Post Checkride Sticker Shock - your mileage may vary

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VictorValencia

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VictorValencia
Passed my SP checkride on Friday flying out of Palo Alto (KPAO) CA.
It was somewhat anti-climactic but it feels great to complete this
achievement. I flew in a C-162. I will post a detailed checkride
report soon.

It was fun to see how many hours of training it took for me to get
to this point. I have a commercial glider certificate but have not
flown since the late 80's. I think the glider experience helped some
but not by a huge amount.

What is interesting.......I mean shocking.... is the total cost for the training.

First, there's some caveats:

1) I am flying a relatively new aircraft. (has 500 hrs)
2) I am training in the SF Bay area which has fairly complex airspace.
3) Fuel costs are probably higher here.
4) I may have taken longer than average in total hours
5) I flew 1-2 times per week over a 1 year period

So, onto the numbers....

Hours
------
Total flight hours: 82
Dual hours: 61
Solo hours: 21
Ground Instruction: 33.5

Rates
------
Aircraft rental: $98/hr dry + fuel, insurance = $150/hr
Dual instruction: $84/hr
Ground instruction: $114/hr
Fuel: $5.50/gal
C162 gph: 6 gal/hr

Cost Breakdown
-------------------
Aircraft Rental: $12,300
Dual Instruction: $5,124
Ground Instruction: $3,819
Cessna Ground Course: $349

Bose A20 headset: $1,000 (granted, a splurge)
Checkride: $900 (dpe only. $550 initial and $350 after
discontinuance due to weather)
Written Exam: $80? (can't remember the exact amount)
Misc Books etc: $250

Total Cost: $23,742

When I saw this number I almost experienced CFIT right there in
my office.

I thought that flying a sport aircraft plus my previous experience it would
only amount to $10,000+. Granted I did not actually review the charges
each week/month and reconcile with my logbook to get a fully understanding
of the ongoing costs. Had I realized it I may have not changed anything
except reducing the ground instruction and stopping as soon as my instructor
said I was ready.

The FARs for SP only require 20 total hours of flight time. What a joke :)
The SP training is identical to the PP minus night flying. PPL I believe
is a minimum of 40 hours and longer cross country flights.

In retrospect I don't think there are any shenanigans going on but
it highlights the importance of understanding exactly what you are
being charged and shopping around if possible.

Fortunately my wife is incredibly understanding and supportive of my
dream and I'm probably giving myself a much harder time than I should
for running up such a high bill.

New Students.......keep an eye on that bill. It won't change much but
at least you'll know what's coming :)

Thanks for letting me vent.

Victor
 
Wow!
3x what I paid.

Congrats! And congrats on being able to afford that.
 
$23K for a Sport Pilot License:yikes: At least you passed! Congrats on the successful checkride.
 
You had to pay the DPE 2x for a discontinuance due to weather? Sounds like the DPE encouraging people to fly in less than safe conditions due to the extra money...

Also $84 / flight instruction and over $100 / hr for ground??? I pay less for ground than air and the most I have ever paid for a CFII is $59/hr...here in NOLA I think it is like $45
 
60 hrs dual is what upped the cost.
That and $84 for an instructor. Most are about $50?

A year or so ago the national average for PP was 65 hours total.
I guess the question should be, why 60 hrs for SP, I would expect closer to 30-35.
 
BillTIZ said:
60 hrs dual is what upped the cost.
That and $84 for an instructor. Most are about $50?

A year or so ago the national average for PP was 65 hours total.
I guess the question should be, why 60 hrs for SP, I would expect closer to 30-35.
Click to expand...

It's a similar practical standard, only difference is less required time...but that clearly doesn't matter considering 40hrs for PP or less with 141 and the average as you said is 65...
 
mrkbbd said:
You had to pay the DPE 2x for a discontinuance due to weather? Sounds like the DPE encouraging people to fly in less than safe conditions due to the extra money...



