Precision Power Off Landing

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Landshark

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Hi guys,
I will be competing in the NIFA regional competition this coming week for power off landings. The rules state that power must be cut abeam the target point, a rectangular pattern must be made, and any amount of flaps is fine but once extended, they cannot be retracted at all. No forward slips are allowed. We are allowed to land 100' short or 200' feet long but naturally, the best score will come from landing right on the target line.

I am competing in a Cessna 152 and the runway has a 4 light PAPI. I have been having trouble gauging my height, glide angle, and how far to extend my downwind. My first practice run usually results in a go around because I am too high. That cannot happen during the event because we don't get practice runs, we just get scored on our first 2 or 3 attempts.

I am looking for ways to make adjustments that will either shorten or extend my glide so that I can zone in on the exact spot to flare, not float too much (which is a big penalty), and set it down right on the target line. Since flaps can only be extended and not retracted, they serve to only shorten my glide, not giving me any options if I have over-estimated my touchdown point.

I have been experimenting with using best glide to extend the touchdown point. To shorten the touchdown point, I have been slowing it down to short field approach speed (54 knots) to increase induced drag, mindful of not getting too slow and stalling. This has proven mildly successful but I have only just started practicing that. If best glide in the clean configuration is 60 knots, what would best glide be with full flaps at 30 degrees?

Are there any other tips or techniques that I can try? I wanna do my best and help my school get invited to Nationals.
 
Sounds to me like the best advice would be to just go out and practice it. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 
Sounds like a lot of fun... you know how it all comes together...just practice till you find the groove... then realize it will be all different the day of the event because of existing conditions... all you can hope for is to combine good judgment and stick and rudder skills with a smidge of luck...good luck...
 
Landshark said:
Hi guys,
I will be competing in the NIFA regional competition this coming week for power off landings. The rules state that power must be cut abeam the target point, a rectangular pattern must be made, and any amount of flaps is fine but once extended, they cannot be retracted at all. No forward slips are allowed. We are allowed to land 100' short or 200' feet long but naturally, the best score will come from landing right on the target line.

I am competing in a Cessna 152 and the runway has a 4 light PAPI. I have been having trouble gauging my height, glide angle, and how far to extend my downwind. My first practice run usually results in a go around because I am too high. That cannot happen during the event because we don't get practice runs, we just get scored on our first 2 or 3 attempts.

I am looking for ways to make adjustments that will either shorten or extend my glide so that I can zone in on the exact spot to flare, not float too much (which is a big penalty), and set it down right on the target line. Since flaps can only be extended and not retracted, they serve to only shorten my glide, not giving me any options if I have over-estimated my touchdown point.

I have been experimenting with using best glide to extend the touchdown point. To shorten the touchdown point, I have been slowing it down to short field approach speed (54 knots) to increase induced drag, mindful of not getting too slow and stalling. This has proven mildly successful but I have only just started practicing that. If best glide in the clean configuration is 60 knots, what would best glide be with full flaps at 30 degrees?

Are there any other tips or techniques that I can try? I wanna do my best and help my school get invited to Nationals.
Click to expand...

Back in the day, I used to aim about 50-100 feet short of the threshold, flare when I reached that point, and float onto the runway surface. It's all about energy management.

Bob Gardner
 
You can also use faster than best glide to shorten the landing distance. You can also land at higher than normal speed touchdown(paste it on, landing flat). Also, use carb heat to lower rpms and come down faster. Also get your rpms adjusted lower to come down faster.
 
bobmrg said:
Back in the day, I used to aim about 50-100 feet short of the threshold, flare when I reached that point, and float onto the runway surface. It's all about energy management.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

I did too. :thumbsup:
 
James331 said:
Yeah, I've heard of these, no landing with slips, no changing flaps, can land early with a DQ, meh, not realistic short field work IMHO.
Click to expand...

It's a competition, I don't think the point is real world scenario, it's about precision. Kind of like eight point hesitation turns aren't a practical fighter technique but they show control and precision.
 
Recommendation? Keep a kneeboard with all your numbers for each practice landing. Wind, RPM, speed, altitude. Be crazy precise. Count seconds from power off to turn, count seconds on each leg of the rectangle downwind-base-final, count when each notch of flaps goes in. Count time starting at the numbers. That way you know your variables. When you nail it, you'll have a model to follow, and a sight picture. Then, fly the model. Like a recpie.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A piece of masking tape on the wing strut so you're always the same distance on downwind...if you always start in the same place, the rest gets easier.
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I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you line this tape up with the runway abeam midfield so that you are always the same distance away on downwind? I already kind of do that by lining up the runway with the middle of the strut.
 
whereisrandall said:
Recommendation? Keep a kneeboard with all your numbers for each practice landing. Wind, RPM, speed, altitude. Be crazy precise. Count seconds from power off to turn, count seconds on each leg of the rectangle downwind-base-final, count when each notch of flaps goes in. Count time starting at the numbers. That way you know your variables. When you nail it, you'll have a model to follow, and a sight picture. Then, fly the model. Like a recpie.
Click to expand...

