Problems with density altitude

alaskaflyer

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
7,544
Location
Smith Valley, Nevada
Display Name

Display name:
Alaskaflyer
Sheesh, the **** density altitude around here is giving us fits lately. The other day at Fairbanks it was minus 7200 feet! Tomorrow if I am able to make the flight I have planned it will likely be around minus 2900 feet.

Do you know what that does to your fuel burn?!?!? :eek: ;)
 
Yeah, but it's nice seeing that IAS way up in the yellow.
 
Sheesh, the **** density altitude around here is giving us fits lately. The other day at Fairbanks it was minus 7200 feet! Tomorrow if I am able to make the flight I have planned it will likely be around minus 2900 feet.

Do you know what that does to your fuel burn?!?!? :eek: ;)

What kind of speed & fuel burn are you getting in that kind of cold?
 
Sheesh, the **** density altitude around here is giving us fits lately. The other day at Fairbanks it was minus 7200 feet!

Should be able to take off in negative runway distance with those numbers.:D
 
ive never heard of that...

is this a mistake or is this actually possible...sorry if this is a stupid question..i might have missed the sarcasm..

Ant

oh and while we are on this subject...
I live close to the ocean so high density altitudes arent something we have to deal with very often..if not ever...
so my home airport is 87 Ft. above sea level..
i notice ALOT that our super unicom will give us the normal report and then at the end it says "caution density altitude 10,000 ft."
So i am wondering if this is actually possible or is my super unicom at my airport a little whacked out??
about 3 years ago when getting checked out with an instructor i heard the unicom say the same thing and he told me to ignore it, because if the density altitude was really 10,000 ft it would be harder to breathe...
Im a skier so i understand what it feels like to breathe in high alts. , but it wasnt like this at the airport..

Ant
 
ive never heard of that...

is this a mistake or is this actually possible...sorry if this is a stupid question..i might have missed the sarcasm..

Ant

oh and while we are on this subject...
I live close to the ocean so high density altitudes arent something we have to deal with very often..if not ever...
so my home airport is 87 Ft. above sea level..
i notice ALOT that our super unicom will give us the normal report and then at the end it says "caution density altitude 10,000 ft."
So i am wondering if this is actually possible or is my super unicom at my airport a little whacked out??
about 3 years ago when getting checked out with an instructor i heard the unicom say the same thing and he told me to ignore it, because if the density altitude was really 10,000 ft it would be harder to breathe...
Im a skier so i understand what it feels like to breathe in high alts. , but it wasnt like this at the airport..

Ant

It isn't a mistake. It gets cold there.

And a 10,000' density altitude at a sea level airport is certainly possible as well. However, the temperature will need to be over 200 degrees F, so I wouldn't recommend flying in those conditions unless you have an air conditioned aircraft. Also, composite aircraft should be grounded in those conditions.;)

Your CFI probably should have used that opportunity to go and do a density altitude calculation to find the true density altitude on that day instead of just making a flip remark. That's a nice pedagogical event that he let slip through his fingers.

Chris
 
Last edited:
is this a mistake or is this actually possible...sorry if this is a stupid question..i might have missed the sarcasm..

It's quite possible to get into the negatives. Close to sea level with very very cold dry air and high pressure would be the extreme case. However, I'd bet we get at least two months of somewhat-below-sea-level DA's at MSN each year.

And Richard is in Alaska. Pretty much takes it to the extreme. In fact, someone posted something sometime this winter about a case in Alaska where the temperature was excessively low and the pressure excessively high at the same time, which resulted in a DA of -14,000 or something like that. You could practically swim in that. ;)

BTW, airplanes fly REALLY well with negative DA's. I need to get the mixture adjusted on the 182 so it's not overly lean in cold weather... I'm still trying to peg the VSI on that thing. Best I've done was 1800fpm sustained. IIRC, that's almost double the "book" climb rate. :goofy:

I live close to the ocean so high density altitudes arent something we have to deal with very often..if not ever...
so my home airport is 87 Ft. above sea level..

If by "deal with" you mean "can't fly," yes... But DA does go up at sea level just like it does everywhere else. In midsummer in WI (where it's "cold" according to some), our DA's are often about 1500-2000 higher than field elevation. You probably won't run out of runway at 2087 DA though. ;)

i notice ALOT that our super unicom will give us the normal report and then at the end it says "caution density altitude 10,000 ft."
So i am wondering if this is actually possible or is my super unicom at my airport a little whacked out??

Yeah, that's whacked. I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS.
 
Kent wrote "I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS."

If I understand your meaning, that no where in ConUs, would you find a DA higher than 3000AGL above actual elevation?

Uh oh... I beg to differ! Go to Leadville, Co. during the summer, on a hot day... Field elevation is 9927', and it's not uncommon to have DA's in the mid- to upper 14's! On occasion, I have actually seen it up in to the 15's!

