Preventing a Gear-up Landing

And the day before the gear-up every pilot in the country will tell you exactly how they do it every time.

Sac Arrow said:
That's exactly what I do. I consider lowering the gear to be the deployment of the first set of flaps.
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GUMPS entering the pattern or airport area (Tower call up), GUMPS downwind or outer marker, GUMPS short-final.

Or stop flying retracts. ;) ;) ;)
 
For the OP, one thing I would suggest since you are filing a Debbie/Bo: if you generally do a lot of touch and goes. I'd recommend eliminating them from your repertoire when flying the Beech. Aside from lack of maintenance, way too many Beech pilots have come to grief pulling the wrong lever when doing TnG's or being in a hurry to bring up the flaps on rollout.
 
I wonder if Foreflight could/would consider some logic that verbalizes a GUMP check warning say within 800' agl. Seems pretty simple although it would have to use GPS altitude compared to known ground elevation. Much like their "Hazard Advisor". It could be user configurable in terms of on/off and elevation threshold. Certainly not an answer to the problem, but an added safety net.
 
TexasPilot71 said:
I wonder if Foreflight could/would consider some logic that verbalizes a GUMP check warning say within 800' agl. Seems pretty simple although it would have to use GPS altitude compared to known ground elevation. Much like their "Hazard Advisor". It could be user configurable in terms of on/off and elevation threshold. Certainly not an answer to the problem, but an added safety net.
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You should be looking outside at 800 agl, not have your face buried in an iPad.
 
My instructor was flying with a student once who flew the approach with the gear horn going, he sugggested to her that if she advanced the throttle slightly that noise would stop.
She did.
 
The only sure way to prevent a gear up landing is exactly the same method I use to keep from flying into mountains.......I pay attention to what phase of flight I am in and what I need to do next. Practice standardized procedures and have the self discipline to do it every single time. The only times I have landed with my gear up in 30+ years of flying many different types is when it was supposed to be up, per the checklist. Pay attention.
 
EdFred said:
You should be looking outside at 800 agl, not have your face buried in an iPad.
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No doubt. I was referring to the audio callouts it provides. Plug your headset in and it will alert you to runway proximities. Could simply use the same technology to add another layer of audio warnings (or reminders in this case).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Lance, do you have a link to this system? I'd be interested.
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Its an Icarus SAM which includes GPSS, gear warning, a very nice altitude alerter (calls "approaching six thousand" when climbing or descending to a new altitude and "Check altitude, five thousand" if you reach then deviate from the set altitude, verbal warnings for low voltage, high voltage, loss of vacuum, low oil pressure (those two require external sensors) and the control switch includes a 3 line LCD where you can display most parameters from a GPS (mine shows track angle error and actual track on the two configurable lines).

http://www.icarusinstruments.com/samgps/Home.html

AFaIK, Icarus also makes a similar unit sans GPSS.
 
wabower said:
Stated differently, is it true that with more than approach flaps extended the horn on your plane cannot be silenced without extending the gear?
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Yes. If the flaps are 25* or more and the gear is up, the horn will sound and keep sounding. I rarely use 40*, so honestly it wouldn't help me a bunch but it's a feature.
 
MAKG1 said:
I have 45 fewer horses than you do. And the gear warning goes off at 12 inches in the Cardinal.

It's a mechanical throttle position switch, so the warning silences as soon as the throttle goes in, regardless of whether or not the engine responds.
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The horn was coming on at 17ish so I had the mechanic adjust it. It is based on throttle position, you're correct. It doesn't come on at the same place every time, but it's close.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Yes. If the flaps are 25* or more and the gear is up, the horn will sound and keep sounding. I rarely use 40*, so honestly it wouldn't help me a bunch but it's a feature.
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Not all aircraft do this. Skylanes and Cutlasses do. Cardinals don't.

You can fly around all day (or 5.5 hours or so until you run out of fuel) with gear up, flaps full and throttle full, and the horn will NOT sound. We even tested it during my checkout.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not all aircraft do this. Skylanes and Cutlasses do. Cardinals don't.

You can fly around all day (or 5.5 hours or so until you run out of fuel) with gear up, flaps full and throttle full, and the horn will NOT sound. We even tested it during my checkout.
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Weird. Even though Cessna had the same basic idea throughout all the retracts, they sure did some things different on some of them.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Weird. Even though Cessna had the same basic idea throughout all the retracts, they sure did some things different on some of them.
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The Cardinal also has the pump motor under the hatshelf. I don't know where it is on the Skylane, but in the Cutlass, it's between the two sets of rudder pedals.

