Let me guess, you are one of those who complain about the "war" on Christianity. Are we in Spin Zone yet?
Pope Francis
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Let me guess, you are one of those who complain about the "war" on Christianity. Are we in Spin Zone yet?
Piloto
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If the US government impose a church tax you will end up with an atheist state. I think the passing of the basket is the way to go. No paper trace. Can you imagine Obama passing the basket in Congress to pay for the deficit.
José
Jay Honeck
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Hellllooooo, Spin Zone. 
Joe_KansasCity
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So you guys think a church should manage their assets like the federal government, which is to stay very poorly with no business acumen. Which of course, would mean they'd go bankrupt and cease to exist. Have you ever attempted to run a business to "break-even"? I doubt it, because if you did you'd go broke.
Or, should they manage those assets in a way that generates the financial resources necessary to perform charitable acts and public services needed by poor and disenfranchised people around the globe?
Unbelievable..... I get the fact that some have a problem with {insert church name here}, but criticizing them for being successful is ridiculous.... When did success become so terrible? As best I can tell, none of them force anyone to buy their products or services.
Or, should they manage those assets in a way that generates the financial resources necessary to perform charitable acts and public services needed by poor and disenfranchised people around the globe?
Unbelievable..... I get the fact that some have a problem with {insert church name here}, but criticizing them for being successful is ridiculous.... When did success become so terrible? As best I can tell, none of them force anyone to buy their products or services.
That is because you are a cash-paying customer. For the other 98% who either have insurance, medicare, medicaid or dont pay at all, that charge number is irrelevant (we call it 'funny money'). The reason you get shafted on this as an evil financially responsible citizen is spinzone material.
Just spent the last two hours in a committee meeting that dealt with hospital and medical system finances. Things are not pretty out there, and it's not going to get better.
I dont know over what time period and how that number was generated. A casual look at the hospitals website suggests that they have a large outpatient and primary care operation, looking at systemwide advertising cost in such a mixed operation and allocating it to 'hospital beds' can lead to faulty conclusions. You mention that this 'data' comes out of St Louis, whoever feeds that data has an agenda, it may be worthwhile to look deeper into what that agenda is.
You indicate that there may be a conflict of interest and self-dealing on the hospital board. I dont doubt that, but this is a problem all non-profits have to deal with and not limited to catholic organizations. The secretary of state offices who oversee nonprofits dont do a great job in cracking down on those types of abuses.
Church taxes in some of the european countries have a historic origin and if you are an atheist or humanist there are ways to opt out. The US has a very different constitutional foundation and I dont see much of a chance of the US goverment getting directly into the church funding business (indirectly the US goverment funds churches at a comparable rate to most european goverments through the charitable contribution deduction).
Dont know, in our church there is quite a papertrail for every check I drop into the basket, they are nice enough to send me a receipt at the end of the year.
timwinters
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No, I'm not cash paying, I just pay for my own insurance...I used the wrong term.
The time period was over 5 years IIRC. They spent over $11 mil / yr.
(in a town of less than 50,000)
The time period was over 5 years IIRC. They spent over $11 mil / yr.
(in a town of less than 50,000)
Then is the difference you posted one of 'charges' or one of actual insurance reimbursement (after contractual adjustments) for one hospital system vs. the other ?
So you guys think a church should manage their assets like the federal government, which is to stay very poorly with no business acumen. Which of course, would mean they'd go bankrupt and cease to exist. Have you ever attempted to run a business to "break-even"? I doubt it, because if you did you'd go broke.
Or, should they manage those assets in a way that generates the financial resources necessary to perform charitable acts and public services needed by poor and disenfranchised people around the globe?
Unbelievable..... I get the fact that some have a problem with {insert church name here}, but criticizing them for being successful is ridiculous.... When did success become so terrible? As best I can tell, none of them force anyone to buy their products or services.
I think you might have misunderstood my feelings.... Churches operate in the non profit status.... All the rest of the tax payers have to cough up more taxes to cover the revenue they aquire and not pay taxes on... scam......