Needless to say, there are not many aircraft flying around on those days... Even with a 7000' strip, it takes every inch for my 310 to get off on those days! And thats if I'm light!
 
Sheesh, the **** density altitude around here is giving us fits lately. The other day at Fairbanks it was minus 7200 feet! Tomorrow if I am able to make the flight I have planned it will likely be around minus 2900 feet.

Do you know what that does to your fuel burn?!?!? :eek: ;)

Wow! I was impressed when the density altitude at Sault Ste Marie, MI was reported at minus 2800 ft. saturday. 7200 ft is totally incredible. :hairraise:

Barb
 
Kent wrote "I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS."

If I understand your meaning, that no where in ConUs, would you find a DA higher than 3000AGL above actual elevation?

Uh oh... I beg to differ! Go to Leadville, Co. during the summer, on a hot day... Field elevation is 9927', and it's not uncommon to have DA's in the mid- to upper 14's! On occasion, I have actually seen it up in to the 15's!

Wow! Well, I stand corrected. That's still not 10,000 though, so we know that bot is messed up.

I am guessing that DA is not a linear function.
 
BTW, airplanes fly REALLY well with negative DA's.

The plane may fly well, but how 'bout the pilot? :redface:

Gil (Teendoc) and I flew down to Flying W (N14) last month and boy was it freezing outside (Single digit temps with a gusty wind). It was so cold that during pre-flight, the tail tie down lock was frozen shut and it took a good 4 or 5 long squirts of WD-40 (and a good 10+ minutes of fiddling with the thing) to get the lock to un-stick so we could go flying. Brrrrr.
 
The plane may fly well, but how 'bout the pilot? :redface:

Gil (Teendoc) and I flew down to Flying W (N14) last month and boy was it freezing outside (Single digit temps with a gusty wind). It was so cold that during pre-flight, the tail tie down lock was frozen shut and it took a good 4 or 5 long squirts of WD-40 (and a good 10+ minutes of fiddling with the thing) to get the lock to un-stick so we could go flying. Brrrrr.

Yeah, ya need to dress very warm for preflight, and have a good heater in the plane.

Of course, at MSN I can do it the wuss way - The coldest flight I had this winter, I preflighted in the hangar, called the FBO, got in the airplane, shut the door, and let the line guys tow the plane onto the line with me in it. :D :redface: The heater in the 182 is so freakin' hot that it actually melted my IFR Flight File at one point, but it wasn't enough to keep up with the cold on that flight. In fact, it was so cold I was running full rich at 7500 feet! :eek:
 
Yeah, that's whacked. I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS.


Saw almost a 4,000 foot difference at Bryce Canyon in '05. Not sure what the Lake Havasu difference was, but it was 105º when I took off. Take off roll wasn't noticeably different at either place, but when I tried to climb at Bryce, the best I could get was 200fpm. That's what happens when you're 11,400 density altitude with full tanks, and a bunch of gear in the plane. :goofy:
 
ive never heard of that...

is this a mistake or is this actually possible...
Well, here's the current METAR

METAR PAMH 280516Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR M23/M30 A3031 RMK AO1

Per AirNav, the altitude is 678 MSL.

Work it out.

Pressure Altitude is....
Density Altitude is....
 
Yeah, that's whacked. I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS.
Leadville aside, you have heard of Denver before, haven't you? "Mile High City" and all that? There's a significant portion of the ConUS that has elevations above 3000 msl even without considering above standard temperatures.
 
Well, here's the current METAR

METAR PAMH 280516Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR M23/M30 A3031 RMK AO1

Per AirNav, the altitude is 678 MSL.

Work it out.

Pressure Altitude is....
Density Altitude is....
If my brain is working correctly...

4,566 feet Density Altitude... NEGATIVE!

Holy Shiatsu, Batman! :hairraise:
 
after thinking about this...I kinda feel bad for people who live in colorado and areas like this and they dont have a Turbocharged plane...
How do you fly...

I always wonder for people who own warriors and 172's ect ect and they live in high altitude areas...how do they fly with more then themselves in the plane....i had a warrior at 10,000ft MSL and the thing barely wanted to climb anymore...
Are there no low HP normally aspirated planes in these areas or what??

Ant
 
Leadville aside, you have heard of Denver before, haven't you? "Mile High City" and all that? There's a significant portion of the ConUS that has elevations above 3000 msl even without considering above standard temperatures.

Mark,

Read carefully. ;)

Yeah, that's whacked. I doubt you'd get higher than 3000 AGL DA anywhere in the ConUS.

Yes, I'm well aware of our topography. I've *driven* at over 11,000 feet. In fact, the first time I went through the Eisenhower Tunnels, I hadn't flown an airplane as high as I'd driven.
 