I am going to try and do this in practice tomorrow. Kind of wish I did this all along but have been flying a bit by the seat of my pants.
 
Well the last practice today made me more consistent but I still had some bad ones and a go around.
What do you think is better?
Adding 10 degrees of flaps immediately so that I lose altitude better, my pattern is smaller, and then add in 20 and 30 when the field is made.

Or going for best glide in the clean configuration so that I lose the least altitude, the pattern is larger and then I have more altitude to play with? I have been doing the latter but some times, I am way too high and go around, too low and have to land with no flaps, or sometimes seem high then end up landing short because putting in all 30 flaps at once when further out just made me drop like a rock.

My short field landings seem like a breeze in comparison. I am also getting the sneaking suspicion that best glide with full flaps at less than max gross is somewhere in the 50-54 knot range based on theory and in practice.
 
I have also (many moons ago) competed in the NIFA competition.

All I can say is practice, practice, practice.

I participated in other events, mainly cross country, E6B, and preflight.
I have no clue if those categories even exist anymore.

Good luck!!
 
@Landshark , your biggest loose variable is speed at landing - you *can* land 10 knots fast if you need to. This gives you some wiggle room. If you go full flaps at the top of your final, you're likely comitted to a single spot already, unless your airspeed is way too hot.

My suggestion is to fly it like you would a standard pattern, with one notch on downwind, one on base, then use the last when and if you need on final. Then keep track of what worked for you. If you turned final at 600 ft with flaps 2 holding 60, and hit your spot, now you know than in order to hit the landing spot, you need to hit another spot 30 seconds earlier as you turn final.

For what it's worth, I learned (and I teach) power off landings as standard. as of today I have 892 landings logged, 90% of which are power-off abeam the numbers. The rest are instrument approaches and heavier airplanes that need power to land.
 
Landshark said:
I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you line this tape up with the runway abeam midfield so that you are always the same distance away on downwind? I already kind of do that by lining up the runway with the middle of the strut.
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That's it.
 
Given the parameters, your tools are your flaps, flight path and airspeed.

Airspeed is the most difficult one to predict the results of how it will affect your touchdown point. So best to just get it consistent as you come over the fence. But you can adjust it some during the pattern to help. Just be consistent over the fence. Ideally with a consistent flap setting, but if you think you are going to be a bit short then Don't add more flaps landing no flaps is just fine.

Flaps, 10 degrees won't change much, so probably add 10 pretty early, then keep evaluating your altitude as you fly the approach, say to yourself, am I High, Low, or about right. If you are not saying "about right" then do something to change it. High you can add flaps. High you can also fly a more square base to final leg or even fly your base leg at an angle away from the runway with a steeper turn to final to lose more altitude.

If you say Low on your evaluation you obviously are not going to add flaps. However you can start your turn to final early and/or make a dog leg (chicken leg?) inbetween the base leg and final.

Good luck, have fun, I love doing these kinds of competitions.
 
The hardest part is judging the difference due to the wind.

It will be an advantage to practice at the field where the contest is going to be held. The visual clues from familiarity are an advantage.
 
Kritchlow said:
I have also (many moons ago) competed in the NIFA competition.

All I can say is practice, practice, practice.

I participated in other events, mainly cross country, E6B, and preflight.
I have no clue if those categories even exist anymore.

Good luck!!
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We still have those events. I am also doing the preflight event without any real practice other than what I do every time I fly lol.
I have to say, in my admittedly short flying career (private pilot, 110 hrs), I am having more fun practicing for these landing events than anything else I have done so far.
 
So I guess you can't compete in a Luscombe, or Airknocker, or Cessna 140 or J-3 or.....
Why bother?
 
kyleb said:
A high approach with S turns on final is your friend.
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Cannot do that in NIFA competition. Must be rectangle pattern.

But I agree in a true emergency that is a good strategy.
 
kyleb said:
Looked like a too-obvious loophole in the rules as stated by the OP...
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Yeah, the rules are very tight. There are judges placed off airport to listen for any power increases. It's truly serious competition.
I participated a few years.
 
I've also found something that has helped me with power off spot landings. Save the flaps for the last minnit. If you're a bit low on final,
a quick deployment of full flaps will balloon you up just enough, then allow you to come in steeper to hit the mark.
also, if a bit high, a slipping turn from base to final, will lose a bit of altitude, but IMHO it's still not a forward slip, just an awkward turn.
 
Joshuajayg said:
It's a competition, I don't think the point is real world scenario, it's about precision. Kind of like eight point hesitation turns aren't a practical fighter technique but they show control and precision.
Click to expand...

It's like a landing competition brought to you by the "stabilized approach" crowd.

This is precision





whereisrandall said:
Recommendation? Keep a kneeboard with all your numbers for each practice landing. Wind, RPM, speed, altitude. Be crazy precise. Count seconds from power off to turn, count seconds on each leg of the rectangle downwind-base-final, count when each notch of flaps goes in. Count time starting at the numbers. That way you know your variables. When you nail it, you'll have a model to follow, and a sight picture. Then, fly the model. Like a recpie.
Click to expand...

