Practicing IFR in IMC without a clearance

Wow...kinda scary. Glad the jet pilot spoke up and no one played plane tag at 2400 ft...
 
That is scary. I hope the ratio of pilots like the one flying the Beechjet to the ones in the 172 is a positive figure.
 
Just amazing. I can't imagine why any pilot would think it is okay to go out and do a practice approach or any approach in IMC without a clearance.
 
EppyGA said:
Just amazing. I can't imagine why any pilot would think it is okay to go out and do a practice approach or any approach in IMC without a clearance.
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I wonder how many of us know of someone who does this...I know one pilot who claims to fly VFR in IMC and claims to have done it long enough to be comfortable with it.
 
I was on my way into my grass strip in NC. As we approached the destination, we were not going to be able to get down in visual conditions, so I used my backup plane and diverted to SVH which has an ILS (and is about 5 miles north). Coming up on PEGTE in the hold-in-loo ZTL calls traffic directly ahead at our altitude. Crikey, I offer to take another turn in the hold until he moves off and that does it. I start down the glideslope and break out about 1500 AGL, high enough to cancel IFR and scud run home.

I found out that it was two flight instructors, one under the hood, and the other IDIOT safety pilot that allowed the pilot to climb, sans clearance up into the clouds.

The other time I wasn't so involved, but I heard an aircraft blundering into IFR (again with an instructor) suddenly decide to change altitude. Fortunately, they were talking to the then Richmond Approach where things got a little testy. The words "Do you know how close you came to hitting another airplane?" is something that I don't want to hear in my vicinity.
 
"Big Sky" theory doesn't work in those places where we try to funnel everybody down into the same chunk of airspace.
 
flyingron said:
I was on my way into my grass strip in NC. As we approached the destination, we were not going to be able to get down in visual conditions, so I used my backup plane and diverted to SVH which has an ILS (and is about 5 miles north)[...].
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I wish I had a backup plane! :wink2: (Not to mention my own grass strip!)

And Jason Blair definitely owes that Beechjet pilot a beer or six!
 
gprellwitz said:
I wish I had a backup plane! :wink2:
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I noticed that too! Maybe his backup plan was a backup plane, like they had anchored to the bottom of some zeppelins...

AirplaneBlimp2.jpg
 
OK, OK, no switching planes in flight. It was a backup plan.
And I share the grass strip with about a couple dozen other people.

If you're in the SVH vicinity a week from Saturday, stop in and get a free burger and the opportunity to enter some flour bombing and spot landing contests. NC26.
 
Clark1961 said:
I wonder how many of us know of someone who does this...I know one pilot who claims to fly VFR in IMC and claims to have done it long enough to be comfortable with it.
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Problem is I know a guy who has an RV that has a 430 and autopilot. He doesn't seem to be scared to fly in low ceiling conditions and has also talked about going through a cloud or two now and then.

He is trying to work on his IR, but I worry that in the interim he will do something not so smart.

BTW, I'm in no way impugning RV's :D
 
I had a VFR pilot tell me just the other day about how he was flying through the clouds to get to his destination. "It's ok because I had a GPS."

I walked away shaking my head. I wish people wouldn't do that. I know sometimes people are reluctant to follow rules that seem silly or arbitrary, but there's a completely obvious reason for VFR cloud clearances and IFR plans. Short of an emergency, i don't think it would even occur to me to fly in IMC without a clearance.
 
I've reported two aircraft I could see between clouds to Center when they came reasonably close on TCAS and Center didn't alert me. In both cases, they weren't on a clearance.
Also consider, someone can be flying just below the clouds when you are IMC and not have required clearance. That happened to me descending on an ILS approach. The other plane was talking to tower outside tower's airspace on the way in. It was San Diego Gillespie on the LOC to 27. They advise VFR traffic to follow the localizer into that field. One descends down in mountainous terrain. As approach cleared me to descend, I got a TCAS alert of traffic below about 500 feet and slightly ahead. I asked Approach if they had the traffic and they did, but weren't talking to them. Approach cleared me lower, but asked to hold altitude until ahead of that traffic. As I got slightly ahead and began my descent, I was too high to continue a normal approach, but broke out in the clear almost right over the airport. Approach had me hold just a bit, then, cleared me to circle down. When I contacted tower, I asked if they had someone arrive just ahead of me. A 172 had just come in on the localizer. After I landed, I called tower and chatted asking how someone could come in right under me when I was IMC. Of course, they weren't responsible for the other aircraft's cloud clearance. I didn't make an issue of it, but did submit the safety form so others would be aware of what happened. Posted it on here several years ago.

