Private multi?

[flyingcheesehead]

Okay, so I'm thinking about how I'm going to do my next couple of ratings. I'm probably going to do Comm-AMEL and then Comm-ASEL for reasons discussed in another thread.

My question is... Should I throw the private AMEL checkride in the middle so that I can log the rest of the training as PIC? CFI says don't bother because most places are looking mostly at total multi time, not multi PIC. It's not like 20 hours of multi PIC is a whole lot anyway.

Is that small amount of multi PIC (as opposed to multi non-PIC) going to make any difference at all? FWIW, I'm not going the airline route most likely, but might want to get some other kind of flying job at some point.

 

[EdFred]

Why would it matter where you do the Multi? Make sure to get the COMM-S first.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have the cash to throw around, go for it. Figure on 12 hours of multi instruction plus a checkride (another hour or so plus examiner's fee) for the Pvt-MEL add-on, then 30 hours of training in the twin (20 "training" and 10 "simulated solo"), plus another checkride, and then a few hours in a single and another check to add the SEL to your Comm-AMEL. OTOH, if you get the initial commercial in the single, it's 20 hours of single training in a complex, plus you've probably got most of the solo time (long solo XC and night solo) already, and then 12 hours or so in a twin to add the MEL to the Comm-ASEL.

 

[EdFred]

Ron -

If he gets the comm single first, no hour requirements in the multi.
61.63(c)(4)

Edited, because I referenced category (b) and not class (c)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ron -

If he gets the comm single first, no hour requirements in the multi.
61.63(b)(4)

Thanks for that reference, Ed... I can never seem to find it when I need it.

OK, so... If I did the single first:

250 hours TT - Done
100 hours in powered aircraft, 50 hours must be in airplanes - Done
100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time - Done
->50 hours in airplanes - Done
->50 hours in cross-country flight - Done
-->10 hours must be in airplanes. - Done
All of the above applies to both single and multi, and all of it is finished.

Single specific requirements:
20 hours of dual
->10 hours of instrument - Done
-->5 hours in a single - Done
->10 hours complex - Done
->2 hour Day VFR XC
->2 hour Night VFR XC

10 hours solo in a single - Done
->Long XC - Done
->5 hours night VFR with 10 trips around the pattern at a controlled field - Done

So theoretically I could do 20 hours dual including the 4 hours of XC (2 day, 2 night), learn the maneuvers and be good to go. Theoretically.

Multi specific requirements:
20 hours dual (doesn't specify that it all has to be multi, but...)
->10 hours instrument - Done
-->5 hours in a multi
->10 hours multi complex
->2 hour day VFR cross country
->2 hour night VFR cross country
10 hours solo or "supervised solo"
->Long XC
->5 hours night VFR with 10 trips around the pattern at a towered field.


So, bare minimum 30 hours in the multi, which translates to $7675. And that doesn't include the instruction time.

Bare minimum 20 hours in the single, $2173.
Doing the same 20 hours in a club plane (FG, have to do the multi first for this) would be only about $1157, a savings of over $1,000.

The funny thing is, I honestly feel more confident about the multi than the single. The multi does not require the maneuvers that the single does, and while I've only done one engine out so far, it seemed relatively easy to deal with. (I'm sitting at one engine out and one lazy eight... That's very limited experience with both! )

I guess I feel like the single would take longer. I'd like to think I'm a good stick and would pick up the new plane pretty quickly. Ed and Bruce, you've flown with me so you might have a better idea what I'll require.

And now I'm thinking very dangerous thoughts about buying a Twinkie and doing it with that. Hmmm...

 

[gprellwitz]

Kent, what says you can't use the same hour to meet multiple objectives?

Thanks for that reference, Ed... I can never seem to find it when I need it.

OK, so... If I did the single first:

250 hours TT - Done
100 hours in powered aircraft, 50 hours must be in airplanes - Done
100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time - Done
->50 hours in airplanes - Done
->50 hours in cross-country flight - Done
-->10 hours must be in airplanes. - Done
All of the above applies to both single and multi, and all of it is finished.

Single specific requirements:
20 hours of dual
->10 hours of instrument - Done
-->5 hours in a single - Done
->10 hours complex - Done
->2 hour Day VFR XC
->2 hour Night VFR XC

10 hours solo in a single - Done
->Long XC - Done
->5 hours night VFR with 10 trips around the pattern at a controlled field - Done

So theoretically I could do 20 hours dual including the 4 hours of XC (2 day, 2 night), learn the maneuvers and be good to go. Theoretically.

First, for single. You've got between 4 and 10 hours left, depending on whether your instrument was in a complex. Fly to Litchfield, MN some day, have dinner, then fly back. That can also be used to meet the 3 hours within the past 60 days requirement. If you did the instrument in a complex, you have another 6 hours you'll need, so spend them perfecting your lazy-8s or 8's on pylons.

