps up.

The usual problem with a power-off 180 in a 172 is ending up at 500 feet on short final….
Click to expand...

my cfi had me pull power when abeam the numbers, and we used a 172.
 
MAKG1 said:
On base, you're trying to slow the airplane down with a partial power approach and flaps halfway down. Don't do that and you'll make it just fine.
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Well, that's true, I suppose. If I maintain 90-100kts all the way to the base/final turn, I could probably make it IF I sucked up the flaps. Although the gear is still hanging in the breeze.

Something to try.
 
rbridges said:
my cfi had me pull power when abeam the numbers, and we used a 172.
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That is easy as most are still at PA at the numbers downwind. My Mooney makes it just fine in that scenario.
 
RalphInCA said:
My instructor is constantly getting on me for carrying too much power through base and final on my landings.

Next time we go up, on Friday, he wants me to pull power to idle when I turn base, and then add back if I end up below glide slope.

We will try it and see. He's probably right, he's a crusty old guy, but he knows his stuff.
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He is worried you will have too much power, go wide and try to correct by pulling up the nose and stalling.

Try this, at mid base you should be HALF your pattern altitude and at idle power (somewhat dependent on density altitude). You should also have your landing configuration set, that is, flaps and about 1.3 Vso, or about stalling speed plus 30% of that added to it.

If you have those things, you should be able to make the turn to final and land without added power.
 
Which airplane? I know the school I did most of my PPL training with had a guide that contained typical radio calls at the airport as well as recommended speeds, not power settings, for student pilots. Remember that flaps, power, and pitch are all interconnected with the power setting for setting the speed.

The classic Stick & Rudder book advocates "power for altitude and pitch for speed". But it's really both most of the times.

For example, in the cherokee I fly (360 HP engine), the POH has the comment "Adjust power as needed" on both the base & final legs. So I start the downwind at 1800 rpm and 90 kts. By the time I'm on final, I'm at 70-75 kts with appropriate flaps and power. What's appropriate? Whatever works for that approach. No two landings are the same. No two patterns are the same.

The FAA advocates for the Stabilized Approach: A stabilized approach is one in which the pilot establishes and maintains a constant angle glidepath towards a predetermined point on the landing runway. The criteria the airlines use is a bit more detailed:

  • Maintaining a constant-angle glidepath toward a predetermined aiming point on the runway.
  • Maintaining a specified descent rate
  • Maintaining a specified airspeed
    (Generally being slightly above is OK, but below is unacceptable.)
  • Having the aircraft configured for landing (gear, flaps, etc.)
  • All required checklists completed
  • The approach can be maintained with only "small corrections" to pitch, heading, or power.
There are pros & cons to this in relation to our little airplanes. For no other reason than the size of the airplane and lower speeds (e.g. mass, pitch, inertia) we can adjust all the factors easier & faster than the big jets.


Personally, I hate power-off landings if I can avoid it, and I hate being below the glideslope. Too many things can go wrong if I can't get power back - such as landing short of the runway. Very embarassing. Or possibly not being able to do a go-around.
 
If your taught to be able to make the runway from anywhere in the pattern due to engine failure as everyone used to be taught I don't see any problem. If you've been taught the wrong way , that is to do a loooong airliner approach , you'd obviously have a problem. I often watch a bonanza pilot do in close patterns and smooth landings on a 2200 foot runway. I always am amused when someone mentions this is a very short runway or is afraid to land in this distance in a light aircraft. They can't be very capable.
 
RalphInCA said:
My instructor is constantly getting on me for carrying too much power through base and final on my landings.

Next time we go up, on Friday, he wants me to pull power to idle when I turn base, and then add back if I end up below glide slope.

We will try it and see. He's probably right, he's a crusty old guy, but he knows his stuff.
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I was taught to pull power on downwind at the numbers, always worked great and got good at spot landings. Only with CS prop did I learn to carry power. On my plane if I carry any power I'd never land....
 
