Prebuy inspection vs annual

jhoyt

jhoyt

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Prob discussed ad infinitum but can't find good thread. A Cessna 182 I'm looking at has pending annual this month. Should I have my mechanic basically do an annual as prebuy, or have seller do annual and then have my guy do prebuy? First goal is get best "look" at plane; next is to find most economical way to do it.
 
There is no definition of a "pre buy". There is no required process and no liability on the inspector's part. An annual inspection/return to service process is well defined and the mechanic's responsibilities are clear. The former is worthless, the latter is required. In any purchase the only mechanic's opinion I care about is the one from the guy who'll be taking care of my plane after the purchase.

I know lots of mechanics and I don't know a single one that'll do a "pre purchase" inspection.They'd advise you to get a mechanic of your choice to do a legal annual, even if the seller had just done one.
 
If it's due for annual anyways, have your mechanic do the inspection and have the seller pay for it as part of the deal...buyer's market
 
Stewartb said:
There is no definition of a "pre buy". There is no required process and no liability on the inspector's part. An annual inspection/return to service process is well defined and the mechanic's responsibilities are clear. The former is worthless, the latter is required. In any purchase the only mechanic's opinion I care about is the one from the guy who'll be taking care of my plane after the purchase.

I know lots of mechanics and I don't know a single one that'll do a "pre purchase" inspection.They'd advise you to get a mechanic of your choice to do a legal annual, even if the seller had just done one.
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Annual inspections are required but who says the sellers IA wouldn't blow it off and only do the required items of 43-D?

Does the annual tell you how well the aircraft flys?
Will an annual require that all the radios work?
Will the annual require the aircraft be serviced properly?

There is a multitude of things that the new owner should know that an annual will not tell you.
 
Negotiatiate the cost of the inspection and talk to the seller about how you'll split cost of repairs. And have a walk-away plan in case you can't agree on condition or repairs. Once you make the deal all the problems are yours alone. That's why you want your mechanic to establish what it needs.
 
jhoyt said:
Prob discussed ad infinitum but can't find good thread. A Cessna 182 I'm looking at has pending annual this month. Should I have my mechanic basically do an annual as prebuy, or have seller do annual and then have my guy do prebuy? First goal is get best "look" at plane; next is to find most economical way to do it.
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That really depends upon who his mechanic is? If his mechanic is a quality shop. have them do the Annual, require them to check the things that are important to you.
Cut a check for the agreed price, go get the aircraft, fly it check all systems, if you like the aircraft, give him the check get a bill of sale signed by the guy who is the last registered owner in FAA files. call your insurance company and get a binder for the aircraft, fill out the application for registration and mail it to the FAA along with the signed bill of sail and fly home.

To add, get all the history records that the seller has.
 
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When I bought my 421B the annual was coming due, the seller and I worked out a deal. His shop did the annual, if I bought it we split the cost of the inspection only, he was responsible for the squawks. I know people say don't use the seller's shop, but these guys did a great job and the seller paid for everything except my half of the inspection. I had the option to have my mechanic attend the inspection, but he was busy and anyway it turned out great. The only thing they missed was a couple hoses that they had installed that weren't the proper type. Again, every deal is different. The seller is going to have to pay for an annual if you don't buy it. ;)
 
N747JB said:
When I bought my 421B the annual was coming due, the seller and I worked out a deal. His shop did the annual, if I bought it we split the cost of the inspection only, he was responsible for the squawks. I know people say don't use the seller's shop, but these guys did a great job and the seller paid for everything except my half of the inspection. I had the option to have my mechanic attend the inspection, but he was busy and anyway it turned out great. The only thing they missed was a couple hoses that they had installed that weren't the proper type. Again, every deal is different. The seller is going to have to pay for an annual if you don't buy it. ;)
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Think of it this way, If the aircraft is beautiful, well maintained and flys great who is responsible for that. your guy or his?
 
There was a local IA that always asked prior to do an annual if the owner was planning on selling the plane.. Meaning that he would be more "picky" if he was selling...
 
When I buy (13 now) planes I always offer the asking price and have seller stipulate that he pays for the squawks on a prebuy. Then I convert that to annual. If the plane is clean then the prebuy will show nothing. I have never seen a plane make it out of prebuy without serious >1 AMU issues.
 
I consider a pre buy a minimum,when considering an aircraft. If the squeaks don't look bad or expensive ,I turn it into an annual. If I like the plane I'm open to negotiations on the quacks from the pre buy.
 
When I bought my plane, I did it in three steps before deciding to move through the process to the next step and close the deal. I first had a non related A/P review the logs...once logs looked good, I had him do a basic prebuy inspection to see if it was worth moving forward with...once the prebuy looked good, I had him complete a full annual even though the plane was only 6 month into its due date.

We found a few minor squawks during the annual phase that the seller agreed to pay and a few non airworthy issues that I agreed to pay.

Do not have "his guy" do anything other than a chat about how it was maintained. He has the potential to be much more loyal to the seller than you as the buyer and may not "volunteer" more than he needs to. Get someone that has YOUR interest first and foremost.
 
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Why is it considered good advice to have a mechanic review the logs? I can read. I was also taught about reading logs as part of my PPL checkride prep. I'm not expert, but given the time, I can fumble through it enough if I self-educate on my type of choice.

Secondly, why not have your mechanic present before the button everything up? He can look at what the IA saw and THEN review the updated logbooks for things that were fixed and compare to what he saw. That should tell him if there are any funny smells in Denmark.
 
Same thing.

Actually I view a prebuy as a more lengthy and in depth inspection, different attitude going into it too, I view a prebuy as looking for a reason not to buy the plane, non-airworthy snags, paint chips, smoking rivet, basically a "make my day" type of inspection.

