Private Checkride Fail

LDJones

LDJones

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
10,998
Location
Twin Cities, MN
Display Name
Display name:
Jonesy
One of my best students failed her checkride this week. After passing the 2.5 hour oral (including scuba diver time limits!) she launched on the x-c and nailed that portion until the emergency diversion. She entered the pattern at the diversion airport at 1000' AGL, same as our home field. The AF/D lists the TPA for that airport at 800', so she busted on altitude.

She opted to continue the flight but was a little rattled by that one. She nailed her first steep turn, then on the second one in the opposite direction she forgot her starting point and rolled out 90 deg. early. No second chance on that one, either.

I really like this examiner, despite his rep. for being pretty rigid, as I've always felt he was pretty fair. But I thought the TPA issue was a bit of a gotcha. In the future I think I'll have my students make note of the TPA on the chart for all airports along their route flight that might be used for a diversion in the exam!

We reviewed those items, did a few steep turns for practice and she passed with flying colors yesterday.
 
Yes, he sounds rigid... Good for her for passing yesterday!
 
Nice to hear she was able to pull through. My CFI pounded into my head to carry the current A/FD so you could check up on detail like TPA, rwy length, and freqs. She did that with diversions to unfamiliar airpoirts that had things not on the sectional - like TPA, lengths of xwind rwys, and PCL freqs that differ from CTAF.

My DPE was satisfied with my diversion when I made the turn and did all the math for him. We didn't actually go to the airport.
 
I flew with my future DPE a few times during training and he was a stickler for TPA too… Stead airport (KRTS) is at 5050' with a TPA of 5850. My regular CFI and I always flew it at 5900'. The first time out there with my future DPE he asked me why I was constantly 50 feet high.
 
Rigid? Ummmm...yeah. Busting her for the TPA sounds a tad ridiculous to me. But...she passed within a few days and she learned something so I guess it's all good.

The larger question. Did he charge her for the retest? If so, did he have a boat payment due?

:)
 
Do you really think it was the 200' TPA difference that failed her? That seems like such a small mistake. Glad she pulled through and passed on day 2. Congratulations to you both!
 
That's what I was thinking, I'm glad I passed my check ride a long time ago! :D I could see 200 feet low being a problem, but I guess I need to brush up on my TPA's :D Glad she passed!

JasonM said:
Do you really think it was the 200' TPA difference that failed her? That seems like such a small mistake. Glad she pulled through and passed on day 2. Congratulations to you both!
Click to expand...
 
N747JB said:
That's what I was thinking, I'm glad I passed my check ride a long time ago! :D I could see 200 feet low being a problem, but I guess I need to brush up on my TPA's :D Glad she passed!
Click to expand...
One possibility, if class B is at 1000 agl then all of a sudden you're in B without being cleared in.
 
Back in the 73 at KDPA with another CFI watching his student go into the then GADO for a check ride 10 min oral then out to the plane once around the pattern and he was done. We both thought he failed but he came out with a new private pilot's cert. Those days are gone if your student can't perform the requirements of the Practical Test Guide their not going to pass.
 
brien23 said:
Back in the 73 at KDPA with another CFI watching his student go into the then GADO for a check ride 10 min oral then out to the plane once around the pattern and he was done. We both thought he failed but he came out with a new private pilot's cert. Those days are gone if your student can't perform the requirements of the Practical Test Guide their not going to pass.
Click to expand...
I've heard stories of checkrides done over the phone.:yikes: The good old days must have been totally awesome.
 
Sounds to me like the DPE needed to fail a student or two to prove to the FSDO he was doing his job.

I'm glad she passed so promptly!

-Skip
 
Busted the TPA for a diversion? That's one examiner I'd never use again and I'd make sure to tell him so, too.
 
Glad she passed. Hope you didn't loose her confidence level. The dpe must have believed her planning was a little lax ,hence the tpa bust.
 
+1 on thinking its ridiculous for busting over a 200ft TPA. I've never heard of anyone busting for that...
 
write-stuff said:
Busted the TPA for a diversion? That's one examiner I'd never use again and I'd make sure to tell him so, too.
Click to expand...

