precision vs. nonprecision approaches

echelon

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echelon
A response to my last post reminded me of a question that I've had for quite some time... and I seem to get a different answer from everybody I ask.

With respect to logging an RNAV approach with LPV or LNAV/VNAV minimums, how do you guys define precision vs. non-precision? Chapter 1 of the FARs defines a precision approach as anything with an electronic glideslope, whereas AIM Ch. 5.4.5 (7)(a) defines it a little more specifically in terms of "ICAO Annex 10", and defines an "Approach with Vertical Guidance" separately.

I'm inclined go with the more specific AIM definition of a precision approach, but I thought I would ask because I've never been able to get a definitive answer on this.
 
A response to my last post reminded me of a question that I've had for quite some time... and I seem to get a different answer from everybody I ask.

With respect to logging an RNAV approach with LPV or LNAV/VNAV minimums, how do you guys define precision vs. non-precision? Chapter 1 of the FARs defines a precision approach as anything with an electronic glideslope, whereas AIM Ch. 5.4.5 (7)(a) defines it a little more specifically in terms of "ICAO Annex 10", and defines an "Approach with Vertical Guidance" separately.

I'm inclined go with the more specific AIM definition of a precision approach, but I thought I would ask because I've never been able to get a definitive answer on this.

LPV approaches are specifically defined as "non-precision" but AFaIK the only impact this has is that for alternates you must apply the 800-2 min forecast requirement.
 
Also there is a note in the latest Instrument PTS that LPV may be used to meet the precision approach requirements.

I think the LPV has made the precision/non-precision dichotomy murky rather than black and white as it used to be.

Joe
 
...whereas AIM Ch. 5.4.5 (7)(a) defines it a little more specifically in terms of "ICAO Annex 10", and defines an "Approach with Vertical Guidance" separately.

As you've pointed out, the AIM defines an LPV or LNAV/VNAV approach as "Approach with Vertical Guidance" (APV) and thus is not considered a precision approach.

Also there is a note in the latest Instrument PTS that LPV may be used to meet the precision approach requirements

When it comes time to demonstrate a precision approach on a checkride, that's when the definition starts to get confusing.

The note in the instrument PTS (dated January 2010) makes it even more confusing. Technically an LPV is not considered a precision approach (reference AIM 5-4-5(7)(a)), but if you reference the instrument PTS, an LPV with a DA equal to or less than 300 feet can be used to satisfy the precision approach requirement (Area of Operation VI, B ) on an instrument checkride.

Now if you turn to the CFII PTS (FAA-S-8081-9D) dated July 2010, page 8 and 9 define things a bit differently, stating that any LPV can be used to satisfy the precision approach requirement (Area of Operation VIII, B ). It further states that "...although LPV and LNAV/VNAV approaches are nonprecision approaches, they cannot be used to demonstrate nonprecision approach proficiency due to the presence of a glidepath." So while you can fly an LPV to demonstrate proficiency teaching a precision instrument approach, you can't use it or an LNAV/VNAV to satisfy the non-precision requirement even though the PTS clearly defines it as a nonprecision approach on page 9.

Clear as mud. Bottom line is that the AIM does not define it as a precision approach, but rather as an APV. For the purpose of satisfying the precision approach requirement on a checkride, reference the appropriate PTS for guidance.
 
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With respect to logging an RNAV approach with LPV or LNAV/VNAV minimums,
Since the FAA did not put into effect their proposed change to require logging of both precision and nonprecision approaches for instrument currency, there is no issue with logging LPV approaches -- it counts for one of your semiannual six without specifying as precision or nonprecision. In fact, you need not even specify whether it was LNAV or LPV or whatever -- just "RNAV 32 @ SBY" is sufficient.

The only time this differentiation would come up would be to meet the precision approach requirement for an Instrument practical test, and that issue is addressed in the PTS and has been discussed above.
 
BTW, though not asked, if all you do is LPV's for your precision approach training for your IR practical test, you're going to be flummoxed by the apparently over-sensitive needles inside about 2 miles the first time you fly an ILS. If your plane has a WAAS GPS, try to get several of each (LPV and ILS) during your training.
 