Well, here's the current METAR

METAR PAMH 280516Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR M23/M30 A3031 RMK AO1

Per AirNav, the altitude is 678 MSL.

Work it out.

Pressure Altitude is....
Density Altitude is....

What's the formula for DA? I can never find it when I need it. If you google "Density Altitude Formula" you end up getting a zillion java-based DA calculators and no formula. :no:
 
What's the formula for DA? I can never find it when I need it. If you google "Density Altitude Formula" you end up getting a zillion java-based DA calculators and no formula. :no:

The easy way...Use that fancy E6b of yours. Pressure altitude calculated for non-standard temperature.

OR...do it the hard way

density.png


DA = density altitude in feet
P0 = atmospheric (static) pressure
PSL = standard sea level atmospheric pressure (101.325 kPa)
T = true (static) air temperature in Kelvin (K) [add 273.15 to the Celsius (C)] figure
TSL = standard sea level air temperature (288.15 K)
b = 0.235

(courtesy of wikipedia)
 
What kind of speed & fuel burn are you getting in that kind of cold?

Dave-

I will measure more precisely on Friday when I will be taking a cross-country flight (PAFA->PATK) longer than my usual short hops.

On my last long one I was seeing an increase of 2-3 gph at the coldest temps. Coupled with the fact that I was already flying low to stay out of headwinds, it really put my economy in the dumper! But the takeoff and climb was dreamy! Even dragging my wheels through rim deep snow I was getting off in a few hundred feet (with a climb prop.)
 
after thinking about this...I kinda feel bad for people who live in colorado and areas like this and they dont have a Turbocharged plane...
How do you fly...
Knowledge. Don't feel bad for us. We get to fly through some of the most incredible terrain in the US. Certainly HP is great, but I have been up to Leadville on training flights in 180 HP Cessnas and Pipers. Me, I kinda feel bad for people who don't live in Colorado and haven't a clue what they are missing. But I guess ignorance is bliss. ;)
 
Kent - its not just insane places like Leadville. Albuquerque sits at 5840 (KAEG) ft, MSL, and DAs in the summer are frequently over 10K, sometimes even 11K.
 
after thinking about this...I kinda feel bad for people who live in colorado and areas like this and they dont have a Turbocharged plane...
How do you fly...

I always wonder for people who own warriors and 172's ect ect and they live in high altitude areas...how do they fly with more then themselves in the plane....i had a warrior at 10,000ft MSL and the thing barely wanted to climb anymore...
Are there no low HP normally aspirated planes in these areas or what??

Ant

You know, this is kind of one of my pet peeves right now. Not you specifically, but those with a lot of knowledge, living in the flat lands, that say "If you want to fly around the Rockies, a turbo charger is a must."

It simply ain't true. I've had a Cherokee 180 up much, much higher than 10K feet, and while the climb slows down, you can still climb.

Check out Telluride, there are a few low HP normally apsirated planes there, and it sits at over 9K feet.
 
Everyone becomes comfortable in the environment that they have the most experience in...

There are a few parts of my own standard procedures, developed at higher altitude airports, which I have had to modify since moving to sea level. But for following the check lists to the letter each and every flight, I might fall back into a complacent pattern, and do something inappropriate for the conditions.

Many are the time I have heard pilots from rural areas express their dislike or fear of flying into Class C or B airspace.. "It's too crowded" or "I have to use the radio so much more" or even "I'm just not sure what to do".
But as those pilot who use those airspaces know, they are actually quite easy to use... Just do what ATC tells you to do... (within reason)

Flying at altitudes is no different. Yes, you must be even MORE aware of performance factors and weather than you might ordinarily be. But when you fly in that environment regularly, it becomes 'normal'. No less demanding, but familiar.

Of the hundreds of hrs I have spent teaching mtn flying, the majority of them were in what most would believe to be underpowered aircraft.. 160hp and 180hp 172's. For contrary to popular belief- in the mtns, power will get you into more problems then it will get you out of!

And without a doubt, the views can be some of the most incredible sights! If you have never done it, you owe it to yourself to one day try it! You might like it!
 
You just have to respect the density altitude... not fear it. :)
 
You know, this is kind of one of my pet peeves right now. Not you specifically, but those with a lot of knowledge, living in the flat lands, that say "If you want to fly around the Rockies, a turbo charger is a must."
Bear in mind that, whatever their level of sophistication, most people are very provincial and have a difficult time "seeing" things that are outside of their own experience.
 
