Privatize ATC?

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creweite

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Creweite
I read in the Miami Herald that Donald Trump is in favor of privatization of Air Traffic Control. It that happens I imagine that IFR flight will be subject to the same high charges that folks in Europe have to pay. Let's hope it doesn't happen!!
 
The Canadian model might not be so bad, but I don't see why we can't continue to pay through fuel taxes.

On the other hand, it's hard to find a president in recent decades who hasn't favored privatizing ATC. Congress has been against it, so far, so it hasn't gone anywhere.
 
We have the best aviation system on earth, let's not "fix it" until it isn't.


We don't have many things in this country which really rock, lots of stuff needs fixing in this country, let's just stick to those things.
 
Thank you for calling Take Flight ATC services. As soon as we get your credit card number we will have your landing clearance for you....
 
creweite said:
I read in the Miami Herald that Donald Trump is in favor of privatization of Air Traffic Control. It that happens I imagine that IFR flight will be subject to the same high charges that folks in Europe have to pay. Let's hope it doesn't happen!!
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It would be nice if those calling for privatization of Air Traffic Control would define "privatization" and identify what problems in ATC would be solved by it.
 
wsuffa said:
See how well that worked with USIS and security clearances...
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Lol, I used to work for them, albeit on their commercial side. I left the company about 2 years before that government clearance debacle and was thankful I wasn't around to reap the fallout. The commercial side of USIS still exists, but it's a shell of what it once was.


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alot has been turned over already. many airport towers, and weather brief and ifr and vfr flight plan.L martin does a much better on the weather imo. Government people are usually slugs and get huge benefits and salary.
 
hotprops said:
alot has been turned over already. many airport towers, and weather brief and ifr and vfr flight plan.L martin does a much better on the weather imo. Government people are usually slugs and get huge benefits and salary.
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None of that is AIR traffic control, the separation of airborne traffic.
 
Palmpilot said:
The Canadian model might not be so bad, but I don't see why we can't continue to pay through fuel taxes.
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Do you think that fuel taxes meet the marginal cost of providing the per-trip services to the typical IFR piston-single? Just gut feel, but seems hard to believe.

I appreciate that one can answer "no" to that and still argue that fuel tax is the appropriate mechanism, btw.
 
tiger said:
Do you think that fuel taxes meet the marginal cost of providing the per-trip services to the typical IFR piston-single? Just gut feel, but seems hard to believe.

I appreciate that one can answer "no" to that and still argue that fuel tax is the appropriate mechanism, btw.
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Most aviation groups agree more money is necessary, and are willing to accept a moderate increase in the gas tax. It hasn't been raised in many years, and would be easy to do. Any other use type of fee would require a whole new bureaucracy to charge and collect the new fees, and would be far less efficient.
 
flyingron said:
It worked so well for the post office.
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The Post Office was not privatized. The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 replaced the cabinet-level Post Office Department with the United States Postal Service, an independent agency of the US government.
 
hotprops said:
alot has been turned over already. many airport towers, and weather brief and ifr and vfr flight plan.L martin does a much better on the weather imo. Government people are usually slugs and get huge benefits and salary.
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AFSS does a better job? You must not have had one on the field long ago... those local guys and gals knew our local weather. The kids in Prescott have zero clue. They just read from the script.
 
roncachamp said:
The Post Office was not privatized. The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 replaced the cabinet-level Post Office Department with the United States Postal Service, an independent agency of the US government.
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Which was what they were talking about for the "ATC Corporation" the last time this came up. "Privatization" means different things to different people pushing political agendas.
 
flyingron said:
Which was what they were talking about for the "ATC Corporation" the last time this came up. "Privatization" means different things to different people pushing political agendas.
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So what part of the USPS is non-government? See post #7.
 
denverpilot said:
AFSS does a better job? You must not have had one on the field long ago... those local guys and gals knew our local weather. The kids in Prescott have zero clue. They just read from the script.
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Agree! Used to nice to pop into a FSS on the field and get your brief and file. Used to take my students there for a tour, and as you mentioned Nate, friendly and helpful briefers.
 
flyingron said:
Which was what they were talking about for the "ATC Corporation" the last time this came up. "Privatization" means different things to different people pushing political agendas.
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Privatization shouldn't mean anything different than turning over operational roles and responsibilities to a profit motivated corporation. Usually I'm all for it being that it's the industry I'm in but in this case I don't know what the FAA would be trying to accomplish. Maybe there's a belief that the private sector can accomplish the same task more efficient or have greater fiscal responsibility. Could be they see this as an extension of all the current FAA tasks that are currently privatized; IACRA, WX, ATC Training ect.
 
tiger said:
Do you think that fuel taxes meet the marginal cost of providing the per-trip services to the typical IFR piston-single? Just gut feel, but seems hard to believe.
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I have no idea.