The only time this differentiation would come up would be to meet the precision approach requirement for an Instrument practical test, and that issue is addressed in the PTS and has been discussed above.
The same PTS defined requirement is used for an IPC.

Joe
 
In my case, the answer is easy: all of my approaches are nonprecision approaches; or nonprecise approaches, at least!
 
BTW, though not asked, if all you do is LPV's for your precision approach training for your IR practical test, you're going to be flummoxed by the apparently over-sensitive needles inside about 2 miles the first time you fly an ILS. \

Agreed...major difference there.
 
over-sensitive needles inside about 2 miles the first time you fly an ILS.
I hear such comments once in a while but I don't understand the basis for them. Actually at around MAP the localizer beam is a bit wider than the horizontal portion of the LPV (1000 ft versus 700 ft) and the similar comparative numbers carry ahead of MAP - localizer is either a bit wider or similar to the LPV. And both localizer and LPV have very similar course width right at the runway threshold - 700 ft.
 
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I hear such comments once in a while but I don't understand the basis for them. Actually at around MAP the localizer beam is a bit wider than the horizontal portion of the LPV (1000 ft versus 700 ft) and the similar comparative numbers carry ahead of MAP - localizer is either a bit wider or similar to the LPV. And both localizer and LPV have very similar course width right at the runway threshold - 700 ft.

It depends on the length of the runway. The course width for an ILS localizer is between 3 and 6+ degrees. The localizer antenna is situated off the departure end of the runway and the antenna is adjusted to give a 700 foot full course width at the approach threshold. So if the antenna is 6000 feet from the threshold, the angle will be set to 2 * arctan(700/6000) or 6.66 degrees. For a longer runway, the antenna is further away from the threshold, say 11000 feet, so the angle will be set to 2 * arctan(700/11000), or 3.64 degrees. There is no antenna location for an LPV, so the angle is set to a fixed value of 4 degrees. This is based on a fixed convergence point that is 10,000 feet from the threshold, or 2 * arctan (700/10000).

So sometimes the ILS is more sensitive and sometimes it isn't. For runways that are below 9500 feet long, an ILS course width is the same or wider than an LPV. For longer runways, the ILS course width is narrower.
 
The biggest difference I've seen is not so much the scale of a full deflection but the sensitivity to signal errors. The LPV seems to have slower more consistent deflections than the ILS. I'm sure part of it is due to the processing inside the digital system versus the instantaneous analog display. I believe there is also a good deal due to radio wave propagation in a cluttered environment.

Joe
 
I hear such comments once in a while but I don't understand the basis for them. Actually at around MAP the localizer beam is a bit wider than the horizontal portion of the LPV (1000 ft versus 700 ft) and the similar comparative numbers carry ahead of MAP - localizer is either a bit wider or similar to the LPV. And both localizer and LPV have very similar course width right at the runway threshold - 700 ft.

It's almost an analog vs digital difference. GPS isn't "noisy" the way localizers and glideslopes and VOR can be. As far as the pilot is concerned, you either have good position data or you have NO position data. The sensitivity varies but you just get more consistent results.

Finally, with a GPS you can in real time compare your desired track and actual track and make them match, which means your needle never gets far off center to begin with.
 
Finally, with a GPS you can in real time compare your desired track and actual track and make them match, which means your needle never gets far off center to begin with.

That is a good tip, and you can use it on an ILS as well for improved tracking if you also have a GPS.
 
but the sensitivity to signal errors. The LPV seems to have slower more consistent deflections than the ILS. I'm sure part of it is due to the processing inside the digital system versus the instantaneous analog display. I believe there is also a good deal due to radio wave propagation in a cluttered environment.
I believe you hit the nail on the head (so did Tim).
 
Finally, with a GPS you can in real time compare your desired track and actual track and make them match, which means your needle never gets far off center to begin with.

+1. I make sure all of my students learn how to use this technique if the aircraft or simulator is equipped with GPS before I sign them off. It's a very helpful tool and allows you to maintain course with extreme precision.
 