Righto. This story makes the examiner I used (twice now) a pansy! That's a tough bust.
 
IMO on a diversion like that digging through your afd would seem distracting and counterproductive.... Unless there is a safety reason its 800agl and not 1000... Just seems like a cheap shot to me. But congrats to her for passing the second time around.
 
my first cfi i remember looking at a small airport that was 900 tpa and he said no go 1k thats what we train for..
 
Did the examiner request steep turns in both directions?
 
I have to admit the TPA thing would rub me the wrong way. There is no FAR that mandates a traffic pattern altitude, and while there are many reasons to fly a standard pattern altitude, ultimately it is something at the pilot's discretion.
 
At my home field, tap for light aircraft is 1000 MSL, which figures out to be 989 AGL, and multi engine is 1513 MSL, which figures out to be 1502 AGL, according to Foreflight. However, according to the AFD, it's come thing else, and it's in small type under remarks. Yup, busting that gal for that is pretty much chickenpoop.:yesnod:
 
LDJones said:
One of my best students failed her checkride this week. After passing the 2.5 hour oral (including scuba diver time limits!) she launched on the x-c and nailed that portion until the emergency diversion. She entered the pattern at the diversion airport at 1000' AGL, same as our home field. The AF/D lists the TPA for that airport at 800', so she busted on altitude.

She opted to continue the flight but was a little rattled by that one. She nailed her first steep turn, then on the second one in the opposite direction she forgot her starting point and rolled out 90 deg. early. No second chance on that one, either.

I really like this examiner, despite his rep. for being pretty rigid, as I've always felt he was pretty fair. But I thought the TPA issue was a bit of a gotcha. In the future I think I'll have my students make note of the TPA on the chart for all airports along their route flight that might be used for a diversion in the exam!

We reviewed those items, did a few steep turns for practice and she passed with flying colors yesterday.
Click to expand...


The TPA thing is BS. Missing a roll out, do it over in the same flight as he explains why she is getting a do over. This inspector needs an attitude adjustment.
 
timwinters said:
Rigid? Ummmm...yeah. Busting her for the TPA sounds a tad ridiculous to me. But...she passed within a few days and she learned something so I guess it's all good.

The larger question. Did he charge her for the retest? If so, did he have a boat payment due?

:)
Click to expand...

It was an extra $100 for the retest which took two attempts due to weather.
 
Matthew said:
Nice to hear she was able to pull through. My CFI pounded into my head to carry the current A/FD so you could check up on detail like TPA, rwy length, and freqs. She did that with diversions to unfamiliar airpoirts that had things not on the sectional - like TPA, lengths of xwind rwys, and PCL freqs that differ from CTAF.

My DPE was satisfied with my diversion when I made the turn and did all the math for him. We didn't actually go to the airport.
Click to expand...

She had ForeFlight on her iPhone but didn't consult it due to concentrating on the flying. Ironically, other nearby airports list no TPA in AF/D...only the one assigned. I'll be reviewing ALL nearby airports with students in thefuture.
 
LDJones said:
She had ForeFlight on her iPhone but didn't consult it due to concentrating on the flying. Ironically, other nearby airports list no TPA in AF/D...only the one assigned. I'll be reviewing ALL nearby airports with students in thefuture.
Click to expand...

DPE sounds rough. Are you planning on using him/her in future?
 
Is she pretty? Maybe the examiner just wanted another 'date.' :rolleyes:

The TPA bust was bogus.

He should have given her another round of steep turns if she performed the first perfectly. Talk to her and calm her down and do it again. The guy sounds like an azzhat.
 
Immelman said:
I have to admit the TPA thing would rub me the wrong way. There is no FAR that mandates a traffic pattern altitude, and while there are many reasons to fly a standard pattern altitude, ultimately it is something at the pilot's discretion.
Click to expand...