I appreciate that one can answer "no" to that and still argue that fuel tax is the appropriate mechanism, btw.
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Yes, that is my position.
 
mscard88 said:
Agree! Used to nice to pop into a FSS on the field and get your brief and file. Used to take my students there for a tour, and as you mentioned Nate, friendly and helpful briefers.
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But would it still be worth the money to keep them all open? In this case it looks like whoever made the decision to close them did the right thing since almost everyone gets their briefings electronically now. The only reason I used to visit in person was to look at the satellite picture which I couldn't access anywhere else. They would sometimes ask me what the weather was like outside because they didn't have any windows where they sat.
 
Everskyward said:
But would it still be worth the money to keep them all open? In this case it looks like whoever made the decision to close them did the right thing since almost everyone gets their briefings electronically now.
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I think they probably did the right thing as everything has gone internet. Better weather maps too online, as well as a lot of other places to gather info. Just was fun back in the day visiting and interacting with other humans, not so popular these days lol.
 
flyingron said:
It worked so well for the post office.
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Or Amtrak. Though the Northeast Corridor is profitable and carries a lot of traffic, most of the rest of the system is subsidized.

Having said that, I do love train travel & won't fly between DC and NYC (or Boston and NYC). Also have to admit that their iphone app is far better than the airline apps I've used.
 
There are so many ways for this to go through it is difficult to discuss. The last legislation would've created a not for profit government corporation headed by mostly airlines and then a few GA and business aviation chairmen. That doesn't mean the next attempt will be written that way.

Im on the fence about the issue, but I do believe it will eventually go through.
 
OkieAviator said:
Privatization shouldn't mean anything different than turning over operational roles and responsibilities to a profit motivated corporation. Usually I'm all for it being that it's the industry I'm in but in this case I don't know what the FAA would be trying to accomplish. Maybe there's a belief that the private sector can accomplish the same task more efficient or have greater fiscal responsibility. Could be they see this as an extension of all the current FAA tasks that are currently privatized; IACRA, WX, ATC Training ect.
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The government should not be doing any tasks that can be done by the private sector.

Proponents of privatized ATC often claim that competition will keep costs down. But there can be no direct competition in ATC; multiple providers of separation services in the same airspace can only serve their customers, they can't separate their customers from another provider's customers. ATC must be a monopoly. When a monopoly of something in demand is established prices go up; like Mylan and the EpiPen.
 
wsuffa said:
Or Amtrak. Though the Northeast Corridor is profitable and carries a lot of traffic, most of the rest of the system is subsidized.
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Amtrak was the opposite; nationalization of private companies v. privatization of government activities.
 
Seanaldinho said:
There are so many ways for this to go through it is difficult to discuss. The last legislation would've created a not for profit government corporation headed by mostly airlines and then a few GA and business aviation chairmen. That doesn't mean the next attempt will be written that way.
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Which did not identify any problems in ATC that would be solved by the legislation or explain how they would be solved.
 
roncachamp said:
The government should not be doing any tasks that can be done by the private sector.

Proponents of privatized ATC often claim that competition will keep costs down. But there can be no direct competition in ATC; multiple providers of separation services in the same airspace can only serve their customers, they can't separate their customers from another provider's customers. ATC must be a monopoly. When a monopoly of something in demand is established prices go up; like Mylan and the EpiPen.
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That is why there are no contract towers and no well defined boundaries for airspace control amongst the many control centers and approach/departure controls.
 
Everskyward said:
Here is an article which advocates privatization.
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"In recent decades, many nations have partly or fully separated their air traffic control (ATC) systems from their governments."

Fully separated? In what nation's airspace would I be free to operate without use of the ATC system there? My aircraft will function just fine without ATC and where ATC has been fully separated from government I am free to do that.
 
Clark1961 said:
That is why there are no contract towers and no well defined boundaries for airspace control amongst the many control centers and approach/departure controls.
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If you were trying to make a point, you failed.
 
roncachamp said:
"In recent decades, many nations have partly or fully separated their air traffic control (ATC) systems from their governments."

Fully separated? In what nation's airspace would I be free to operate without use of the ATC system there? My aircraft will function just fine without ATC and where ATC has been fully separated from government I am free to do that.
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So the only problem you have with the argument is use of the word "fully"?
 
roncachamp said:
I'd probably have more if I had read beyond that point but given that statement I saw no reason to.
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Of course not. You're mind is already made up, but maybe others will find it interesting.
 
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