By the way, can anyone tell me whether there are any guidelines if approaches can be flown on autopilot during the IFR checkride?
 
By the way, can anyone tell me whether there are any guidelines if approaches can be flown on autopilot during the IFR checkride?

If it is there, you can use it. Having said that, don't be surprised if the examiner tells you it is inop at some point during the ride.
 
By the way, can anyone tell me whether there are any guidelines if approaches can be flown on autopilot during the IFR checkride?
First, if there is an autopilot in the plane, proficiency with it must be demonstrated, including using it on one nonprecision approach.
The applicant is expected to utilize an autopilot and/or flight
management system (FMS), if properly installed, during the instrument
practical test to assist in the management of the aircraft. The examiner
is expected to test the applicant’s knowledge of the systems that are
installed and operative during the oral and flight portions of the practical
test. The applicant will be required to demonstrate the use of the
autopilot and/or FMS during one of the nonprecision approaches. The
applicant is expected to demonstrate satisfactory automation management
skills.
6. Automation Management
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-15A.


Objective.
To determine the applicant can effectively use the automation
features of the aircraft, including autopilot and flight management
systems, in such a way to manage workload and can remain aware of
the current and anticipated modes and status of the automation. The
applicant should:
1. Explain how to recognize the current mode of operation of the
autopilot/FMS.
2. Explain how to recognize anticipated and unanticipated mode
or status changes of the autopilot/FMS.
3. State at any time during the flight the current mode or status
and what the next anticipated mode or status will be.
4. Use the autopilot/FMS to reduce workload as appropriate for
the phase of flight, during emergency or abnormal operations.
5. Recognize unanticipated mode changes in a timely manner
and promptly return the automation to the correct mode.

Beyond that, it's up the the examiner, and s/he can require the other two approaches (second nonprecision and the one precision) be hand-flown (and in my experience, always will). Further, if the examiner thinks the autopilot is being used as a crutch rather than a tool, you should expect the autopilot to "fail," and for you to be required to complete the ride without it.
 
By the way, can anyone tell me whether there are any guidelines if approaches can be flown on autopilot during the IFR checkride?

From the instrument PTS:

The applicant is expected to utilize an autopilot and/or flight
management system (FMS), if properly installed, during the instrument
practical test to assist in the management of the aircraft. The examiner
is expected to test the applicant’s knowledge of the systems that are
installed and operative during the oral and flight portions of the practical
test. The applicant will be required to demonstrate the use of the
autopilot and/or FMS during one of the nonprecision approaches. The
applicant is expected to demonstrate satisfactory automation management
skills.
If an autopilot is installed, you are expected to use it and know the various operating modes. Also note that one of the non-precision approaches must be completed without the use of the autopilot.

During the briefing before the flight portion of my instrument checkride, the DPE asked that I use the autopilot as much as I can to demonstrate proficiency in its use and said that he would tell me when it became inoperative and that I could not use it. He also mentioned that if I don't use it, he would ask me to engage it at a less opportune time than if I just use it when I deem appropriate.
 
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Finally, with a GPS you can in real time compare your desired track and actual track and make them match, which means your needle never gets far off center to begin with.
Yep, this is especially useful when coming down an ILS in a stiff crosswind. Choosing an intercept course to the localizer, and adjusting crab to match the desired track is a good bunch easier this way. And the change in the actual track alerts you that you will need to change your crab angle long before the needle does.

But... when I first used this technique when I was starting instrument training, I had to explain what I was doing to my CFII, who then proceeded to threaten to turn the GPS off since he considered it cheating. And rightly so, since he was trying to teach me to bracket the desired course using only the steam gauges and the CDI. I might not always be flying an airplane with all the latest toys... it's important to get the basic skills down first.
 
The biggest difference I've seen is not so much the scale of a full deflection but the sensitivity to signal errors. The LPV seems to have slower more consistent deflections than the ILS. I'm sure part of it is due to the processing inside the digital system versus the instantaneous analog display. I believe there is also a good deal due to radio wave propagation in a cluttered environment.