Also $84 / flight instruction and over $100 / hr for ground??? I pay less for ground than air and the most I have ever paid for a CFII is $59/hr...here in NOLA I think it is like $45
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing.

I have never had a DPE charge an additional fee for a discontinuance due to Wx or even maintenance related.
 
VictorValencia said:
Passed my SP checkride on Friday flying out of Palo Alto (KPAO) CA.
It was somewhat anti-climactic but it feels great to complete this
achievement. I flew in a C-162. I will post a detailed checkride
report soon.

It was fun to see how many hours of training it took for me to get
to this point. I have a commercial glider certificate but have not
flown since the late 80's. I think the glider experience helped some
but not by a huge amount.

What is interesting.......I mean shocking.... is the total cost for the training.

First, there's some caveats:

1) I am flying a relatively new aircraft. (has 500 hrs)
2) I am training in the SF Bay area which has fairly complex airspace.
3) Fuel costs are probably higher here.
4) I may have taken longer than average in total hours
5) I flew 1-2 times per week over a 1 year period

So, onto the numbers....

Hours
------
Total flight hours: 82
Dual hours: 61
Solo hours: 21
Ground Instruction: 33.5

Rates
------
Aircraft rental: $98/hr dry + fuel, insurance = $150/hr
Dual instruction: $84/hr
Ground instruction: $114/hr
Fuel: $5.50/gal
C162 gph: 6 gal/hr

Cost Breakdown
-------------------
Aircraft Rental: $12,300
Dual Instruction: $5,124
Ground Instruction: $3,819
Cessna Ground Course: $349

Bose A20 headset: $1,000 (granted, a splurge)
Checkride: $900 (dpe only. $550 initial and $350 after
discontinuance due to weather)
Written Exam: $80? (can't remember the exact amount)
Misc Books etc: $250

Total Cost: $23,742

When I saw this number I almost experienced CFIT right there in
my office.

I thought that flying a sport aircraft plus my previous experience it would
only amount to $10,000+. Granted I did not actually review the charges
each week/month and reconcile with my logbook to get a fully understanding
of the ongoing costs. Had I realized it I may have not changed anything
except reducing the ground instruction and stopping as soon as my instructor
said I was ready.

The FARs for SP only require 20 total hours of flight time. What a joke :)
The SP training is identical to the PP minus night flying. PPL I believe
is a minimum of 40 hours and longer cross country flights.

In retrospect I don't think there are any shenanigans going on but
it highlights the importance of understanding exactly what you are
being charged and shopping around if possible.

Fortunately my wife is incredibly understanding and supportive of my
dream and I'm probably giving myself a much harder time than I should
for running up such a high bill.

New Students.......keep an eye on that bill. It won't change much but
at least you'll know what's coming :)

Thanks for letting me vent.

Victor
Click to expand...

The instruction rate is what is Shenanigans!:eek: That's Palo Alto for you.
 
Impressive numbers.

Of course, my nephew pays over $6500/month for a two bedroom house in SFO. Stuff costs more there.

It takes what it takes, of course, but I purposely flew twice a week to learn quickly, and passed my PP at around 42 hours. I think I benefitted from having a really good instructor (even if he was a young fella building hours to fly for the airlines, which he now does, flying for Delta), got me through Private and Instrument.

Now, go fly for some fun!
 
I do believe that I probably took more hours than average. I'm 51 years
old and I'm a software engineer working in aerospace so I was really
expecting less time.

I felt that both the oral and practical were fairly easy so maybe I
over-trained.

Looking at other local clubs, $70-$85 seems to be the going rate for an
instructor at KPAO. Probably due to living in the SF Bay area.

I had somewhat limited choices since I was going for SP (can't get a medical).

V.
 
Ouch! That's a lot of cash! Of course, the Bay Area tends to distort reality a bit when it comes to prices :)

That would be appalling out here in rural East Texas, but it doesn't seem too out of line for San Francisco, really. Every time I go there I wonder how folks can afford to live there full-time, even with higher wages. It's insane. Same thing in NYC.