They are similar, not identical.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Weird. Even though Cessna had the same basic idea throughout all the retracts, they sure did some things different on some of them.
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Anyone who thinks Cessnas are similar just needs to look at all of the different fuel tank capacities that Cessna used troughout the 172 models.
 
gismo said:
Its an Icarus SAM which includes GPSS, gear warning, a very nice altitude alerter (calls "approaching six thousand" when climbing or descending to a new altitude and "Check altitude, five thousand" if you reach then deviate from the set altitude, verbal warnings for low voltage, high voltage, loss of vacuum, low oil pressure (those two require external sensors) and the control switch includes a 3 line LCD where you can display most parameters from a GPS (mine shows track angle error and actual track on the two configurable lines).

http://www.icarusinstruments.com/samgps/Home.html

AFaIK, Icarus also makes a similar unit sans GPSS.
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Thanks, I'll have to look into that. I don't need GPSS with the Aspen (which also has a tone for altitude alerts), so it does have more features than I need. Ideally the AoA indicator would add a gear warning.
 
Is your flap handle a slider that allows the pilot to select any desired flap setting? If so, have you considered using one that (say 30 degrees) that is within the warning range? By consciously choosing a lower flap setting you have consciously chosen to eliminate one of the really useful warning systems on the plane.

Z06_Mir said:
The horn was coming on at 17ish so I had the mechanic adjust it. It is based on throttle position, you're correct. It doesn't come on at the same place every time, but it's close.
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Ted DuPuis said:
the Aspen (which also has a tone for altitude alerts)
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IMO there's quite a difference between a verbal announcement and a tone WRT getting your attention. Probably not as big an issue with altitude alerting vs landing gear position but I've had two or three things that generate a tone and it's hard to distinguish between them.
 
gismo said:
IMO there's quite a difference between a verbal announcement and a tone WRT getting your attention. Probably not as big an issue with altitude alerting vs landing gear position but I've had two or three things that generate a tone and it's hard to distinguish between them.
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I agree fully (hence the discussion in the first place), but the tone is more acceptable to me for altitude. I think the part that I wouldn't like would be having to program my altitude into multiple units.
 
MAKG1 said:
The Cardinal also has the pump motor under the hatshelf. I don't know where it is on the Skylane, but in the Cutlass, it's between the two sets of rudder pedals.

They are similar, not identical.
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Mine is inbetween the rudders also.


wabower said:
Is your flap handle a slider that allows the pilot to select any desired flap setting? If so, have you considered using one that (say 30 degrees) that is within the warning range? By consciously choosing a lower flap setting you have consciously chosen to eliminate one of the really useful warning systems on the plane.
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I can select it, but there are "notches" for 10, 20 and 40. I don't like landing with 40 flaps unless it's a short field and honestly I can't say I've ever landed with 30. I'll give it a try though on my next flight.
 
I think you'll like it. Setting it "just past the notch" will give you the added help provided by the system without changing your preferred landing performance.

Z06_Mir said:
Mine is inbetween the rudders also.




I can select it, but there are "notches" for 10, 20 and 40. I don't like landing with 40 flaps unless it's a short field and honestly I can't say I've ever landed with 30. I'll give it a try though on my next flight.
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I've always thought fast/slippery airplanes were much less likely to land gear up, because the gear extension is almost required just to help slow down...you'd never get slow enough without gear extension. I completely agree with Wayne's assessment that many gear up landings happen after a go around or some unusual sequence of events. I use 2000' radar altitude in the 737 to put the gear down, unless I'm high and/or fast, then I extend earlier.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I've always thought fast/slippery airplanes were much less likely to land gear up, because the gear extension is almost required just to help slow down...you'd never get slow enough without gear extension. I completely agree with Wayne's assessment that many gear up landings happen after a go around or some unusual sequence of events. I use 2000' radar altitude in the 737 to put the gear down, unless I'm high and/or fast, then I extend earlier.
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If this was true, there would be few Mooney gearups. Alas, it continues to happen, but distraction of some sort is often involved.