So what happens when the day of the competition it's say 10f warmer and the winds are different?
Think it's more of how at one you are with your aircraft, how good of a FEEL you have for it, not so much paint by numbers.
 
Is it legal to kill the engine on final to steepen the glide?
 
That really sounds like fun. I'll have to find a similar event in my area (more informal) and give it a go.

Is the target mark typically pretty near the numbers/threshold, or a little farther down?
 
James331 said:
So what happens when the day of the competition it's say 10f warmer and the winds are different?
Think it's more of how at one you are with your aircraft, how good of a FEEL you have for it, not so much paint by numbers.
Click to expand...
You "paint by numbers" to get a baseline. It's a lot easier to make the proper adjustments if you have something to adjust.
 
Shepherd said:
So I guess you can't compete in a Luscombe, or Airknocker, or Cessna 140 or J-3 or.....
Why bother?
Click to expand...
I believe any stock factory airplane is legal. The big money schools have Cessna 150's that look nicer than our 152's. Those ones have the manual flaps that go to 40 degrees.
 
kyleb said:
Is it legal to kill the engine on final to steepen the glide?
Click to expand...
Well, in this thread I am asking for advice about power off so the power is completely cut abeam the target line. If you mean turn off the engine and land it deadstick, I'm not even sure I have the cajones to try that.

Probably not legal anyways because safety is a big part of the competition. Do anything deemed unsafe and you get disqualified. Other than that rule, there is nothing in the rules that forbid it explicitly. Would love to see someone pull that off and hit the chalk line.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You "paint by numbers" to get a baseline. It's a lot easier to make the proper adjustments if you have something to adjust.
Click to expand...

Not really, I mean there are having some ball park numbers, and there's what was mentioned here, where you're timing every turn, notch of flaps and XX, that rote, that's paint by numbers and is a crutch for having a feel and sight picture for the airplane.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
That really sounds like fun. I'll have to find a similar event in my area (more informal) and give it a go.

Is the target mark typically pretty near the numbers/threshold, or a little farther down?
Click to expand...
The perfect landing or target line is the top of the first stripe.

I see other non competitor traffic trying to hit the line so I think everyone is enjoying the spirit of competition and having fun.
 
Today's practice went very well. My coach gave me some advice yesterday that I was able to employ today.

I cut power at 1000 agl, add first notch of flaps immediately, maintain altitude until 70 knots, careful to maintain a heading parallel to the runway. Descend at 70, turn base right at 800 ft using 20 degrees bank, keeping 70 and then judge when I want to add the second notch of flaps.

Turn final and descend at 65 or 70 if I need to get down, or 60 if I need to glide further. Add 30 flaps sometime on final, the sooner the better if I can manage it and flare at 55 right between the threshold and numbers. Then set it down at the top of the first stripe hopefully not too hard.

I have gone from not understanding why I end up going around or landing woefully short to being able to choose landing a bit long or a bit short within the box.

No go arounds today and every attempt was scorable. I have to say a big thank you for emphasizing that going faster would increase my descent angle. It was key in allowing me to adjust landing long or short.

I have also used it to great effect in the power-on landing practice. I think that is just how I will land in the future as well. No more adding power on final. Just a progressive reduction until idle using airspeed to adjust for altitude.
I can't express my gratitude enough for everyone helping me look at this problem from every angle.
 
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Landshark said:
Well, in this thread I am asking for advice about power off so the power is completely cut abeam the target line. If you mean turn off the engine and land it deadstick, I'm not even sure I have the cajones to try that.

Probably not legal anyways because safety is a big part of the competition. Do anything deemed unsafe and you get disqualified. Other than that rule, there is nothing in the rules that forbid it explicitly. Would love to see someone pull that off and hit the chalk line.
Click to expand...

Glider pilots land dead-stick every time. I don't see it as an unsafe maneuver.
 
Thats it for the free-for-all practice. I think there are only 2 official 30 minute practice slots tomorrow left for each person before competition time. I have watched the best schools land. They don't touchdown like I do. My flare arrests the descent completely, I float for 3 or 4 seconds while slowly descending the last 5 feet above the runway and put it down at the appropriate spot.

They come in at normal airspeed and do not do the traditional flare. They just raise the nose slowly and progressively at 10 or 15 feet above the runway and slow the descent rate gradually, slowing down the whole time, and time it so they touchdown at the target line slow and soft. They don't flare and they don't float, just gradually slowing their descent rate and there was no sign of pilot induced oscillation, which is something that can slightly hinder my best attempts and turn them mediocre. Their attempts reminded me of a helicopter landing. Their worst landing was about the same as my average landing.

I am torn between trying that out tomorrow, which is something almost completely new, or refining what I have already learned. What is your experience with those types of landings and is it hard to get the hang of?
 
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