PPL still the way to go under MOSAIC?

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DeadStick

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DeadStick
I’ve been looking into getting my PPL but the proposed changes under MOSAIC have me wondering if that’s still the right path.

Medical cert isn’t an issue, and I am not doing it for a career. I also can’t imagine many times when I’ll need to fly with more than one other person.

Are there other reasons to still go the PPL route that I’m not considering? I feel like the cost savings of getting a Sport Pilot cert would be better spent on the down payment for a new Sling with a 915is.
 
I'm a big fan of SP in general BUT... the reality is it probably doesn't save that much. Yes, the required hours are less, but almost nobody does it in the minimum hours anyway. There are some things you don't need to receive training in, but the rental cost of new LSA aircraft is often as much or more than legacy training aircraft like C150/152/172.

OTOH if you have a local school with LSAs (there aren't that many), go for it... you can start working towards SP and switch track to PP along the way if it makes sense at that time.
 
You get a lot more with PPL. You can always not leverage it later, but you're less likely to go back to training to get the extras, and it'll be a bigger pain.
 
Dana said:
the rental cost of new LSA aircraft is often as much or more than legacy training aircraft like C150/152/172.
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I have a sample size of one school, but the two LSAs at my school are slightly more expensive than the ancient 150s, but significantly cheaper than the 172s. And the LSAs have much nicer avionics, with fuel burn much better than a 172 and cruise speed higher than the 150s. So, to me, the tight weight restrictions are really the only downside to the LSAs I train in compared to the classic trainer aircraft. I'd much rather be in a Bristell than a 150 anyday.

But I do agree with the other posters that a PPL wouldn't be significantly harder than getting a sport license. And we don't actually know what the final version of MOSAIC will actually look like. We may still be somewhat arbitrarily restricted as to which airframes we're allowed to fly based on whatever arcane rules they're certain to include in the final rules.
 
The only way you really save money is to get your SP and stop flying. If you keep flying you'll spend the money anyways. If they are available, there is no good reason not to do your PPL in an LSA though if they are cheaper.

I like SP a lot, gets you flying PIC quicker and allows you to do most of what you want. PPL can be a grind, a good path is SP, fly a fun 30-50 hours to break the grind and go back for the PPL.

Regardless, get a Class 3 medical while the cert is not a problem to keep basicmed open in the future.
 
If medical isn't an issue: get PPL. You won't regret it. I started out on SP path and switched.

SP is a wonderful option (and MOSAIC makes it even better) but only really for those with medical hurdles IMHO. The extra time and money spent on training for PPL is negligible in the long run.
 
I got SP first, then went back a couple of years later for PP. No regrets doing it that way.

I'll offer a slightly different viewpoint from those above, just for your consideration. The dropout rate in pilot training is very high. Even if you're planning to get PP, if you'll train in a LSA you'll have the option of taking the SP checkride part way through. That way, if you don't finish off PP (life gets in the way, money problem, whatever) you'll at least have a pilot certificate and be able to fly airplanes VFR anywhere in the US. And you could always go back later and finish off Private. Sorta like getting an Associate's degree en route to your Bachelor's; you still come away with something tangible that won't ever expire, even if you don't reach the ultimate goal.

MOSAIC makes this approach even more attractive, since the number and capability of available airplanes will increase.
 
RyanB said:
Sport pilot only makes sense if you can’t qualify for anything more medically wise.
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Not at all. I have a PP, SP wasn't an option when I learned to fly, but I "exercised Sport Pilot privileges" with no medical for some years simply because the airplanes I owned were LSA compliant so why bother with a medical, not because I had any medical issues. When I bought the Hatz, which is just a bit too heavy for LSA but otherwise compliant, I got one medical as required and then went Basicmed. If Mosaic raises the weight limit I may not bother with even basicmed any more.
 
Is MOSAIC more than a pipe dream yet?
 
The problem with Mosaic is there is zero benefit to any politician to approve it, but many ways to make arguments against it.

The "zero benefit" references the fact that those affected to benefit (us) represent a very small voting minority.

With all the negative press related to aviation in the recent months I don't see this getting approved for a very long time, if ever.

If it does, I suspect anything of value will be stripped from it.
 
Half Fast said:
Remember it’s not just weight. There’s also a stall speed requirement.
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On my plane, the gross weight is the only thing that makes it non LSA.
Lndwarrior said:
The problem with Mosaic is there is zero benefit to any politician to approve it, but many ways to make arguments against it.
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In this case it's bureaucrats, not politicians, so it still has a chance.
 
Lndwarrior said:
The "zero benefit" references the fact that those affected to benefit (us) represent a very small voting minority.
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“Us” don’t matter at all, other than as airplane purchasers. MOSAIC is about creating a market for lighter, more capable planes, mostly of foreign manufacture. Letting a few Cessnas and Pipers be flown under Sport rules is incidental and not the primary goal.
 
If your plan is to buy a light sport, you can get the SP ticket ,and then worry about purchasing a bigger airplane when the rules are published. You can always go for the PP LATER.
 