The only part that raises my eyebrows is the ground instruction. I spent a whopping $100 or so for Gleim's online ground school. I can't imagine any universe where $114/hour is reasonable for ground instruction. Sheesh.

I've got my checkride scheduled for this week, and I've spent $5,200.70 for training so far. Yes, I'm that nerdy and have tracked it down to the penny, including the ginger I bought for motion sickness. After my DPE expense and the final bill from the flying club comes in, I should have my private pilot certificate for under $7,000 total. And that's with more hours than average, since I'm definitely not God's gift to aviation :)
 
I'm not sure what your schedule was like but it seems a couple of trips to Florida would have gotten you a SP license for 1/4 of what you spent at the most, including the flight. Something's rotten in Denmark...

Congratulations just the same. :)
 
Congrats pilot, now go buzz something, you earned it.
 
Congratulations. I hope you are willing and able to fly a lot to hone your skills and enjoy your privileges.
 
As a comparison, my last private pilot student in the Boston area clocked in at about $14K. Rates are $145/hr for a C-172S and $60/hr for instruction.

I think he took about 60 hours.
 
BillTIZ said:
60 hrs dual is what upped the cost.
That and $84 for an instructor. Most are about $50?

A year or so ago the national average for PP was 65 hours total.
I guess the question should be, why 60 hrs for SP, I would expect closer to 30-35.
Click to expand...

I've only seen two Bay Area instructors higher than that. One is a DPE whose **** doesn't stink, and the other really is a better ground instructor. The going rate is closer to $70. But ground instruction is higher? Most instructors do it for free (accompanied by self-study) or at least no more than regular rates.

Local flying sucks without the class B/C/D endorsement, and one eats a lot of Hobbs flying back and forth to Livermore Valley, so the hours don't seem outrageous. But the instructor? Does the ground instruction come with a "happy ending?"

And $60/hour for fuel? I just paid $5.40/gal today at Palo Alto. Who charges $10? Even Oakland is less than $8 and they are outrageous. Non-owned insurance is so cheap as to be negligible.

For comparison, my private pilot training in a 172 was in the middle teens.

Next time, it's cheaper at Reid if you can stand the traffic. And there area at least a couple of LSAs there.
 
Last edited:
The Bay area is crazy expensive for everything but even with that said I think thats an outrageous amount of money for a sport pilot ticket. Regardless congrats on the rating and enjoy it and fly safe.
 
at $114 per hour for GROUND instruction, I would go and say your CFI is not one of the, but THE most expensive instructor in the world.
And at 33 hours, you either really wanted to be overprepared, or he is also one of the least efficient instructors in the world...
 
Wow. In MN flight schools are typically $45-55 For the instructor when renting their aircraft, $55-65 in your own aircraft. Ground instruction is the same. My last few private students have averaged around 50 hours, but there are always outliers due to personal circumstances. DPEs for a private are usually $300-350, with an extra $100-150 on a retest depending on how much needs to be retested.

My kid got his license at 50 hours for ~$1,500...but he only had to buy gas and pay for the DPE.
 
Who cares.. You could be like me an look at how you spent too much on an airplane. I also spent more time on my training than the average joe, but that was because I wanted to feel more comfortable. You are a better pilot because of it! Congratulations and enjoy this flying stuff. It sure is fun and will take more of your money as you go. :)
 
VictorValencia said:
------
Total flight hours: 82
Dual hours: 61
Solo hours: 21
Ground Instruction: 33.5
Click to expand...

Not sure if it was your skill, you're schedule, or your CFI, but 80 hrs with 33 ground is quite high.

I never broke 60ish hrs with a student and very little ground time.



VictorValencia said:
Rates
------
Aircraft rental: $98/hr dry + fuel, insurance = $150/hr
Dual instruction: $84/hr
Ground instruction: $114/hr
Fuel: $5.50/gal
C162 gph: 6 gal/hr
Click to expand...