Best,

Dave
 
I know of a DR to have done a flight into IMC with the electrical system turned off because of a failed alternator using vacuum AI and ipad. No clearance, no transponder, no radio.......


The kicker, he departed knowing this was his plan because the alternator failed on the way down to destination and he chose to return with it still inop.
 
While we're close to the topic, anyone ever pop out of a legitimate approach to an airport in the middle of nowhere to find VFR scud runners out in Echo airspace before?

Jesse was the first to point out to me that a huge number of airports getting GPS approaches that never had one in the old system, aren't getting airspace cutouts down from overlying controlled airspace.

Some guy puttering around in one-mile vis, clear of clouds, could ruin you're whole day on that spiffy new GPS approach to an airport in the flyover States.

It's not limited to only GPS approaches, of course,,but there are a lot of them to places that never had approaches before. Joe scud runner may not be used to seeing anyone pop out of the clag at these places.
 
That's the way it's always been. Most places don't qualify for a surface area so the best you have is a 700' transition area which means you can bust out at 500' and find VFR traffic.
 
flyingron said:
That's the way it's always been. Most places don't qualify for a surface area so the best you have is a 700' transition area which means you can bust out at 500' and find VFR traffic.
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Right. Just a lot more approaches out there today to lots more airports in that situation.
 
denverpilot said:
Jesse was the first to point out to me that a huge number of airports getting GPS approaches that never had one in the old system, aren't getting airspace cutouts down from overlying controlled airspace.
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Can you identify those airports?
 
roncachamp said:
Can you identify those airports?
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Sorry not sure what you're asking.

Looking it over, my description is screwed up. You have Class E at 700' AGL over the majority of the rural stuff with approaches.

Ron's description covers the Class E problem. If the person underneath is running around the pattern in MVFR you may be surprised by them.

I may have also mixed in the problem of Class G on GPS Direct routings. No airway, so the guy scudding along, traversing the front edge of your broken layer you're about to pop out of, is doing the mile of vis, clear of clouds thing. How clear of the clouds? What's your reaction time going to be popping out.

There's a lot of places where someone else may be right in your path as you transition to VMC. It doesn't have to be someone flying in IMC who'll ruin your whole day. The pilot just beyond the end of the next cloud who's legal VFR in Class G might be who you'll hit.

This story is an eye opener too, though.
 
denverpilot said:
Right. Just a lot more approaches out there today to lots more airports in that situation.
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Previously you wrote; "Jesse was the first to point out to me that a huge number of airports getting GPS approaches that never had one in the old system, aren't getting airspace cutouts down from overlying controlled airspace."

An area without any instrument approaches should have a Class E floor of 1200' AGL or higher. When an IAP is created in such an area Class E airspace should be established at 700' AGL, or at the surface. So when you say airports are getting approaches but not "getting airspace cutouts down from overlying controlled airspace", do you mean they don't have controlled airspace lower than 1200' AGL?
 
denverpilot said:
Sorry not sure what you're asking.

Looking it over, my description is screwed up. You have Class E at 700' AGL over the majority of the rural stuff with approaches.
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An earlier message of yours implied IAPs were being established without the necessary controlled airspace. Later messages indicate that's not the case. I asked because it has happened before, see:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=52017&highlight=plentywood

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=62930&highlight=plentywood

Ron's description covers the Class E problem. If the person underneath is running around the pattern in MVFR you may be surprised by them.

I may have also mixed in the problem of Class G on GPS Direct routings. No airway, so the guy scudding along, traversing the front edge of your broken layer you're about to pop out of, is doing the mile of vis, clear of clouds thing. How clear of the clouds? What's your reaction time going to be popping out.
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One mile and clear of clouds applies only within 1200' of the surface, and only during the day. An IFR aircraft shouldn't be popping out of a cloud that low.
 
roncachamp said:
One mile and clear of clouds applies only within 1200' of the surface, and only during the day. An IFR aircraft shouldn't be popping out of a cloud that low.
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Well usually not, but the minimum IFR altitude in non-mountainous areas is only 1000 AGL.
 
flyingron said:
Well usually not, but the minimum IFR altitude in non-mountainous areas is only 1000 AGL.
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No, it's 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of four NM of the course, including those 200' AGL obstacles that don't have to be charted. In addition, the cruising altitude must be a cardinal altitude correct for the direction of flight, that will probably move the flight up a few hundred feet.
 