Thanks everyone, this is really helpful advice! Here's a recap of what I'm thinking now:
- Since I can pass my Medical now, getting it done now keeps my options open for the future.
- There is a flight school nearby that uses LSA's for training, and it's significantly cheaper wet rental rates (~$40 cheaper per hour, so ~$2k savings assuming 40 hrs of training time for PPL or ~$1k if I stop at SP).
- BUT that school is a 30-40 min drive instead of 15-20 for the closest flight school.
- Current LSA's would work for training, but useful loads don't fit my ideal mission of 1-3 hr flights with 1 Pax and an overnight bag. Mosaic LSA's would be perfect, and many current LSA's are already certified at higher Gross Weights in Europe/Australia, but there's no telling when these will come to market or whether manufacturers will go through the work to increase the GW's on their existing aircraft.

Overall, I think the LSA flight school might be the way to go because it would save around 20% on my training costs. They also have a leaseback program, and while I'd need to carefully comb over the details this could be a good path. I can afford a lightly used, modern LSA (think Tecnam P2008 or TL-Sirius 3000) which would be perfect for my and my wife's training needs over the next 1-2 years. After that point, I could resell the plane to trade-up, or if the leaseback is profitable, I could continue it while saving for my "forever plane". I'm not expecting to turn a profit, instead it would be a way to defray the costs of getting two people licensed while ensuring access to a modern plane for training.
 
DeadStick said:
Thanks everyone, this is really helpful advice! Here's a recap of what I'm thinking now:
- Since I can pass my Medical now, getting it done now keeps my options open for the future.
- There is a flight school nearby that uses LSA's for training, and it's significantly cheaper wet rental rates (~$40 cheaper per hour, so ~$2k savings assuming 40 hrs of training time for PPL or ~$1k if I stop at SP).
- BUT that school is a 30-40 min drive instead of 15-20 for the closest flight school.
- Current LSA's would work for training, but useful loads don't fit my ideal mission of 1-3 hr flights with 1 Pax and an overnight bag. Mosaic LSA's would be perfect, and many current LSA's are already certified at higher Gross Weights in Europe/Australia, but there's no telling when these will come to market or whether manufacturers will go through the work to increase the GW's on their existing aircraft.

Overall, I think the LSA flight school might be the way to go because it would save around 20% on my training costs. They also have a leaseback program, and while I'd need to carefully comb over the details this could be a good path. I can afford a lightly used, modern LSA (think Tecnam P2008 or TL-Sirius 3000) which would be perfect for my and my wife's training needs over the next 1-2 years. After that point, I could resell the plane to trade-up, or if the leaseback is profitable, I could continue it while saving for my "forever plane". I'm not expecting to turn a profit, instead it would be a way to defray the costs of getting two people licensed while ensuring access to a modern plane for training.
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I'd also think about if you'll want instrument or night flight later. Since the medical is easy for you, I'd knock out your PPL and know you have the option (as other's mentioned) to take the SP checkride before your reach the PPL checkride point, if you want. But with a 3rd class medical and a PPL, you can go up from there, stay there, or move "down" if you will to SP limitations as the situation fits what you want in life. I wouldn't waste the money on the SP checkride unless I thought I wouldn't be able to complete the PPL quickly. The checkrides are expensive, as well as all the scheduling/etc.

On flight schools, I would see if between their availability (planes+instructors) and your ability to drive there, will you train more often at one vs the other. That's the key to getting through the training in an efficient manner.

Lastly, I would TRULY evaluate the flight school on where will I get better instruction? Who has the best safety culture and will teach me, in primacy, the safest habits. That is absolutely worth a couple grand in savings.
 
Half Fast said:
I got SP first, then went back a couple of years later for PP. No regrets doing it that way.

I'll offer a slightly different viewpoint from those above, just for your consideration. The dropout rate in pilot training is very high. Even if you're planning to get PP, if you'll train in a LSA you'll have the option of taking the SP checkride part way through. That way, if you don't finish off PP (life gets in the way, money problem, whatever) you'll at least have a pilot certificate and be able to fly airplanes VFR anywhere in the US. And you could always go back later and finish off Private. Sorta like getting an Associate's degree en route to your Bachelor's; you still come away with something tangible that won't ever expire, even if you don't reach the ultimate goal.

MOSAIC makes this approach even more attractive, since the number and capability of available airplanes will increase.
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Day VFR.
 
DeadStick said:
Current LSA's would work for training, but useful loads don't fit my ideal mission of 1-3 hr flights with 1 Pax and an overnight bag.
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- If current SP/LSA inadequate, agreed. Better to get a PVT pilot certificate.

Mosaic LSA's would be perfect
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- better not to rely on what may not happen (as currently proposed). For whatever aircraft used for training, get a PVT certificate.


At NPRM stage, it appears Mosaic remains a ‘what if’ and ‘when if’.
If a class 3 medical will be no problem, then …
When considering SP or PPL, go for option which is known to meet mission needs: PVT pilot certificate.
 