Jimmy cooper said:
If your taught to be able to make the runway from anywhere in the pattern due to engine failure as everyone used to be taught I don't see any problem. If you've been taught the wrong way , that is to do a loooong airliner approach , you'd obviously have a problem. I often watch a bonanza pilot do in close patterns and smooth landings on a 2200 foot runway. I always am amused when someone mentions this is a very short runway or is afraid to land in this distance in a light aircraft. They can't be very capable.
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More or less, don't know about the upwind after rotation low level though :wink2:

I was taught to pull power abeam when I was a student pilot in the Champ.

If I wanted to I could do the same in the PC12.

I'd say that the pull it abeam the numbers is pretty common and doable in most anything shy of a star fighter or something.
 
CTLSi said:
He is worried you will have too much power, go wide and try to correct by pulling up the nose and stalling.
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I'm not seeing how that can happen.

Too much power gets you further from the stall.

I suspect the issue is that he ends up approaching FAST, and the risk becomes a bounced landing.

Most of the 141 guys like to teach 1500 abeam the numbers in a 172, but I find I sometimes need it less than that, particularly if it's cool.

I trained at a 2400 foot runway, so I don't play games with more airspeed than I really need. And I've seen much bigger airplanes land in that space.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm not seeing how that can happen.

Too much power gets you further from the stall.

I suspect the issue is that he ends up approaching FAST, and the risk becomes a bounced landing.

Most of the 141 guys like to teach 1500 abeam the numbers in a 172, but I find I sometimes need it less than that, particularly if it's cool.

I trained at a 2400 foot runway, so I don't play games with more airspeed than I really need. And I've seen much bigger airplanes land in that space.
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You can stall at any airspeed. The deadmans spiral is the final to base turn, it usually happens when the pilot pulls up the nose in an effort to get back on extended final line after going wide (exceeding CAA).

He didn't describe how his landings eventually happen with the power he is using.

In general, if you are at a 45 to the threshold when you start base turn, and you are at half pattern altitude mid base turn, and you are at 1.3 Vso at base to final, then you will make the runway in a standard landing config without issue.

Sure there are lots of variables including being too far downwind, DA, tail/headwind, xwind all of which may require more power to get over the threshold at 1.3 Vso (or if max flaps speeds at or near stall).
 
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James331 said:
More or less, don't know about the upwind after rotation low level though :wink2:

I was taught to pull power abeam when I was a student pilot in the Champ.

If I wanted to I could do the same in the PC12.

I'd say that the pull it abeam the numbers is pretty common and doable in most anything shy of a star fighter or something.
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Agreed.
 
What RalphinCA doesn't say is his level of flight experience or what misperception, if any, he associates with flying a pattern to arrive to a landing.

I say this because maybe Crusty Old Guy has had it up to here with trying to instill a change of behavior in Ralph, nothing yet has achieved the desired result, so he now turns to a drastic measure of pulling power in a ground reference maneuver. I say 'drastic' because to the less experienced student it may sure seem that way. Sometimes that is necessary to get the student to voluntarily agree to move beyond their comfort zone. Carrying speed into the landing could be a security blanket, or so the student thinks. But that excess speed creates other problems.
 
kujo806 said:
Probably depends on the plane to a certain extent. Most trainers probably glide well, but if I pulled power in the arrow while turning base, I may not make it to the runway.
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Depends on how far off the runway you're flying downwind, and how far you extend that downwind. It can definitely be done.
 
Doesn't matter the airplane, you should be able to land without power, since at some point you may have to do so. If you need power to land your pattern is too big, at least in my own sometimes less than humble opinion.
 
CTLSi said:
You can stall at any airspeed. The deadmans spiral is the final to base turn, it usually happens when the pilot pulls up the nose in an effort to get back on extended final line after going wide (exceeding CAA).
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Yes, you can stall at any airspeed, but the base-to-final stall is not the accelerated stall to which that saying is referring. The conventional cross control stall occurs when the speed degrades below the stall speed. While it's still true that stalls are actually caused by angle of attack and not lack of speed, that's misleading here. You need more angle of attack because you're not making lift with airspeed.

The context is important. If you yank the elevator hard at any airspeed, you can indeed stall it unless you break it first. But the thing to do here is to maintain airspeed.