Joe
All TSO C146a (IFR WAAS) GPS navigators have an update rate of at least 5Hz, which IME is fast enough to be insignificant when a human in interpreting the results. Also AFaIK virtually all LOC signals have "curves and divots" in their electronic centerline, something pretty much non-existent with WAAS GPS course guidance. And with the LOC, there is some noticeable crosstalk between aircraft attitude and CDI deflection.

But if you really want to go nuts trying to stay exactly on track, fly a LOC BC all the way to the end of the runway!
 
Also note that one of the non-precision approaches must be completed without the use of the autopilot.
BTW, I wonder if flying such approach manually you are allowed to have Flight Director turned on.
 
BTW, I wonder if flying such approach manually you are allowed to have Flight Director turned on.

Examiner's discretion. On my checkride, we flew the non-precision with raw data without the flight director, but the other two approaches we used it IIRC.
 
Just an update - from the latest Instrument Practical Test Standards FAA-S-8081-4E, an LPV can be used as a nonprecision approach OR a precision approach on the Instrument Practical Test, depending on the DA.

Note: A localizer performance with vertical guidance (LPV) approach
with a decision altitude (DA) greater than 300 feet height above terrain
(HAT) may be used as a nonprecision approach; however, due to the
precision of its glidepath and localizer-like lateral navigation
characteristics, an LPV can be used to demonstrate precision approach
proficiency ( AOA VI TASK B ) if the DA is equal to or less than 300 feet

HAT.
 
A response to my last post reminded me of a question that I've had for quite some time... and I seem to get a different answer from everybody I ask.

With respect to logging an RNAV approach with LPV or LNAV/VNAV minimums, how do you guys define precision vs. non-precision? Chapter 1 of the FARs defines a precision approach as anything with an electronic glideslope, whereas AIM Ch. 5.4.5 (7)(a) defines it a little more specifically in terms of "ICAO Annex 10", and defines an "Approach with Vertical Guidance" separately.

I'm inclined go with the more specific AIM definition of a precision approach, but I thought I would ask because I've never been able to get a definitive answer on this.

I log the type of approach; ILS, VOR, RNAV, etc. I don't log them as precision or nonprecision.
 
I log the type of approach; ILS, VOR, RNAV, etc. I don't log them as precision or nonprecision.
...and as the regs read now, there's no reason to, either, since the FAA dropped its proposal to require a minimum number of precision and a minimum number of nonprecision approaches as part of 6-month currency (but don't bet against that one rearing its head again in the future). The only times precision vs nonprecision is an issue are for taking a practical test for instrument privileges (where LPV may be considered a precision approach for the Precision Approach task) and for determining alternate mins where nonstandard mins are not published (where LPV may not be considered a precision approach).
 
I log the type of approach; ILS, VOR, RNAV, etc. I don't log them as precision or nonprecision.

...and as the regs read now, there's no reason to, either, since the FAA dropped its proposal to require a minimum number of precision and a minimum number of nonprecision approaches as part of 6-month currency (but don't bet against that one rearing its head again in the future). The only times precision vs nonprecision is an issue are for taking a practical test for instrument privileges (where LPV may be considered a precision approach for the Precision Approach task) and for determining alternate mins where nonstandard mins are not published (where LPV may not be considered a precision approach).

As one who is getting close to the IR check ride and therefore will find this of importance in the future, one question I haven't seen addressed (and I may be overthinking this) is how the required approaches must be flown. No question in my mind if the weather is IMC, but in VMC can you fly the approach solo, or must you be under the hood with a safety pilot? In other words, actual or simulated as opposed any way it's flown? I'm assuming actual or simulated conditions, but is this really the requirement?
 
Here's the language
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if:
(1) Use of an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following--
(i) Six instrument approaches.
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks...

So yes, you can practice in VMC solo, but if you want to log them for currency under 61.57, you have to be in actual or using a hood (which will require a safety pilot).
 