Knowledge. Don't feel bad for us. We get to fly through some of the most incredible terrain in the US. Certainly HP is great, but I have been up to Leadville on training flights in 180 HP Cessnas and Pipers. Me, I kinda feel bad for people who don't live in Colorado and haven't a clue what they are missing. But I guess ignorance is bliss. ;)
WOW! Wish I'd had that much HP when I went up there...my short-wing Maule has an engine that's rated at 145 hp...with the cruise prop topping out about 2150 RPM on takeoff, that works out to about 110 hp here at 1000-ft elevations. Leadvile, losing another 8" of MP, should leave almost 80 hp available for takeoff!

Considering that, it's amazing that it only took me 1200 feet to get airborne, and another 2000 feet to get out of ground effect (although I DID have to thermal to get up over the ridge to ASE ;)).

Fly safe!

David
 
Of the hundreds of hrs I have spent teaching mtn flying, the majority of them were in what most would believe to be underpowered aircraft.. 160hp and 180hp 172's. For contrary to popular belief- in the mtns, power will get you into more problems then it will get you out of!

!

I think I know what you mean but would like to hear more.

I've flown as much mountains as possible with that power range and in high DA would never had said no to a turbo or more HP.
 
I think I know what you mean but would like to hear more.

I've flown as much mountains as possible with that power range and in high DA would never had said no to a turbo or more HP.

Expecting HP to get them out of situations that they should never have been in in the first place.


The mountains of Alaska are littered with the carcasses of Supercubs, C-185's and even turbine Beavers - not Pacers and C-150's ;)
 
Alaskaflyer has it dead on!

The most deadly issue is speed. A slower aircraft gives you a little bit more time to evaluate situations, make decisions, and execute escapes. There is a HUGE difference between 105/110kts and 145/155kts getting you into trouble, and what it then takes to get you out of it! If you are flying a HP aircraft, then use it accordingly. Get up high to an MEA (16,000' in CO) and go over the mtns. But for those not able to get up to those altitudes, there are still ways to get through the mtns safely.

I have seen the results of 182's (turbo's and non) and other HP aircraft speeding up a valley or box canyon where the end is not visible from the entrance. They finally get to the end and realize it is not the one they had intended on using. Higher speeds require a greater turning radius, and often the distance available is not sufficient.

Monarch Pass (Denver Sectional, 38.30.00N 106.20.00W), just West of KANK, is one of the more treacherous in Colorado, and has had over a half dozen wrecks right on the ski area sitting at the summit. With the pass road at 11,312', the peaks right next to the road go up to 12,867'. I have been through this pass as low as 12,500', but prefer to be at 13,000'. The winds from the West really howl through this particular pass.
The AWOS-3 sitting right on the peak reports altimeter settings of 30.60 and above quite regularly. A calm day is anything under 15kts, but they often reach 60 kts or better. And the OAT can be almost anything from -15C to 25C.

Combinations of the wind and density altitude have created many problems for pilots trying to get through here. They will often try to stay to the right side of the valley as it turns southward, and the falling air just pushes them downward. By the time they manage to stabilize their aircraft, they have lost precious altitude. At that point, the valley also narrows considerably for the last mile or so, just before the pass itself. This further limits the ability of the aircraft to make a successful turn back down valley. The road is too winding to even think of an attempt to land on it, so the option is to put it down where its open, somewhat flat, and has people within a very short distance.

Most seem to make a semi-controlled crash on the lower half of the ski area, but a few have tried to make it over and CFIT on the higher slopes. We will never know how many have actually been successful in getting over the pass after having first gotten into trouble. But the number of those who didn't seems to grow every couple of years.

Tincup (12,154') and Cottonwood (12,126') Passes are the two passes immediately to the North of Monarch. Several aircraft have mistaken them for Monarch, and gotten caught trying to reverse course. If you do make it over either of them, you are in for a big suprise! Big in the form of ranges and peaks in the mid-13's and up into the 14's! There is a narrow valley which heads toward Aspen (ASE), but you are not out of the mtns yet! You must follow that narrow valley NW which brings you in right over the town of Aspen. Your average altitude is still going to be above 11,000'. And trust me- there will be a lot of very close rock much higher than you are. Expect moderate turbulence in this valley, as it is a major wind tunnel!
 
I had the pleasure B) of commanding the "rescue", recovery and investigation of this crash. Turned out to be not much of a rescue. Can you say "too fast for the terrain encountered?"

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=ANC05FA121&rpt=fa

Then there was this one...again I had the opportunity to enjoy the cleanup since there was nothing much else to do.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060921X01372&key=1

Both experienced pilots, both in aircraft that far surpass mine in horsepower.
 
WOW! Wish I'd had that much HP when I went up there...
I know. When I first moved out here I went to Aspen for a conference and figured I'd take a flying lesson with someone who knew what he was doing. I had a choice between a 160 HP and a 180 HP 172 - I chose the 160 figuring it would give me the better lesson.
 
Back
Top