$150hr for a 162 fly catcher! Damn!

$84hr for a CFI, hope he was a ATP/Gold Seal and ex NASA shuttle pilot.

I charge $50 cash, multi thousand hour ATP, gold seal CFI, full time working single engine IFR turboprop pilot.


VictorValencia said:
Checkride: $900 (dpe only. $550 initial and $350 after
Click to expand...

That's kinda weak, most DPEs won't pull that extra charge crap if they know they won't be able to finish the ride due to wx


VictorValencia said:
The FARs for SP only require 20 total hours of flight time. What a joke :)
The SP training is identical to the PP minus night flying. PPL I believe
is a minimum of 40 hours and longer cross country flights.
Click to expand...


Yup, unless you're going SP for medical reasons it always makes more sense and is smarter to just get your PPL.

I've talked to SPs who wished they got their PPL, but NEVER heard a PPL who wished he got his SP.




I wish you would have posted about all this before, I'm sure some of the folks here could have helped you save a considerable amount of money.


Ether way, congrats on your license and blue skies!
 
Last edited:
Six to eight grand seems to be normal for the sp. Ground instruction seems like a high number of hours,also high cost. Congrats on passing the check ride.
 
James331 said:
Not sure if it was your skill, you're schedule, or your CFI, but 80 hrs with 33 ground is quite high.
Click to expand...

Part of that 80 hours is that he insisted on training on Saturdays. Palo Alto is worst then, year round. I won't stay in the pattern on Saturday, ever, as I detest spending $130/hour (172) to wait for 8 aircraft to take off and get extended to Los Angeles on every landing. Even going to Oakland on a game day is better. Actually a lot better. I don't understand 33 hours ground.
 
Last edited:
mrkbbd said:
It's a similar practical standard, only difference is less required time...but that clearly doesn't matter considering 40hrs for PP or less with 141 and the average as you said is 65...
Click to expand...

65 total time.
The OP did over 60 dual and 89 total. Way above the national average.
 
Your Written was likely $150 bucks...
 
For $84/hr I hope he was fixing your plane while teaching you.. Jeezus. In L.A. there are CFIs for $35/hr. and topping out at $65/hr. And EVERYTHING is ridiculously expensive here. $84 is ridiculous.
 
Congratulations!
I didn’t worry about how much I spent on getting my PPL or my commercial.
I could afford it, I did it and it was money well spent.
I have learned something from every hour of dual instruction.
One doesn’t have to spend a lot of time on this forum to see that many people were not successful at learning about aviation despite getting their rating.
It takes only a casual reading of the NTSB aviation accident reports to see that many who are flying are making the most basic errors.
I feel people who want to save money on training are misguided.
The more I learn the more I enjoy exercising what I have learned.
 
TexasAviation said:
Ouch! That's a lot of cash! Of course, the Bay Area tends to distort reality a bit when it comes to prices :)

That would be appalling out here in rural East Texas .... And that's with more hours than average, since I'm definitely not God's gift to aviation :)
Click to expand...

Yes, but you have to add a penalty of $500,000 for living in Texas, plus an additional $4500 for over-sized belt buckles and hats for your aircraft! :rofl:
 
To the OP- holy cow is that a lot of money. Spent half that much money myself and did not rush training either( 59 hours at time of checkride)

This is the exact reason why LSA is a total failure. It actually cost more to get the LSA Ticket than a private pilot ticket. I stumbled upon some LSA airplanes for sale the other day, a sky catcher and a remos-- both were over 150k. Why would anyone ever spend that much on a plane that is so limited in use( cant fly more than 2 people, can't fly in any weather what so ever)??
 