While it appears this guy was in E you could still encounter someone flying IMC in class G not talking to ATC or on a flight plan. Completely legal if rated and equiped. You could also have a helicopter poking around with less than 1 mile vis and CoC. Keep an eye out. :D
 
roncachamp said:
No, it's 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of four NM of the course, including those 200' AGL obstacles that don't have to be charted. In addition, the cruising altitude must be a cardinal altitude correct for the direction of flight, that will probably move the flight up a few hundred feet.
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Unlikely, but possible. If you are over ground at 800 AGL, ...
 
Velocity173 said:
While it appears this guy was in E you could still encounter someone flying IMC in class G not talking to ATC or on a flight plan. Completely legal if rated and equiped. You could also have a helicopter poking around with less than 1 mile vis and CoC. Keep an eye out. :D
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For practical matters while that is possible, the FAA doesn't condone it. You're free to fly in class G without a clearance, but they consider it reckless if you're not on your way to an issued clearance in controlled airspace.
 
flyingron said:
For practical matters while that is possible, the FAA doesn't condone it. You're free to fly in class G without a clearance, but they consider it reckless if you're not on your way to an issued clearance in controlled airspace.
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Yeah I know. I'm aware of the guy found guilty of 91.13 flying airport to airport IMC in G. Doesn't mean it isn't still going on though.
 
Velocity173 said:
While it appears this guy was in E you could still encounter someone flying IMC in class G not talking to ATC or on a flight plan. Completely legal if rated and equiped. You could also have a helicopter poking around with less than 1 mile vis and CoC. Keep an eye out. :D
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Not where the floor of controlled airspace is 1200' AGL or lower.
 
flyingron said:
Unlikely, but possible. If you are over ground at 800 AGL, ...
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I think you mean over ground that has a surface elevation of 800 MSL. 1200 AGL there would be in controlled airspace at 2000 MSL.
 
flyingron said:
For practical matters while that is possible, the FAA doesn't condone it. You're free to fly in class G without a clearance, but they consider it reckless if you're not on your way to an issued clearance in controlled airspace.
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Only in areas where the floor of controlled airspace is 1200 AGL or lower.
 
My comments were all jacked up. It's been a week...

You guys get the idea. Point was, there's all sorts of stupid people one can run into IMC.

Some might not even be doing anything illegal. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
My comments were all jacked up. It's been a week...

You guys get the idea. Point was, there's all sorts of stupid people one can run into IMC.

Some might not even be doing anything illegal. ;)
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They might not be doing anything specifically prohibited, but don't you think the FAA would take a dim view of someone puttering along in the pattern at 600 AGL with a sub-1000 AGL ceiling, when the published pattern altitude is 1000 AGL? In case of a near miss (or heaven forbid, a mid-air) with someone breaking out at MDA on a RNAV approach, wouldn't you expect the scudrunner to get nailed with at least a careless/reckless?
 
Most airports do not have a published traffic pattern altitude and nothing says you have to fly a pattern, much less at the published altitude.
 
Or, you might run into a para glider or PPG:

 
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There are plenty of airports with LPV approaches that have ILS like minimums but do not have the Class E to the floor like many airports with ILS's have. There are probably airpots with ILS's that do not have class E to the floor but I'm too lazy to go look.

So there you can be -- coming down the LPV -- and you may break out at 500 AGL in class G airspace where there may be a legal VFR airplane just below the cloud deck that you run into (since they only need to remain clear of clouds). Comforting, eh?

And yes.. there are people whom fly VFR in those conditions -- like pipeline patrol.
 
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There are many airports with ILS's that don't have surface areas either. The type of instrument approach is not a criteria for establishing a surface area. You have to have an approach and weather reporting to get one (and AWOSs do not necessarily qualify).
But LPV/ILS isn't a unique much the issue. You're unlikely to run into a scud runner busting out of a 300 overcast. The scary ones is coming out of the soup at roughly pattern altitude.
 
jesse said:
And yes.. there are people whom fly VFR in those conditions -- like pipeline patrol.
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And cropdusters. Out here they pretty much don't ever worry about anything more than 200' above the surface.
 
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