Multi specific requirements:
20 hours dual (doesn't specify that it all has to be multi, but...)
->10 hours instrument - Done
-->5 hours in a multi
->10 hours multi complex
->2 hour day VFR cross country
->2 hour night VFR cross country
10 hours solo or "supervised solo"
->Long XC
->5 hours night VFR with 10 trips around the pattern at a towered field.


So, bare minimum 30 hours in the multi, which translates to $7675. And that doesn't include the instruction time.

For the multi, you need 10 hours of multi, 5 of which must be instrument work, 2 must be your day VFR, and 2 must be your night VFR. You then need to do 10 PIC, 5 of which must be at night with the requisite T/O & landings. So that should be around $5120.

Bare minimum 20 hours in the single, $2173.
Doing the same 20 hours in a club plane (FG, have to do the multi first for this) would be only about $1157, a savings of over $1,000.

The funny thing is, I honestly feel more confident about the multi than the single. The multi does not require the maneuvers that the single does, and while I've only done one engine out so far, it seemed relatively easy to deal with. (I'm sitting at one engine out and one lazy eight... That's very limited experience with both! )

I guess I feel like the single would take longer. I'd like to think I'm a good stick and would pick up the new plane pretty quickly. Ed and Bruce, you've flown with me so you might have a better idea what I'll require.

And now I'm thinking very dangerous thoughts about buying a Twinkie and doing it with that. Hmmm...

Note that I'm only looking at the bare hour minimums in the FARs, not what you might need to actually be comfortable and competent! I'm also not going to look at the single costs, because I'm not sure how that works out, especially with the problems you're having getting the Arrow back up.

Am I missing something here?
[edited for format]

 

[EdFred]

Kent -

Throw out that 20 hours. You already have it covered when you consider your IR training hours and complex signoff. So all you need is the day and night XC VFR with an instructor. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, if you want, I should have my CFI real soon.....

Remember THROW OUT all hour requirements in the multi if you get the COM-S first. Just get proficient.

(4) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought unless the person holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating and

 

[DeeG]

Okay, so I'm thinking about how I'm going to do my next couple of ratings. I'm probably going to do Comm-AMEL and then Comm-ASEL for reasons discussed in another thread.

My question is... Should I throw the private AMEL checkride in the middle so that I can log the rest of the training as PIC?

What would the point be in getting your P-AMEL when you would already have a Comm-AMEL? My inital multi rating was comm. Nothing required me to get a private in order to log anything as PIC.

My ratings order:

Private in single
IFR in single
Multi-comm-IFR in multi
If I ever get around to getting my single comm, I could do it in our C-150

You listed a bunch of hours for the multi:

******
Originally Posted by flyingcheesehead
Multi specific requirements:
20 hours dual (doesn't specify that it all has to be multi, but...)
->10 hours instrument - Done
-->5 hours in a multi
->10 hours multi complex
->2 hour day VFR cross country
->2 hour night VFR cross country
10 hours solo or "supervised solo"
->Long XC
->5 hours night VFR with 10 trips around the pattern at a towered field.
******

Nothing says you have to do all that time VFR. 85% of my multi training was done under the Foggles. Ever do a Vmc demo on an IFR training flight with Foggles on? Loads of fun! (Just make sure that ATC is cool with you're ahhh...diversion.)


The CFI's I worked with did whatever they could to get ratings as inexpensively as they could. No point in doing the multi, then multi IFR (unless you don't have a single IFR yet), then the comm. Do it all at once and get it done with.

 

[EdFred]

What would the point be in getting your P-AMEL when you would already have a Comm-AMEL?

He doesn't have any comm ratings right now. Cheaper and quicker for him to knock out the C-S then add the M.

 

[DeeG]

Why would it matter where you do the Multi? Make sure to get the COMM-S first.

Why? If he's trying to save some $$, its cheaper to get the initial comm in the multi. That way you don't have to use a complex aircraft to do the S add on.

If I ever get around to getting my S add on (I'm only multi comm rated) I can use my Cessna 150.

 

[EdFred]

Why? If he's trying to save some $$, its cheaper to get the initial comm in the multi. That way you don't have to use a complex aircraft to do the S add on.

If I ever get around to getting my S add on (I'm only multi comm rated) I can use my Cessna 150.

Because right now he has already knocked out all the requirements in the singles except the 2 vfr cross countries. All he has to do it fly those (in any SEL - yawn) and work on his maneuvers.

In a Multi he has to meet ALL these requirements:

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

If he gets his SEL COM first he has to do NONE of those. It's WAY cheaper at this point to get the SEL. Especially at $220/hr in a twin not including the instructor. Oh, yeah, and he STILL has to get proficient in all the maneuvers in the twin.

And you only need the complex for about .3 on the check ride for the single commercial. I did my commercial ride in 2 planes.