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Why not build a custom plan with one of the instructors where they teach you the basics first (pattern work through solo) and then you decide if you want to continue on to a PPL or transition to a light sport plane and finish out your sport pilot license. It would give you another 6 months to see if things are actually moving forward on mosaic.
 
I would bet that it will take you just as many flight hours to pass a sport checkride as a private checkride. Savings nil.

I started out doing sport, I am now commerial single, multi, instrument, and seaplane.
 
As others have said, if you don't have any issues with the medical, the only reason to get sport pilot is if you really need to reach "a finish line" with limited time or money. The hardest part of both SP and PPL training is learning to take off, fly, and land safely and pointed in the right direction. The added details in PPL aren't particularly arduous, unless you're allergic to VORs or something.

As others have said, the benefits may be somewhat intangible. Maybe you want to think about instrument 10 years from now, and don't want to schedule yet another check ride. Maybe you're visiting the UK, and having an internationally recognized pilot certificate lets you sign up for a "lesson" to fly a Spitfire, while a sport pilot license gets you a "what is this?" Maybe some high-profile idiot crashes a plane with a politician in it as soon as MOSAIC gets approved and they un-approve it. Maybe there's that one time when you want to take a third person along.

Basically, even if SPL fits your needs now, the "lift" to get from there to PPL is minor enough that I would only recommend it if:
1. The medical is going to be a problem, even if just a little bit.
2. You're getting to the end of training and running out of time or money, and want to "stop the clock" with a certificate.
3. For some reason you only have access to light sport instructors who aren't CFIs, and it's a giant hurdle to get a CFI.
 
This has all been great advice, so thank you to everyone who contributed!

It does sound like putting in the small amount of extra effort and $ now will pay off down the road. But should I still consider training in an LSA?

As I said, the LSA school I'm looking at is offering new, glass panel, FADEC controls and more at a lower hourly rate than the nearest club with their early 2000's steam gauge 172. And while the LSA school is farther away, the airfield is way less busy and the airspace is a lot less hectic.

So am I missing something by opting for the cheaper, newer LSA over the standard 172 trainer? I get that with so many 172's around it is important for any pilot to know how to handle them, but I don't see myself ever owning one and have been told it's best to learn on something closest to what you plan to fly.
 
A Private certificate earned in an LSA is just as valid as one learned in any other plane. If the LSAs near you are newer and less expensive, there’s no reason not to take that route.

LSAs can be more challenging to land than conventional trainers, and you may have more cancellations due to winds, depending on your local weather. If you learn in an LSA, you will probably find the transition to a 172 or Cherokee to be simple. I trained in a Tecnam LSA and rented for a couple of years before getting my private, and I found the transition to a Cherokee 140 to be a non-issue. After having learned to land an LSA, the Cherokee felt like it had an auto-land feature.
 
Criteria to consider (as suggested), train with the flight school which offers good, solid instruction and good CFIs.
If both schools are similar/adequate, then sure. No reason not to train for PVT certificate in LSA.

It appears whether you complete 'all' training for a PVT certificate in LSA might depend on aircraft equipment (lights, etc.)

Others with first-hand experience for training/testing in LSA for PVT pilot certificate may verify whether info in Flying magazine remains accurate. (?)
https://www.flyingmag.com/private-pilot-training-lsa/
 
A LSA vs. a C-172 is like a Miata vs. a minivan.

Me, I'd choose the Miata. It may not carry four people but it's a whole lot more fun.
 
Dana said:
A LSA vs. a C-172 is like a Miata vs. a minivan.

Me, I'd choose the Miata. It may not carry four people but it's a whole lot more fun.
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But as your ONLY car?

I owned a 2 seater as my only car, but that was during HS and college. I have owned 2 seaters since then, but NOT as my only car.
 
Half Fast said:
That’s a pretty apt comparison.
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More accurate than you may realize at first blush. Miata, properly pronounced is me-oughta as in "Miata bought a bigger airplane!" :biggrin:
 
Daleandee said:
More accurate than you may realize at first blush. Miata, properly pronounced is me-oughta as in "Miata bought a bigger airplane!" :biggrin:
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According to Miata fans, the name Miata is actually an acronym:

Miata Is Always The Answer
 
DeadStick said:
According to Miata fans, the name Miata is actually an acronym:

Miata Is Always The Answer
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Or ... Maybe It Ain't The Answer! :dunno:

In full disclosure I'd love to own one myself. But I'd have to give up one of my current collection and I ain't there yet ...
 
Daleandee said:
Or ... Maybe It Ain't The Answer! :dunno:

In full disclosure I'd low to own one myself. But I'd have to give up one of my current collection and I ain't there yet ...
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Haha, I would also love to own one but would have to saw off my legs below the knee to fit in one. Which would probably make driving it hard.
 
The Miata was "my" only car for quite awhile, but I did have access to my wife's car. But you need a car, most of don't need an airplane.
 
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