After all, on a annual I know how the plane has been acting, I know who as been flying her and my AP as already been wrenching on the plane before.

Prebuy is just a big question mark, with a owner/operator who I don't know from jack.

I also like to have my AP look at the logs, its good to have a fresh set of eyes, people do miss things.
 
James331 said:
Same thing.

Actually I view a prebuy as a more lengthy and in depth inspection, different attitude going into it too, I view a prebuy as looking for a reason not to buy the plane, non-airworthy snags, paint chips, smoking rivet, basically a "make my day" type of inspection.

After all, on a annual I know how the plane has been acting, I know who as been flying her and my AP as already been wrenching on the plane before.

Prebuy is just a big question mark, with a owner/operator who I don't know from jack.

I also like to have my AP look at the logs, its good to have a fresh set of eyes, people do miss things.
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Too sensible!
 
I've never heard of the seller paying for the prepurchase inspection, but there's always a first time. In any event, if you are serious enough about the plane to do a prepurchase inspection, you know you'll need an annual after you buy it, so I'd suggest having your mechanic start on the annual, and stop at any point where a deal-busting problem is detected.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've never heard of the seller paying for the prepurchase inspection, but there's always a first time. In any event, if you are serious enough about the plane to do a prepurchase inspection, you know you'll need an annual after you buy it, so I'd suggest having your mechanic start on the annual, and stop at any point where a deal-busting problem is detected.
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My last two planes I had the owner cover the pre-buy/annual. If they describe the plane as 9.5/10, needs nothing, blah blah blah, I'll say, you'll have no problem covering the annual/prebuy as I shouldn't take any time right?

Now if the plane is a hangar queen, project, or being sold by a estate, that's a different story.
 
Does your mechanic sign the logbooks as inspected in accordance with a pre-purchase inspection and returned to service? Of course he doesn't. And that's the whole issue, right there.
 
Our shop doesn't refer to a pre-buy as an inspection. It is an evaluation of condition. No formal inspection, no sign-off. Logs reviewed, airplane closely looked over.
 
I think that if the airplane is due for an annual then that provides a perfect opportunity for your mechanic to go there and un-intrusively have a very detailed look at it while it is opened up.
 
Silvaire said:
I think that if the airplane is due for an annual then that provides a perfect opportunity for your mechanic to go there and un-intrusively have a very detailed look at it while it is opened up.
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I like this.
I did this. And bought the plane.

Very convenient and expedient for all and better for the plane (than opening it up twice).
(Of course, this only works for the first prospective buyer...)
 
Ron Levy said:
I've never heard of the seller paying for the prepurchase inspection, but there's always a first time. In any event, if you are serious enough about the plane to do a prepurchase inspection, you know you'll need an annual after you buy it, so I'd suggest having your mechanic start on the annual, and stop at any point where a deal-busting problem is detected.
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That right there is why you would never do your inspection any where but my hangar. You will never have the opportunity to leave my aircraft lying on the floor and walk.
Then I'd charge you to put it back together and repair any damage you caused.
 
Stewartb said:
There is no definition of a "pre buy". There is no required process and no liability on the inspector's part. An annual inspection/return to service process is well defined and the mechanic's responsibilities are clear. The former is worthless, the latter is required. In any purchase the only mechanic's opinion I care about is the one from the guy who'll be taking care of my plane after the purchase.

I know lots of mechanics and I don't know a single one that'll do a "pre purchase" inspection.They'd advise you to get a mechanic of your choice to do a legal annual, even if the seller had just done one.
Click to expand...

You probably can't find a mechanic to do a pre-buy inspection because you can't find one who knows how to do one. It is not something they they teach in A&P school. Most mechanics have never bought an aircraft, hence have no idea what the buyer needs to know. All they know how to do is tell whether the aircraft is minimally airworthy enough to last for another year without crashing. If you want to buy a minimally airworthy aircraft, then an annual is the way to go.

If you want to have an idea of what is going to cost you money over the first two years or so of operation, then you want a pre-buy by a mechanic who has has experience buying, flying, and evaluating the type of aircraft that you are interested in.

To the OP: Have your mechanic look the aircraft over while it is opened up for the annual, assuming he/she knows who to assess the things that are likely to go wrong in the near term of ownership. That means someone who is familiar with the breed. That requirement is why I generally only do pre-purchase consulting on aircraft that I have operated extensively.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why is it considered good advice to have a mechanic review the logs? I can read. I was also taught about reading logs as part of my PPL checkride prep. I'm not expert, but given the time, I can fumble through it enough if I self-educate on my type of choice.
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So you know know to evaluate entries for completeness and can detect signs that something may be hidden? You know who the shady engine overhaul shops were over the last 40 years? You know the differences between a logbook entry that correctly identifies that an AD has been terminated? That is outstanding PPL training you got. I never even learned that in A&P school or in any of my classes all the way through ATP. I had to pick it over over the last 35+ years.
 
Kristin said:
So you know know to evaluate entries for completeness and can detect signs that something may be hidden?
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I want to know how you do that? Completeness is in FAR 43. but the detecting the hidden? how do you do that?
 
Tom-D said:
I want to know how you do that? Completeness is in FAR 43. but the detecting the hidden? how do you do that?
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Completeness may be a requirement, but it is rare. Too often the entry reads something like: "All AD's complied with". Really! All of them. For every aircraft ever made? Only slightly better is: "AD xx-xx-xx complied with." Often there are multiply ways of complying or multiple requirements in an AD, and the entries do not spell out what parts were done.

As for detecting hidden damage, it is pattern recognition based on experience with the type, mostly. On one Comanche I suspected that a pattern of replacing the o-rings in the strut, meant that the strut housing was cracked. Careful inspection proved that to be the case.
 
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