Angle of attack in a descent is rather difficult for students to see. You can have positive angle of attack with negative pitch angle in a steep descent.
 
steingar said:
Doesn't matter the airplane, you should be able to land without power, since at some point you may have to do so. If you need power to land your pattern is too big, at least in my own sometimes less than humble opinion.
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The Cessna 210, 206, 207 I always carried a bit of power even when lightly loaded. In the 207, anything not under the nose cowl is out of reach in zero thrust.
 
kujo806 said:
Probably depends on the plane to a certain extent. Most trainers probably glide well, but if I pulled power in the arrow while turning base, I may not make it to the runway.
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In that case, your pattern is too big. Fly the pattern as if you're about to lose the engine, if able.

MAKG1 said:
You ABSOLUTELY should be able to make the runway if you pull power on base in a 172, at least with flaps up. If you can't, your pattern is way too big or you're way too low on base.

It might be close if you pulled power abeam the numbers and flew a normal pattern.

Remember, best glide in a 172 is 65 with the flaps up.

The usual problem with a power-off 180 in a 172 is ending up at 500 feet on short final….
Click to expand...
Not all 172's are the same. Throwing numbers around like they're universal does no good.
 
Richard said:
The Cessna 210, 206, 207 I always carried a bit of power even when lightly loaded. In the 207, anything not under the nose cowl is out of reach in zero thrust.
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I got about 50hrs in the sled, quite a few in a U206 and a couple in the 210.

The 210 is the worst engine out plane I have ever flown with gear coming down, the large tail U206 glided just fine and I would often land it without power, more or less same deal with the 207.
 
kujo806 said:
Probably depends on the plane to a certain extent. Most trainers probably glide well, but if I pulled power in the arrow while turning base, I may not make it to the runway.
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Constant speed prop? Are you familiar with the term "flat plate drag"? When you pull a constant speed prop/engine back to idle, you have created an 84" (or whatever your prop diameter is) flat plate bolted to the business end of the crankshaft. Plenty of drag at a time when you might not want it.


Bob Gardner
 
RalphInCA said:
My instructor is constantly getting on me for carrying too much power through base and final on my landings.

Next time we go up, on Friday, he wants me to pull power to idle when I turn base, and then add back if I end up below glide slope.

We will try it and see. He's probably right, he's a crusty old guy, but he knows his stuff.
Click to expand...

Define Crusty old guy. I want to make sure I don't fall in that category. :dunno:
 
Interesting. When I was training to get my PPL in a Diamond Katana (DA20), my instructor had me pull the power abeam the numbers. The DA 20 will pretty much do a full pattern with the engine at idle. I don't remember what I did for the DPE, but I passed..

In the -35, pulling the power while turning base pretty much means you need to immediately point the nose at the end of the runway and forget the flaps...had to do that during the insurance checkout.

My first instructor was a young guy and my current instructor is "well experienced". Both are a big fan of having their students know what to do if the propeller quits turning...message received.
 
Do what you need to do to nail the numbers. If you're coming in too fast, start slowing down earlier.
 
A 172 you can do it, but not in a 180. Well, maybe. But with our light MT up front, it acts like a hammer plate if you pull power. In perfect conditions, I might make it, but it would be more a diagonal approach.

And it depends greatly on the wind.

Good to go practice it and see what you and the plane can do in case the mill ever quit turning to base. :yesnod:
 
Richard said:
What RalphinCA doesn't say is his level of flight experience or what misperception, if any, he associates with flying a pattern to arrive to a landing.

I say this because maybe Crusty Old Guy has had it up to here with trying to instill a change of behavior in Ralph, nothing yet has achieved the desired result, so he now turns to a drastic measure of pulling power in a ground reference maneuver. I say 'drastic' because to the less experienced student it may sure seem that way. Sometimes that is necessary to get the student to voluntarily agree to move beyond their comfort zone. Carrying speed into the landing could be a security blanket, or so the student thinks. But that excess speed creates other problems.
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Is that you Rick ? (CFI at Cable)
 
MAKG1 said:
It really is easier to land an airplane slow.
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One is not apt to believe that until they 1) see if for themselves; 2) Repeatedly; 3) adopt it into their comfort envelope.

Heck, even in the simple C-172N through R, most pilots will burn through short final at or above 70. This even though a safe landing can be made at 40 or so...33, IIRC.
 
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