 

[DeeG]

Oh, yeah, and he STILL has to get proficient in all the maneuvers in the twin.
.

No, you don't. the only comm manuevers I did on the multi comm was steep turns and turns around a point (or some reference manuver like that). You DO have to know them for the single comm, though.

 

[EdFred]

Still a lot of $$ to fork out for all the hour requirements in the multi, something he doesn't have to do in the single since he's pretty much met all the requirements.

 

[Henning]

Okay, so I'm thinking about how I'm going to do my next couple of ratings. I'm probably going to do Comm-AMEL and then Comm-ASEL for reasons discussed in another thread.

My question is... Should I throw the private AMEL checkride in the middle so that I can log the rest of the training as PIC? CFI says don't bother because most places are looking mostly at total multi time, not multi PIC. It's not like 20 hours of multi PIC is a whole lot anyway.

Is that small amount of multi PIC (as opposed to multi non-PIC) going to make any difference at all? FWIW, I'm not going the airline route most likely, but might want to get some other kind of flying job at some point.

Unless you own the multi or are going to be paid to fly it ASAP, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I had a PMEL at 68hrs because I bought a Travel Air. Otherwise I would have waited to add it with the commercial rating.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If you have the cash to throw around, go for it. Figure on 12 hours of multi instruction plus a checkride (another hour or so plus examiner's fee) for the Pvt-MEL add-on, then 30 hours of training in the twin (20 "training" and 10 "simulated solo"), plus another checkride

Wouldn't the hours I did pre-private AMEL count towards the hours for the comm? If not, well... That doesn't make sense at all. Not that the FAA ever does, but... It just seems that a lot of the same things are required so I could just throw a checkride in the middle and then do the x-c's and the comm checkride.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Throw out that 20 hours. You already have it covered when you consider your IR training hours and complex signoff.

It has to be 20 hours of instruction *toward the commercial* though doesn't it? I do have about 23 hours of Arrow time, so no complex time requirement.

So all you need is the day and night XC VFR with an instructor. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, if you want, I should have my CFI real soon.....

Yeah, but you're kind of geographically challenged.

Hey, aren't you gonna have a Comanche soon?

So if you split the comm ride into two airplanes, what do you have to do in the complex? Just a trip around the pattern? That right there isn't such a bad idea. That way, I could still use a club plane for most of it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What would the point be in getting your P-AMEL when you would already have a Comm-AMEL? My inital multi rating was comm. Nothing required me to get a private in order to log anything as PIC.

Just to log the second half of the comm training as PIC. You do need to be rated in category and class to log PIC.

Nothing says you have to do all that time VFR. 85% of my multi training was done under the Foggles.

The cross country flights do have to be VFR, the only thing I'd be doing IFR would be some approaches so I can do one on the ride.

 

[EdFred]

It has to be 20 hours of instruction *toward the commercial* though doesn't it? I do have about 23 hours of Arrow time, so no complex time requirement.

It is toward the commercial. You don't need ANOTHER 20 hours after you decide, oh, I'm going to get my commerical. YOu didn't have to fly 50 hours of XC *after* you decided you wanted your IR did you?

All you need to do is get those XC and maneuvers out of the way and you are done.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It is toward the commercial. You don't need ANOTHER 20 hours after you decide, oh, I'm going to get my commerical. YOu didn't have to fly 50 hours of XC *after* you decided you wanted your IR did you?

All you need to do is get those XC and maneuvers out of the way and you are done.

Well, it looks like I'm gonna use the same CFI as I did for my commercial. I do really like him, and he makes me a darn good pilot, but he's sometimes, uh, "overly thorough." Doubt I'll get the signoff in under 20 hours anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

If he gets the comm single first, no hour requirements in the multi. 61.63(c)(4)

Legally true, but experientially, I'll stand by that 12 hours to be ready to pass a fair and complete ME add-on practical test including instrument privileges. Yes, some folks may do it in 8, but others may take 18; 12 is about the norm for proficiency. Note that I'm not counting the certificate mills which do not get you true proficiency, merely teach the test, and use tame examiners.

 

[poadeleted20]

Throw out that 20 hours. You already have it covered when you consider your IR training hours and complex signoff. So all you need is the day and night XC VFR with an instructor.

Unless the complex training took at least 6 hours and covered all the commercial training requirements (maneuvers, power-off precision landing, etc), you will need more than the 4 XC hours. Plus you need at least 3 hours of dedicated test prep. Therefore, I'd say you're likely to need a total of at least 10 hours of dedicated training before you're signed off, even if you already have the 10 hours of instrument and 6 hours of complex training.

Remember THROW OUT all hour requirements in the multi if you get the COM-S first. Just get proficient.

Which, in my experience, as noted above, takes 8 to 18 hours, depending on the individual and the the aircraft used (easier in, say, a Cougar than, say, a 58P Baron).