I always thought airports had published altitudes for traffic patterns. The two I fly from do and they want you to adhere to them exactly. In the bi annual I'm always very carefull of this as the instructor, ( a very good one) demands it. Sloppy flying is just that. Flying at any ole altitude in a published pattern is not too bright and dangerous.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I always thought airports had published altitudes for traffic patterns. The two I fly from do and they want you to adhere to them exactly. In the bi annual I'm always very carefull of this as the instructor, ( a very good one) demands it. Sloppy flying is just that. Flying at any ole altitude in a published pattern is not too bright and dangerous.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing against the wisdom and safety afforded by flying at an agreed upon altitude, just that those altitudes are not regulatory. There are many scenarios where one would fly a different altitude (large aircraft going faster, ultralights going slower, coming out of an instrument approach if you're in a marginal weather situation to "Class G VFR", regardless of aircraft type). As such while, its very useful to fly around the patch at a common altitude, it does not always happen and I think we need to be prepared for that.

I think its pretty harsh to bust someone on a successful diversion for something like that, unless their *choice* of altitude caused some other bust (airspace), or it was a busy place and figuring out TPA ahead of time would be critical to safety, but that is just me.
 
I've been to a number of airports that don't publish a TPA. I think the AIM recommends a 1000agl default. What I don't like are airports that don't have a published TPA but the locals say, "TPA here is 800", or whatever. I HAVE seen discrepancies in some flight info sources that do say TPA is xxx, but the official A/FD doesn't show anything.

I do think your student deserves credit for flying the plane first, and worrying about the TPA later. Maybe, if she had just said, "I'll verify the airport info in the A/FD when I feel comfortable with the distraction, but first I have more important things to do..." Maybe.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I always thought airports had published altitudes for traffic patterns. The two I fly from do and they want you to adhere to them exactly. In the bi annual I'm always very carefull of this as the instructor, ( a very good one) demands it. Sloppy flying is just that. Flying at any ole altitude in a published pattern is not too bright and dangerous.
Click to expand...

There are A LOT of airports in this area that have one TPA published in the A/FD and a different one on AOPA and ForeFlight. It's my understanding that the A/FD is always the official source but the variety of information out there can make for some "interesting" encounters and discussions with others in the pattern.

And I always wonder..."why the difference?"
 
Last edited:
LDJones said:
I really like this examiner, despite his rep. for being pretty rigid, as I've always felt he was pretty fair. But I thought the TPA issue was a bit of a gotcha. In the future I think I'll have my students make note of the TPA on the chart for all airports along their route flight that might be used for a diversion in the exam!
Click to expand...
...or at least check the A/FD entry before they get there. BTW, this is one situation where ForeFlight gives you a great advantage -- once you find the airport on the chart, a few taps get you all the airport information including TPA.

In any event, I can't fault the examiner for this one -- the standards are clear (see Area III, Task B ), and the applicant should know to check TPA as well as pattern direction even on a diversion.
Task B: Traffic Patterns (ASEL and ASES)
References: FAA-H-8083-3, FAA-H-8083-25; AC 90-66; AIM.​
Objective:​
To determine that the applicant:​

1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to​
traffic patterns. This shall include procedures at airports​
with and without operating control towers, prevention of​
runway incursions, collision avoidance, wake turbulence​
avoidance, and wind shear.​
...​
3. Complies with proper traffic pattern procedures.​
...​
7. Maintains traffic pattern altitude, ±100 feet, and the​
appropriate airspeed, ±10 knots.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Not to be a smart aleck, but it was an emergency diversion. What was the emergency? I would have looked the DPE in the eye and said: "Emergency diversion. I was maintaining as much altitude as possible to insure the safety of the people on the ground and a safe landing as per FAA requirements."
But then, I have a problem with authority anyway.
 
brien23 said:
Back in the 73 at KDPA with another CFI watching his student go into the then GADO for a check ride 10 min oral then out to the plane once around the pattern and he was done. We both thought he failed but he came out with a new private pilot's cert. Those days are gone if your student can't perform the requirements of the Practical Test Guide their not going to pass.
Click to expand...
Practical Test Guide? You really are dating yourself. :D
 
lr60plt said:
+1 on thinking its ridiculous for busting over a 200ft TPA. I've never heard of anyone busting for that...
Click to expand...
Just how much over the PTS tolerance do you think examiners should allow before deciding the applicant's performance is unsatisfactory? In this case, 200 feet is twice the allowed tolerance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top