Proposed Restrictions at San Carlos Airport (SQL)

Dude, your generalizations have you at right angles to reality. You are responding to the wrong problem. The county has been very supportive of this airport, and has created a vibrant environment.

The argument is about a NEW REGIONAL AIRLINE that has chosen that airport as its hub. Think about that for a moment. There aren't many of those, and creating enemies out of supporters is a really stupid tactic.

That airport also boasts a good aviation museum that is actually visited by the wider public, complete with well attended summer camps and various public events. It has a new FBO. It has two restaurants. It's doing just fine and doesn't need your "help." It's not in any danger, except perhaps from overzealous carpetbaggers who don't bother to study the issues at hand.

The "process" you refer to doesn't exist. Well, not until you make it exist.
 
Dude, your generalizations have you at right angles to reality. You are responding to the wrong problem. The county has been very supportive of this airport, and has created a vibrant environment.

The argument is about a NEW REGIONAL AIRLINE that has chosen that airport as its hub. Think about that for a moment. There aren't many of those, and creating enemies out of supporters is a really stupid tactic.

That airport also boasts a good aviation museum that is actually visited by the wider public, complete with well attended summer camps and various public events. It has a new FBO. It has two restaurants. It's doing just fine and doesn't need your "help." It's not in any danger, except perhaps from overzealous carpetbaggers who don't bother to study the issues at hand.

The "process" you refer to doesn't exist. Well, not until you make it exist.

Sounds like a job for the airline's PR people then. They can rent out a room at the local hotel for a presser.

Why hold a public meeting? Airport issues a press release to coincide with the airline's... "It's a public use airport. The airline is operating within their authority to do so and the airport will be enjoying $X in tax revenues which will offset taxpayer expenses."

No point in a meeting at all, and nothing good can come of it.
 
I just heard a much buzzier than normal airplane, which sounded like it was flying the Palo Alto GPS approach over my neighborhood in Mountain View. I'll have to see if I can find out if it was a Pilatus. (It's not something I would want to complain about. I'm just interested in getting an idea of what has the Atherton folks so concerned.)
It turns out that both the PAO and SQL approaches pass over my neighborhood, and based on the LiveATC recording, it was one of the SurfAir flights to SQL, not a plane going to PAO. In this location, they would be descending from 3900 to 2000 MSL.
 
I just don't understand how a PT6 at low power can produce enough noise to even be noticed.
I don't know, but the one I heard Thursday night was rather like a buzz saw, even at the relatively high altitudes of the approach in this location. I expect it would be more annoying at the lower altitudes they would be at over Atherton.

This was the first time I've noticed it though, which leads me to wonder if the claims of how frequent the problem is might have been exaggerated.
 
Sounds like a job for the airline's PR people then. They can rent out a room at the local hotel for a presser.

I don't think the Board of Supervisors controls the airline's PR people.

Why hold a public meeting?

Well, for one thing, California has an open meetings law.

Airport issues a press release to coincide with the airline's... "It's a public use airport. The airline is operating within their authority to do so and the airport will be enjoying $X in tax revenues which will offset taxpayer expenses."

No point in a meeting at all, and nothing good can come of it.

I suspect that the members of the Board of Supervisors might be concerned about the amount of money that rich Atherton residents could donate to opponents in the next election.

Even if they hadn't put this on a meeting agenda, members of the public are allowed to speak about issues that are not on the agenda.
 
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^^ See how public discussion ends up? The above commentary is from pilots. And they're using phrases like "buzz saw" and "annoying". Think the detractors don't read what pilots say about our own stuff?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to pass on that the winning strategy is to shut up about it. Just like a defendant in any other case.

The above is public discussion IN FAVOR, imagine the public discussion generated by a meeting amongst the detractors who now know each other's names, where they all live... Etc.

Play to win or prepare to lose. The loss may not happen today or tomorrow or even this year, but if the place really has a majority of people truly making decisions about the airport on the airport's side, then they should all be speaking factually and very little at all through one PR person trained to write press releases, and that's it. The less attention the better. The less giving any sort of discussion credence, the better.

