Power on stalls, full flaps

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
2,445
Location
Northern NV
Display Name
Display name:
DesertNomad
I am wondering how many people here were trained in (or even just shown by their CFI), power-on stalls with full flaps (basically a go-around configuration). Were you in a Cessna or Cherokee (or something else)? It seems many people have never done these. The ACS specifies a departure configuration which is usually no flaps and I think most people never experience anything else.
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure we only did them in no flaps landing configuration. But very early in lessons like first or second did several full flaps slow flight to full power to get early respect for amount of yoke forward pressure needed to over come the trim. Never expected to have to push that hard.
 
I did when transitioning to my 180. Lots of turning stalls with flaps, too. We also did stop and goes using full flaps and I wasn’t allowed to reset trim.
 
I have trained power on stalls with flaps at max recommended for best angle of climb. In my old Cherokee that was 2/3 flaps and in my Mooney that is 1/3 flaps. Neither of these aircraft is recommended to climb with full flaps. I have also trained for transition to climb from full flaps for go around.
 
Good for a student to know what it feels like to try and go around with full flaps. Do it not to train in how, but rather how to recognize what's going on. Could save a bit of bent metal.
 
In some airplanes the shortest takeoffs are with full flaps. Not the safest if you haven’t trained for it, but if you have? It can be very useful.
 
My CFI had me do a go- around with full flaps while under the hood. Then he removed the fuse?

For PPL !
 
DesertNomad said:
I am wondering how many people here were trained in (or even just shown by their CFI), power-on stalls with full flaps (basically a go-around configuration). Were you in a Cessna or Cherokee (or something else)? It seems many people have never done these. The ACS specifies a departure configuration which is usually no flaps and I think most people never experience anything else.
Click to expand...
CFI had me do them in C182 during a rental checkout. He called them ‘trim stalls.’
 
Magman said:
My CFI had me do a go- around with full flaps while under the hood. Then he removed the fuse?

For PPL !
Click to expand...
Well that’s something that could happen. They get stuck down for some reason. But under the hood?. Not sure I see the point in that.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Curious, which airplanes are you referring to?
Click to expand...
My 180 and my Cub both come to mind. Both have big engines so plenty of power.

Tail draggers demonstrate flaps very well. The tail is much easier to lift and hold up with flaps out. My normal takeoff in my Cub is 3 notches of flaps and full nose down trim. If using more than 2 notches in the Cessna I roll trim forward but not to full. In either plane when the tail comes up, I lower the tail with elevator, and they fly. It happens very quickly in my Cub.
 
Stewartb said:
My 180 and my Cub both come to mind. Both have big engines so plenty of power.

Tail draggers demonstrate flaps very well. The tail is much easier to lift and hold up with flaps out. My normal takeoff in my Cub is 3 notches of flaps and full nose down trim. If using more than 2 notches in the Cessna I roll trim forward but not to full. In either plane when the tail comes up, I lower the tail with elevator, and they fly. It happens very quickly in my Cub.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

I’ve never seen that in the flight manual on the Cessna, or in the limitations. Can’t answer to the Cub.
 
Airplanes can do lots of things not in the manual. Thank goodness for good instructors!
 
Stewartb said:
To duplicate the control force required in a full flap go-around.
Click to expand...
Yup. Gotta push hard in the 180/185. One hopes that the seat and rails are in good condition.
 
Magman said:
My CFI had me do a go- around with full flaps while under the hood. Then he removed the fuse?

For PPL !
Click to expand...
Not smart. If there was a sudden need to raise the flaps, you'd be out of luck.
 
luvflyin said:
Well that’s something that could happen. They get stuck down for some reason.
Click to expand...
They get stuck down usually because the limit switches on the flap actuator get contaminated with grease or oil from mechanics dousing the jackscrew with it. They like to spray LPS or whatever on it. The up-limit switch is the critical one; it closes as the flaps start coming down so that the flap motor will run to raise the flaps until the switch opens at the retraction limit. If the down-limit switch is affected, the flaps won't come down.
 
We did a lot of power-on full-flap stalls in the Cessnas. It's hard on the flap skins, causing cracking at the trailing edge rivets. That skin flexes a lot with the prop blast pounding on it.
 
Stewartb said:
Airplanes can do lots of things not in the manual. Thank goodness for good instructors!
Click to expand...

LOL. Like the guys who’s famous last words are “Hey watch this!”

BTW, the TCDS sheet for the C-180 only shows a maximum of 20 degrees for takeoff. Operating outside of that is outside the certification limits of the aircraft, essentially making every takeoff above 20 degrees making you a test pilot. I could list out the other areas of disregard, but I think you know that. ;)
 
Last edited:
Not at all. If all anyone does is fly by POH? They’re missing much of what their airplane is capable of. Mountain training, STOL training, etc are good for guys who’ll fly in those environments.
 
Stewartb said:
Not at all. If all anyone does is fly by POH? They’re missing much of what their airplane is capable of. Mountain training, STOL training, etc are good for guys who’ll fly in those environments.
Click to expand...

Which regulation gives the pilot the authority to operate outside the limitations of the POH (TCDS)? Is there an exception buried in the regulations for mountain flying, STOL, etc?
 
I didn’t say I like it even though there was a VERY long runway.

Finding another fuse was not easy.