As one who is getting close to the IR check ride and therefore will find this of importance in the future, one question I haven't seen addressed (and I may be overthinking this) is how the required approaches must be flown. No question in my mind if the weather is IMC, but in VMC can you fly the approach solo, or must you be under the hood with a safety pilot? In other words, actual or simulated as opposed any way it's flown? I'm assuming actual or simulated conditions, but is this really the requirement?
Let's start by looking at several different terms:


VMC: Visual Meteorological Conditions, as defined by cloud clearance and visibility in 91.155.
IMC: Instrument Meteorological Conditions, which means you don't have the cloud clearance and visibility for VMC.
Simulated instrument conditions: In the sim or using a vision-restricting device.
Actual instrument conditions: This isn't defined in the regs, but here's how the Chief Counsel defined it in 1984, and no change has been issued since.
"Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.
To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.
...
Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

So, keep in mind that it's possible to be in actual instrument conditions while in VMC (as described in the letter above), or to be in in IMC but not in actual instrument conditions, e.g., 1900 feet laterally from the only cloud in an otherwise clear blue sky. Only when you are in actual or simulated instrument conditions can you log instrument time and events -- the fact that it's VMC or IMC is irrelevant.

Now, 61.57(c) says that to count for currency, the approach must be flown in instrument conditions, either simulated or actual, but doesn't specify how much of the approach must be flown in instruments, or even how much must be flown at all (i.e., is FAF-MAP sufficient or must it be IAF-MA Hold?). Again, all we have on that is a Chief Counsel interpretation which says that to count, the approach must be flown all the way to the MAP or runway, and all the way down to MDA/DH (except at ATC direction for safety, e.g., 500-foot restricted low approach for personnel/equipment on the runway, or the like). From a January 28, 1992 FAA Legal Opinion (covers a number of issues not just this one):

Second, you questioned how low a pilot must descend (i.e., minimum descent altitude or decision height or full stop landing) on the six instrument approaches he must log to meet the recent IFR experience requirements specified in FAR Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) (14 CFR Sec. 61.57 (e)(1)(i)). You also asked if an instrument approach "counts" if only part of the approach is conducted in actual IFR conditions. ...
For currency purposes, an instrument approach under Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) may be flown in either actual or simulated IFR conditions. Further, unless the instrument approach procedure must be abandoned for safety reasons, we believe the pilot must follow the instrument approach procedure to minimum descent altitude or decision height.

Note that they avoided discussing how much of the approach must be flown in instrument conditions, and FAA Legal has never to my knowledge been asked this question, and I hope they never are, as I fear the answer they would give might be one we could not stand. That leaves the point at which you break out and can still count it open to your own sense of what provides suitable experience to maintain proficiency to fly it down to mins if you have to next time.

I know some folks who will log the approach if they were hooded or in actual instrument conditions (not the same as IMC -- just flying 1500 feet from a cloud on a clear day constitutes "IMC") for even 10 seconds anywhere between the IAF and the runway. OTOH, I know folks who won't log it unless they're in instrument conditions (simulated or actual) all the way from the IAF to MDA/DH. Further, I've heard various opinions ranging between these extremes from FSDO Inspectors.


That said, I think most folks log the approaches for currency only if they were either:
  1. Hooded from IAF or start of vectors to final all the way to MDA/just above DH, or
  2. Actual instruments at some point between the start of the approach (IAF or VTF) to breaking out inside the FAF.
My personal standard is not to log unless hooded as above, or in actual somewhere between the FAF and the MAP. IOW, I will not log an approach if I go visual before I get to the IAF. I've had some FAA folks say that's right, and others say that's more restrictive than necessary, but I've never had anyone say that wasn't restrictive enough. YMMV.

BTW, while you must the procedure all the way to the MAP, they did say it's OK to fly a restricted low approach if ATC tells you there's "men and equipment on the runway," or other such safety reason. OTOH, you can't count it if you break it off before you get over top of the MAP (e.g., no counting the approach if you break out outside the FAF and abandon the SIAP for a visual approach from there).
 