I'm out. Don't be dumb. One voice, signed document by all. And lots of signatures. Don't play in the whiner's sandbox. You'll only get dirty long-term.
 
^^ See how public discussion ends up? The above commentary is from pilots. And they're using phrases like "buzz saw" and "annoying". Think the detractors don't read what pilots say about our own stuff?

Hogwash. These people have been complaining about this for THREE YEARS, long before I even heard of the issue.

Furthermore, if you had listened to the comments in the meeting, you would know that it was the complainers who brought up the nature of the sound. "Buzzy" or "annoying" may not have been the exact wording they used, but it was words to that effect. I'm just trying to understand what they're complaining about. So now you want to blame it on ME? :rolleyes:

Trying to sweep the issue under the rug is a losing strategy, and it's clear that these people are NOT going to give up on their lobbying efforts.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to pass on that the winning strategy is to shut up about it. Just like a defendant in any other case.

I am unable to convince myself that what works for defendants works in the political arena. Bill Clinton made that mistake and paid serious political consequences for it.

The above is public discussion IN FAVOR, imagine the public discussion generated by a meeting amongst the detractors who now know each other's names, where they all live... Etc.

Play to win or prepare to lose. The loss may not happen today or tomorrow or even this year, but if the place really has a majority of people truly making decisions about the airport on the airport's side, then they should all be speaking factually and very little at all through one PR person trained to write press releases, and that's it. The less attention the better. The less giving any sort of discussion credence, the better.

I'm out. Don't be dumb. One voice, signed document by all. And lots of signatures. Don't play in the whiner's sandbox. You'll only get dirty long-term.

How do you propose that airport supporters stop the Board of Supervisors from putting this issue on their meeting agendas?

Maybe I should just send them copies of your posts and that will convince them. ;)
 
Hogwash. These people have been complaining about this for THREE YEARS, long before I even heard of the issue.

And you think meetings will stop that? LOL...

Furthermore, if you had listened to the comments in the meeting, you would know that it was the complainers who brought up the nature of the sound. "Buzzy" or "annoying" may not have been the exact wording they used, but it was words to that effect. I'm just trying to understand what they're complaining about. So now you want to blame it on ME? :rolleyes:

I didn't blame anyone. I pointed out the comment above by pilots isn't helping your case.

Trying to sweep the issue under the rug is a losing strategy, and it's clear that these people are NOT going to give up on their lobbying efforts.

Two questions: Why? And so what?

I am unable to convince myself that what works for defendants works in the political arena. Bill Clinton made that mistake and paid serious political consequences for it.

Huh. Did he lose his job? Not doing any politics anymore? What consequences?

How do you propose that airport supporters stop the Board of Supervisors from putting this issue on their meeting agendas?

I already said how, send a letter saying essentially, "Not the municipality's jurisdiction.", Signed... Everyone. Unless you're the airline, you're just a spectator anyway. Let the airline professional PR people handle going TO the meeting with a nice letter signed by however many other businesses will put in writing that they support them.

Maybe I should just send them copies of your posts and that will convince them. ;)

You can be as upset with me as you like, it has no bearing on what the FAA or the airport decides. I've seen it before, all the meetings do is give TV stations a reason to broadcast the false debate (because the whole thing isn't anyone's business except the airline, the airport authority, and the FAA) and keep stoking the fire. The more publicity, the more complainers. The more "voluntary compromises" that affect safety, like unrealistic noise abatement procedures that can't be followed 100% of the time, triggering more "outrage", etc.

Let 'em go to court. They'll lose. Just like the idiots complaining at KLMO about the noise of a Twin Otter doing skydive runs, lost. Public debate over it just brought more complainers once it hit the newsies' desks and they started putting on the 5, 6, and 10 o'clock broadcasts.