I came close once on a Young Eagles flight, too busy talking about what was happening and what was outside and missed gear down abeam the intended landing point. Had a hard time slowing down, still too fast on base but my second check caught the wrong indications. With the gear down, it was much easier to hit my desired speed on final. Sometimes I'm a little fast on downwind regardless of flap and gear position, as the flaps are not especially draggy like the Cessna barn doors.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I can select it, but there are "notches" for 10, 20 and 40. I don't like landing with 40 flaps unless it's a short field and honestly I can't say I've ever landed with 30. I'll give it a try though on my next flight.
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Trying hard to hit stuff on the ground harder/faster when someday you go off the runway, or what? ;)

I definitely lean the other way... I need a good reason not to utilize full flaps. ;)
 
wabower said:
I think you'll like it. Setting it "just past the notch" will give you the added help provided by the system without changing your preferred landing performance.
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denverpilot said:
Trying hard to hit stuff on the ground harder/faster when someday you go off the runway, or what? ;)

I definitely lean the other way... I need a good reason not to utilize full flaps. ;)
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I usually fly into airports with 4,000 or more runway. Yeah, I've done 2500' runways without issue and then I use full flaps but when at the home drone of 4,500ft or a regular stop of 8,700 feet it's just not necessary.
I just dont' find 40* flaps necessary most of the time, especially when it's really windy. I was doing a simulated soft-field with full flaps not long ago with 20+kt winds and I caught a pretty good gust even after I was on the ground with the mains and it brought me totally airborne again resulting in a go-around with full flaps on a 100*+ day with 200ft cranes staring at me. Thanks but no thanks.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I usually fly into airports with 4,000 or more runway. Yeah, I've done 2500' runways without issue and then I use full flaps but when at the home drone of 4,500ft or a regular stop of 8,700 feet it's just not necessary.
I just dont' find 40* flaps necessary most of the time, especially when it's really windy. I was doing a simulated soft-field with full flaps not long ago with 20+kt winds and I caught a pretty good gust even after I was on the ground with the mains and it brought me totally airborne again resulting in a go-around with full flaps on a 100*+ day with 200ft cranes staring at me. Thanks but no thanks.
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Gusts that big are a good argument for flap retraction to "plant" the aircraft, but I know the crowd here that flies the retracts will freak out at folks recommending that and having to unlearn that habit or be really really careful to call, confirm, and then move that handle.

I tend to think it's just knowing and flying the airplane, completely... until it stops moving. If its that gusty, bring them up. (And I do miss the Johnson Bars for that... Electric is slooooooow compared to planting it on with a bar...)
 
denverpilot said:
Gusts that big are a good argument for flap retraction to "plant" the aircraft, but I know the crowd here that flies the retracts will freak out at folks recommending that and having to unlearn that habit or be really really careful to call, confirm, and then move that handle.

I tend to think it's just knowing and flying the airplane, completely... until it stops moving. If its that gusty, bring them up. (And I do miss the Johnson Bars for that... Electric is slooooooow compared to planting it on with a bar...)
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That's the thing - Electric flaps are too slow to make retraction worthwhile. In fact, I'd rather keep 'em down and take the "mostly drag" version rather than have to take the amount of time going through the "mostly lift" portion of the flap extension while still near flying speed. Even if you retract immediately upon touchdown, by the time the flaps are up, you should be slow enough that they don't matter anyway.

Also, FWIW, I've landed the 182 with full flaps in a direct crosswind gusting to over 35 knots. Winds are no excuse for using less than full flaps - And I use full flaps on the runways at the 182's home which range from 5800 to 9000 feet long - Just let 'er roll after touchdown and save the brakes.
 
Which retrac are you flying the most?

denverpilot said:
Gusts that big are a good argument for flap retraction to "plant" the aircraft, but I know the crowd here that flies the retracts will freak out at folks recommending that and having to unlearn that habit or be really really careful to call, confirm, and then move that handle.

I tend to think it's just knowing and flying the airplane, completely... until it stops moving. If its that gusty, bring them up. (And I do miss the Johnson Bars for that... Electric is slooooooow compared to planting it on with a bar...)
Click to expand...
 
denverpilot said:
Gusts that big are a good argument for flap retraction to "plant" the aircraft, but I know the crowd here that flies the retracts will freak out at folks recommending that and having to unlearn that habit or be really really careful to call, confirm, and then move that handle.

I tend to think it's just knowing and flying the airplane, completely... until it stops moving. If its that gusty, bring them up. (And I do miss the Johnson Bars for that... Electric is slooooooow compared to planting it on with a bar...)
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All my recent retract flying has been in P products where mistaking the gear for the flaps is rather difficult.
 
Gear advisory this:

Up for Sea & Ski!
Down for Ground!

Placarded, check listed, and GUMPSed....
 
wabower said:
Which retrac are you flying the most?
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Used to be the 172RG all the time... But I don't anymore. And I fully understand the sentiment and training difficulties to beat the reaching for a handle without thinking -- that has to be done later by a CFI if someone with the "bad habit" transitions.

Was just offering up a possible solution to this weird "problem" some folks have with full-flap landings in gusty winds. Kent's got some good points also. Not picking on him personally, but I find it odd.

Airliners seem to do fine with full flap landings... Always...