So yes, you can practice in VMC solo, but if you want to log them for currency under 61.57, you have to be in actual or using a hood (which will require a safety pilot).
Since it's possible to be in actual instrument conditions while in VMC, it is possible to fly them under VFR solo without a hood and still log them for currency. However, those conditions don't happen a lot, and you would be wise to follow the Chief Counsel's recommendation above to note in the Remarks block what made it "actual instrument conditions." And while you're doing this, keep your eyes outside enough to see anyone else out there, 'cause it's VMC and there may be other VFR traffic around.
 
Since it's possible to be in actual instrument conditions while in VMC, it is possible to fly them under VFR solo without a hood and still log them for currency. However, those conditions don't happen a lot, and you would be wise to follow the Chief Counsel's recommendation above to note in the Remarks block what made it "actual instrument conditions." And while you're doing this, keep your eyes outside enough to see anyone else out there, 'cause it's VMC and there may be other VFR traffic around.

Correct.

The point I really wanted to make is that if there"s an approached logged, there had better be some time in the actual or simulated instrument column.
 
Let's start by looking at several different terms:

VMC: Visual Meteorological Conditions, as defined by cloud clearance and visibility in 91.155.
IMC: Instrument Meteorological Conditions, which means you don't have the cloud clearance and visibility for VMC.
Simulated instrument conditions: In the sim or using a vision-restricting device.
Actual instrument conditions: This isn't defined in the regs, but here's how the Chief Counsel defined it in 1984, and no change has been issued since.


So, keep in mind that it's possible to be in actual instrument conditions while in VMC (as described in the letter above), or to be in in IMC but not in actual instrument conditions, e.g., 1900 feet laterally from the only cloud in an otherwise clear blue sky. Only when you are in actual or simulated instrument conditions can you log instrument time and events -- the fact that it's VMC or IMC is irrelevant.

Now, 61.57(c) says that to count for currency, the approach must be flown in instrument conditions, either simulated or actual, but doesn't specify how much of the approach must be flown in instruments, or even how much must be flown at all (i.e., is FAF-MAP sufficient or must it be IAF-MA Hold?). Again, all we have on that is a Chief Counsel interpretation which says that to count, the approach must be flown all the way to the MAP or runway, and all the way down to MDA/DH (except at ATC direction for safety, e.g., 500-foot restricted low approach for personnel/equipment on the runway, or the like). From a January 28, 1992 FAA Legal Opinion (covers a number of issues not just this one):



Note that they avoided discussing how much of the approach must be flown in instrument conditions, and FAA Legal has never to my knowledge been asked this question, and I hope they never are, as I fear the answer they would give might be one we could not stand. That leaves the point at which you break out and can still count it open to your own sense of what provides suitable experience to maintain proficiency to fly it down to mins if you have to next time.

I know some folks who will log the approach if they were hooded or in actual instrument conditions (not the same as IMC -- just flying 1500 feet from a cloud on a clear day constitutes "IMC") for even 10 seconds anywhere between the IAF and the runway. OTOH, I know folks who won't log it unless they're in instrument conditions (simulated or actual) all the way from the IAF to MDA/DH. Further, I've heard various opinions ranging between these extremes from FSDO Inspectors.



That said, I think most folks log the approaches for currency only if they were either:
  1. Hooded from IAF or start of vectors to final all the way to MDA/just above DH, or
  2. Actual instruments at some point between the start of the approach (IAF or VTF) to breaking out inside the FAF.
My personal standard is not to log unless hooded as above, or in actual somewhere between the FAF and the MAP. IOW, I will not log an approach if I go visual before I get to the IAF. I've had some FAA folks say that's right, and others say that's more restrictive than necessary, but I've never had anyone say that wasn't restrictive enough. YMMV.

BTW, while you must the procedure all the way to the MAP, they did say it's OK to fly a restricted low approach if ATC tells you there's "men and equipment on the runway," or other such safety reason. OTOH, you can't count it if you break it off before you get over top of the MAP (e.g., no counting the approach if you break out outside the FAF and abandon the SIAP for a visual approach from there).

Thanks. More detail, but this really got into the area of confusion. How much flying in the clouds is enough if you don't have to go all the way down to minimums and you've answered that. This sounds like one of the few cases where "good enough" really is "good enough". :D
 
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