Reacting, in and of itself, is playing into their hands. It always is. So they've complained for three years? So what?

To use your analogy, people still complain about Clinton... Nothing of consequence happened to him. Didn't slow him down one bit.

I know everyone always wants to "play nice with the neighbors", but when the neighbors are simply wrong, and don't understand how the airport was funded and the mandatory requirement of public use behind that funding, there's very little point in engaging. The airport powers that be can hold meetings until the cows come home.

If they don't have the legal authority to remove the airline, they simply don't. If they do, you go public with how much tax revenue they're going to give up. Tie it to money and jobs, and they're toast.

No point at all showing up at a firefight without a strategy to win it, just to play "supportive spectators".

If the airport tenants are willing to truly be supportive, they hire a PR persona and a lawyer and point them at the defense strategy.

At one local airport the strategy that won was slapping defective property notices on every house that complained. First a special complaint hotline number was recommended to be established, and complaints had to have name, address, and time of day. For accuracy and tracking purposes of course.

Next step... FOIA request for all complainants. And one attorney paid by some folks who could afford to play. "You see, Your Honor, obviously in a full-disclosure real-estate State, if someone is so troubled by all this terrible noise, the house must be listed as defective at that address, and it should be noted for any future buyer in the sales documentation, just how many noise complaints came from this property, so as to protect any potential future buyers, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps it has inadequate construction or insulation to be so close to an operating airport. We can't be sure, but certainly X number of complaints a week indicates a problem there."

Homeowners found themselves taking a significant valuation hit on their "defective" property. Only took a few cases for the Judge to order the complaint line permanently shut down.

Airport authority learned to ignore the calls from certain phone numbers and that was that. All anyone had to do is recommend a "complaint hotline" again, whenever the complaints get too thick in decade long wave patterns, and enough people remember the last time, and just close the meeting and head home without spending any time entertaining the complaints. Airport authority had to release the details of who complained under FOIA, and they wanted nothing to do with it ever again.

Funny how when you punch back really hard (losing big money on a house sale wasn't what the complainers expected, but was justified) the whiners stop whining so hard. You need a few strategists who'll punch, and not coffee talk and endless meetings.

Especially if like you say, they've been complaining for years. Either ignore it, and let them try to sue, and then hit back, or find a way like the above to hit back. Nothing will satisfy them. Never does.

Playing public patty cake just gets media attention and attracts more nuts who didn't know they live near an airport.
 
And you think meetings will stop that? LOL...

I don't think that. I do think that when the Board of Supervisors puts this on the agenda, it would be foolish for pilots not to show up, because the Board members need to be reminded of why the proposed curfews, landing fees, and operations restrictions are a bad idea. Remember, these proposed "solutions" came from county staff.

I didn't blame anyone.

Your little arrows (^ ^ ^) pointed at my post, and you specifically quoted words that I used in that post. What was I supposed to think?

I pointed out the comment above by pilots isn't helping your case.

I don't think comments on this forum have any effect whatsoever on the San Mateo County Board of Supervisors.

Two questions: Why?

Because it doesn't do anything to stop the draconian measures that were proposed by county staff.

And so what?

If the Board of Supervisors are not reminded of the benefits of the airport whenever the issue is on the agenda, it increases the chances that the complainers could succeed in getting the draconian restrictions enacted.

Huh. Did he lose his job? Not doing any politics anymore? What consequences?

If you don't think the whole business distracted him and Congress from more important issues, forget that I brought it up.

I already said how, send a letter saying essentially, "Not the municipality's jurisdiction.", Signed... Everyone.

We're talking about the county Board of Supervisors. The proposed curfew, fees, and operations restrictions are in their jurisdiction as long as they're applied in a non-discriminatory way, because the county owns and operates the airport.

Unless you're the airline, you're just a spectator anyway. Let the airline professional PR people handle going TO the meeting with a nice letter signed by however many other businesses will put in writing that they support them

I don't think it would be a smart idea to assume that an airline is going to protect the interests of the non-airline users of the airport.