Wow! When i started reading this thread I thought that my cost would definitely be higher than the OP's and it was. The difference is that at the end of the project I owned an airplane.
 
jspilot said:
To the OP- holy cow is that a lot of money. Spent half that much money myself and did not rush training either( 59 hours at time of checkride)

This is the exact reason why LSA is a total failure. It actually cost more to get the LSA Ticket than a private pilot ticket. I stumbled upon some LSA airplanes for sale the other day, a sky catcher and a remos-- both were over 150k. Why would anyone ever spend that much on a plane that is so limited in use( cant fly more than 2 people, can't fly in any weather what so ever)??
Click to expand...

Not all LSA's are expen$ive. An IA that i know sold his Dads pristine, low time, original owner Taylor raft not long ago for $17K.
 
woodchucker said:
Yes, but you have to add a penalty of $500,000 for living in Texas, plus an additional $4500 for over-sized belt buckles and hats for your aircraft! :rofl:
Click to expand...

I'll pay the 500k:yes:
But to the OP, Congrats!!!
But I'm surprised you had to pay for anything in Commie-Fornia. Thought profit making was taboo.....especially inS.F.
Seriously though, DPE charging for discontinuance seems a little rough. Our local DPE includes the first retest if you fail as well as discontinuance if needed.
 
For that price your could have bought you own C150 and trained in that. Sell the C150 if you don't want it and your training cost is way way down.

My ppl back in 1998 was $4,500. Training was in C150 $55 Wet plus $30 instructor per hour. I'm so glad I got my ticket back than instead of having to pay todays prices. Yikes.
 
Last edited:
What you could have done:

Buy a well used Luscombe/Taylorcraft/Aeronca from Barnstormers: $17,000.
Take a grizzled CFI with you to pick it up, and fly home: $1,200. (use auto fuel)
Park it at TCY outside: $220/month, 3 months: $660.
Sporty's PPL ground inst DVD with written fee: $300
Hire same grizzled CFI to instruct to PP: $50/hour x 70 hours: $3500.
Gas/oil for plane: 70 hours x 5GPH x $5: $1750.
Cheap headset off Craigslist/Barnstormers/ebay: $100.
Handheld comm, used GPS: $800.
Charts, books, misc: $1500.
Rent C-150 for test: $200.
DPE fee: $595.

Total: $27605 and you have your own plane.
Sell used plane: -$15000
Total for PPL(not SP): $12605
 
BillTIZ said:
65 total time.
The OP did over 60 dual and 89 total. Way above the national average.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the OP included his Glider time in those numbers (which he is allowed to include in his TT)
 
The instructor rates are a bit insane. $114/ hr for ground instruction? I guess I am behind the times. I always add .2 to any flight to cover preflight post flight which usually takes longer than the .2 at a rate of $40/ hr. Ground lessons are the same rate. The 172 SP g1000 rate is 169/hr, and Long Island gas is around $7/ gal.
 
My cost here in Houston for PPL was just under $17K total. I was at 75 hours total when I went for the checkride, with maybe 60 of that being dual. The plane I used for majority of my training was a 172SP which rented for 152/hr wet and my instructor's rate was 50/hr. As I mentioned in my checkride writeup, some of that owes to the formality of the school with extra progress checks along the way, which gave me an opportunity to fly with a different instructor and learn some more. Although it hit the wallet, I saw value in the additional instruction. The other factor for the extra time was due to sequencing in a fairly busy Class D [towered] airport that I flew out of - meant a lot of extended downwinds or right 360s for sequencing, and frequent long hold short for take off scenarios.
 
HouTxPilot82 said:
The other factor for the extra time was due to sequencing in a fairly busy Class D [towered] airport that I flew out of - meant a lot of extended downwinds or right 360s for sequencing, and frequent long hold short for take off scenarios.
Click to expand...

Busy airport will cost some extra $$$. My CFI and I estimated I spent about 10 hours of total time just dealing with airport delays. For some folks mitigation may be possible by figuring out the busy times and avoiding those. If you're stuck with weekend training then chances are you're going to just have to suck it up. Spending 20 minutes in the run-up area just waiting your turn really, really sucks...
 
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