Even when the spoilers are inop. :)

There's some weird OWTs that keep light aircraft pilots from doing full-flap landings in high winds, and/or gusty winds, and I don't get it.

Maybe I'm too sheltered, but I haven't seen a scenario yet where leaving the flaps at 20 results in significantly better control in that scenario, and I've landed in some ripping direct crosses, similar to Kent's. Not sure I can claim 35 knot continuous as in his story, but gusts that high, sure. (Only a few times, and bad wind planning on my part or a very blown forecast...)

I think if it's getting that sporty, and there's a good chance of departing the runway surface if one were to screw up... I'd rather depart slower than faster.

Of course, the better solution is, "Don't screw up." :)

I'm not sure I'm going to totally buy Kent's argument about the flaps producing "mostly lift" as they come up. The numbers don't show they produce MORE lift as they come up, so less is better. And if you're slowing, drag is rapidly decreasing (as is overall lift) anyway... so without a detailed numbers analysis I'd give his technique and mine about a wash... But we both agree, slower touchdown speed is better.

Yeah, the rudder might be less effective, but if you're running out of rudder, it's going to be an interesting landing no matter how you slice it.

Willing to be wrong on this one... But I suspect I'd be injured less than the no-flap guys and gals if all else were equal, and we both screwed up our respective landings somehow and hit the same airport truck sitting on the taxiway. ;) ;) ;)

I will endeavor to continue to Not Screw Up(TM). :) :) :)
 
Mixed thoughts there. Not picking on the no-flap poster... Not Kent. LOL...

Got my pronoun rearranged wrong, when I cut and pasted those sentences around getting that in a better order.

I hate it when my pronoun is in the wrong place, caught behind the wrong noun! ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's the thing - Electric flaps are too slow to make retraction worthwhile. In fact, I'd rather keep 'em down and take the "mostly drag" version rather than have to take the amount of time going through the "mostly lift" portion of the flap extension while still near flying speed. Even if you retract immediately upon touchdown, by the time the flaps are up, you should be slow enough that they don't matter anyway.

Also, FWIW, I've landed the 182 with full flaps in a direct crosswind gusting to over 35 knots. Winds are no excuse for using less than full flaps - And I use full flaps on the runways at the 182's home which range from 5800 to 9000 feet long - Just let 'er roll after touchdown and save the brakes.
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I save the brakes no matter what unless it's a for real short strip. Heck, at my 8,700 stop if I touch down before the 1,000ft markers if I don't roll for a long while I'll taxi forever.

We all fly differently, and that's OK. IMO both my method and yours are safe and are taught. I fly the way I was taught and it works for me. You fly the way you were taught and it works for you. I incorporate full flap landings for refresher purposes or when necessary, but it isn't standard. We all fly differently, and I think that's good. :yes:
 
Dead Stick said:
You lost me at "regardless of what plane you are flying". Proper use of checklists is the key, but I'm not a fan or proponent of using any checklist - mnemonic or otherwise - on any airplane that it doesn't fit 100%. The problem is that if you're using GUMPS in a fixed gear airplane, you get used to blowing right past the "Gear" part of the check; after all, the gear is "down and welded" on fixed gear airplanes so there’s nothing to do and no response or action is required. Most guys take a couple of hundred hours or more and a few hundred landings before they get their hands on something with retractable gear. That's a long time to be reinforcing that type of “do nothing” response. You don't want to get used to blowing past it in a simple airplane then accidentally blow by it when things start to get busy in the pattern when you’re in a retract. It has happened many times. Nearly 100% of the pilots involved in gear up accidents swear that they put the gear down. I'm sure they probably did say "Gear - Down" and blew through it without checking for the lights and or other indications - a habit that was reinforced by using an inappropriate checklist for hundreds of hours in "simple" airplanes.
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I do GUMPS in every airplane as well but don't blow by the gear, I still do a "Fixed and welded" call out vs "down and locked" and also look at the LH gear and ask my right seater to verify a RH gear.
 
Training in the wrong response isn't better than training no response. Dead Stick has an important point.
 
snoboy said:
and ask my right seater to verify a RH gear.
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That's something I did on my first passenger trip and will continue to do. Even a non-pilot can (and probably will) watch for those three greens before landing if you just brief them either before departure or during descent checklist. It scares me in the F33 Bonanza as the gear and indicators are hidden by the yoke bar. It's another layer of safety IMHO.
 
For what it's worth, sometimes I find myself reaching for the gear lever on a 172, just like I find myself stomping in the clutch when driving an automatic.
 
I'm not sure of the origin of the "gear down, landing checks" phrase that is/was used by many of the older former military pilots that I have flown with, but I like it because the really important item is at the top of the list.
 
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