You can be as upset with me as you like, it has no bearing on what the FAA or the airport decides.

Don't worry about my emotional state; I enjoy these debates. However, we agree that it's unlikely to have a meaningful effect on the course of events.

I've seen it before, all the meetings do is give TV stations a reason to broadcast the false debate (because the whole thing isn't anyone's business except the airline, the airport authority, and the FAA) and keep stoking the fire.

First, the measures proposed are the business of ALL users of the airport, not just the airline, because they would apply to all users. Second, the county Board of Supervisors is the body that controls the airport; there is no separate "airport authority." Third, when the Board puts curfews, fees, and other restrictions on the agenda, pilots failing to show up would risk creating the impression that nobody objects to them.

The more publicity, the more complainers.

That needs to be weighed against the possibility of the Board of Supervisors getting the impression that nobody minds the draconian measures that were proposed by county staff. I think pilots would be foolish to take that risk.

Let 'em go to court. They'll lose.

Pilots don't have any control over what avenues of redress the complainers choose.

Just like the idiots complaining at KLMO about the noise of a Twin Otter doing skydive runs, lost. Public debate over it just brought more complainers once it hit the newsies' desks and they started putting on the 5, 6, and 10 o'clock broadcasts.

Reacting, in and of itself, is playing into their hands. It always is.

OK, now you have me confused. You're saying that there was enough public debate to bring more complainers, but they still lost. That seems inconsistent with your conclusion.

So they've complained for three years? So what?

I answered this before, but you never addressed it: "I suspect that the members of the Board of Supervisors might be concerned about the amount of money that rich Atherton residents could donate to opponents in the next election."

In addition, being seen as unresponsive to constituent complaints could hurt their reelection prospects with non-rich voters as well.

I know everyone always wants to "play nice with the neighbors", but when the neighbors are simply wrong, and don't understand how the airport was funded and the mandatory requirement of public use behind that funding, there's very little point in engaging. The airport powers that be can hold meetings until the cows come home.

If you don't like going to such meetings, then don't, but I don't think there's any way to stop other pilots from going.

If they don't have the legal authority to remove the airline, they simply don't.

The curfew, fees, and operations restrictions proposed by county staff would apparently apply to all users, and thus appear to meet FAA requirements for non-discrimination between classes of airport users.

If they do, you go public with how much tax revenue they're going to give up. Tie it to money and jobs, and they're toast.

The jobs and other economic impact of the airport was mentioned during the public comments.

No point at all showing up at a firefight without a strategy to win it, just to play "supportive spectators".

It looked to me like there was a strategy to win. It's apparent that you don't like the strategy that was chosen. There were two hours' worth of public comments, most from airport supporters, so the strategy was clearly not just to play supportive spectators.

Furthermore, I don't know how things work where you live, but filling as many seats as possible with pilots has a history of working rather well here in the Bay Area.

If the airport tenants are willing to truly be supportive, they hire a PR persona and a lawyer and point them at the defense strategy.

At one local airport the strategy that won was slapping defective property notices on every house that complained. First a special complaint hotline number was recommended to be established, and complaints had to have name, address, and time of day. For accuracy and tracking purposes of course.

Next step... FOIA request for all complainants. And one attorney paid by some folks who could afford to play. "You see, Your Honor, obviously in a full-disclosure real-estate State, if someone is so troubled by all this terrible noise, the house must be listed as defective at that address, and it should be noted for any future buyer in the sales documentation, just how many noise complaints came from this property, so as to protect any potential future buyers, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps it has inadequate construction or insulation to be so close to an operating airport. We can't be sure, but certainly X number of complaints a week indicates a problem there."

Homeowners found themselves taking a significant valuation hit on their "defective" property.

A similar strategy has been used on the other side of the bay. I never heard what the outcome was.

Only took a few cases for the Judge to order the complaint line permanently shut down.

What was the legal justification for that order?
 
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