I’ve often felt that an “ Emergency UP “ circuit could be a good thing. Flaps stuck in Full could be a real hazard.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Which regulation gives the pilot the authority to operate outside the limitations of the POH (TCDS)? Is there an exception buried in the regulations for mountain flying, STOL, etc?
Click to expand...
What limitations are you referring to? Standard procedures are not limitations.
 
I got them in a Tripacer & C-172. My CFI (WW2 P-40 pilot) said "Man up and quit bitchin."
 
Stewartb said:
What limitations are you referring to? Standard procedures are not limitations.
Click to expand...

Type Certificate Data Sheet. It list the limitations of flight controls.

What limitations does the POH list for take off flap settings?

Does the POH list full flap takeoffs as a standard procedure?
 
luvflyin said:
Well that’s something that could happen. They get stuck down for some reason. But under the hood?. Not sure I see the point in that.
Click to expand...
My guess is it's just a form of distraction while demonstrating the potential issue at the same time. Nothing particularity unique about the flaps and the hood.

The last time I was really current flying it happened to me. Paying what I considered to be an over priced rental rate for a cessna 177RG, and the flaps popped the breaker.
I flagged it....and the following weekend when I returned to fly again they say it's fixed.... well guess what...it wasn't. That was the staw that broke the back so to speak... it ultimately lead to my being a severely rusty pilot. I decided I was paying far too much money to rent planes I had low confidence in ....that I could not keep configured how I liked, weren't available when I wanted to, etc....
and I decided the only way it makes sense to keep flying is to get my own... so I hatched a plan, set sites on getting a cessna 170....just getting started figuring it out....but then got laid off from work....new job, kids happened, and life got in the way....
 
Doc Holliday said:
Type Certificate Data Sheet. It list the limitations of flight controls.

What limitations does the POH list for take off flap settings?

Does the POH list full flap takeoffs as a standard procedure?
Click to expand...
Flap speed in my Cessna is 90mph. THAT’s a limitation. No problem.
 
Last edited:
Stewartb said:
Flap speed in my Cessna is 90mph. THAT’s a limitation. No problem.
Click to expand...

But so is flight control operation. The TCDS Control Surface Movements, Take Off 0 & 20, Landing 30 & 40.

I don’t have a POH handy, but how does it address flap settings on takeoff?
 
Found an online pdf of a Cessna 180K flight manual. Under Section 2 “Limitations”, page 2-8 Other Limitations it states

Flap Limitations

Approved Take Off Range 0 to 20. (degrees)
Approved Landing Range 30 to 40 (degrees)

Page 4-15 Normal Procedures states under Normal Take Off Procedures

“Flap Deflections of 30 degrees and 40 degrees are not approved for Take Off.”
 
Last edited:
Yep, that’s the placard section. But in other areas it states flap deflection and speed limitations. I’m not worried about the flap lever placard. That’s there for standard ops. You can argue all you want about what you don’t know and don’t fly. I offered comments about what I do know and fly.
 
Stewartb said:
Yep, that’s the placard section. But in other areas it states flap deflection and speed limitations. I’m not worried about the flap lever placard. That’s there for standard ops. You can argue all you want about what you don’t know and don’t fly. I offered comments about what I do know and fly.
Click to expand...

See the post above yours.

And I do understand limitations and why aircraft have them.
 
I’ve been trained in different scenarios but generally power on stall is a take off departure stall simulation in the take off state, usually no flaps.
 
mandm said:
I’ve been trained in different scenarios but generally power on stall is a take off departure stall simulation in the take off state, usually no flaps.
Click to expand...
Then there's the scenario of an aborted landing with full flaps. Better know how to handle the airplane. It will stall at a lower deck angle with full flaps.
 
I will teach them in Bonanzas on the right occasion. A slightly out of rig or uncoordinated plane will drop a wing precipitously, so I need to be on guard when doing it (similar attention level to doing Vmcs in Barons). But then, learning that about the new plane is why I teach it, doubly because a landing configured Bonanza is trimmed very nose high so it's a risk that needs discussion.
 
Stewartb said:
Yep, that’s the placard section. But in other areas it states flap deflection and speed limitations. I’m not worried about the flap lever placard. That’s there for standard ops. You can argue all you want about what you don’t know and don’t fly. I offered comments about what I do know and fly.
Click to expand...

It seems that you do not understand that the Limitations section are legal limits. Yes, the placards are in there (which are legally required IN the plane to fly it), but there are other things in that section.

Violating the limits could get you violated or even more importantly, void your insurance.
 
Sure thing. I’ll take y’alls advice under advisement. Hopefully you get some advanced training on how to fly airplanes instead of how to run scared for your interpretation of limitations. Full flap limitation is 90mph. Neither takeoffs or stalls exceed that. Good thing my Cub is experimental, or you guys might go mental!
 
Doc Holliday said:
But so is flight control operation. The TCDS Control Surface Movements, Take Off 0 & 20, Landing 30 & 40.

I don’t have a POH handy, but how does it address flap settings on takeoff?
Click to expand...

If you go around with 40 degrees of flaps, you are now in a takeoff mode, but obviously need to get the flaps up and can certainly stall the airplane in the process.
 
feels like reddit's r/flying is leaking with all this regulatory pizzing that nobody requested.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top