I have absolutely NO problem with a religious organization using the flocks money to build and maintain a place of worship... It is when they create huge shrines to themselves that are only available for the flock to use...
For instance.... Alot of churches have services on Sunday in the house of worship, and in other buildings they offer to their congregation day care all week long for the kids, and pot luck supper on Monday, Bingo night on Tues, Basket weaving on Weds, Garden classes on Thurs, Singles night on Fri, and a host of activities for the flock on Sat..... In my mind, that ain't a church for people to gather and pray together, it is a taxpayer funded social club available for members to use if they put some cash in the collection basket every Sunday ....
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timwinters
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No, i'm not that stupid. I (my insurance) paid $10,500 at St. Francis...that's when I learned my lesson...before the media even picked up on it. Didn't suspect that there wasn't some sort of "reasonable and customary" standard payment. So I called down to Cox, my old hospital in Springfield and asked "wtf? Have costs gone up this much?". And they quoted me what Anthem would allow them.
And, no, it's not an out of network issue either...they're both in network.
Fwiw, they state a service area of 650k people.
I found the hack-piece in St Louis Today that your numbers are coming from. According to that article, the net revenue for the hospital system was $423mil in the same time they spent $11.5 mil on advertising and promotion. Big number, small number ? Don't know.
Whatever they are doing, it seems to be working for them and the community. From a distance it looks like they offer many high-end services including robotic surgery, up to date radiation oncology, heart surgery etc. Looking at this from the inside perspective of our health system, you have to make money to provide those services to the community, and sometimes it takes some marketing to keep up the revenue side of things.
Again, you would you prefer to have one struggling community hospital, a VA and an IHS facility ? That is what you are going to end up with if you get too fixated on making sure that nobody makes money in medicine.
Joe_KansasCity
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So does your ire extend to the Freemasons, Fraternal order of Eagles, Elks Lodge, the local Country Club, or any other non-religious, non-profit?
Then Anthem is doing a sucky job at negotiating rates. Wouldn't be the first time (thank god
).
Florida Cracker
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Like I said, a lot of the noise about the "evil" Catholics, is coming from former, fallen away, Catholics.
Tony_Scarpelli
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I wonder if you could possibly say anything more stupid? Thats like me saying you are gay because you live in WA.
RJM62
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Hypocrisy? You mean he has no patience for one of the fundamental underpinnings of organized religion? And how many pedophile priests do you expect he'll immediately boot out the door?
I often wonder why most (but not all) atheists that I know are so angry and unhappy that the mere mention of a religious person opens the floodgates of vitriol.
Here we have a man whose entire life has been given to service, and whose humility, love for the human race, and personal sacrifice are acknowledged even by our Left-wing media; and you can't let that slide without spewing hateful venom. Why? Because all the good this man did and all the sacrifices he made were born of his belief in and love for God -- something which, in your mind, outweighs all else.
So let me ask you something. Let's assume that an atheist had done the same good deeds and had led the same life of poverty as Pope Francis has, and that person and his deeds were brought to this forum's attention. Now let's suppose that a religious person came to the forum and trivialized that atheist's deeds, dismissed his life's work, and labeled all of his reasons for living the life he had as phoniness and nonsense.
What would your opinion of that religious person be? Would he strike you as someone reasonable, objective, and stable? Would he impress you as basically happy with his life and his faith? And speaking of which, what would you think about his faith? Would you get the impression that his religion was making his life better, if it manifested itself in a compulsion to trivialize the deeds and assassinate the character of a man who had, by all accounts, dedicated his entire life to serving humanity?
I'm just wondering.
-Rich
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I think you might have misunderstood my feelings.... Churches operate in the non profit status.... All the rest of the tax payers have to cough up more taxes to cover the revenue they acquire and not pay taxes on... scam......
I have absolutely NO problem with a religious organization using the flocks money to build and maintain a place of worship... It is when they create huge shrines to themselves that are only available for the flock to use...
For instance.... Alot of churches have services on Sunday in the house of worship, and in other buildings they offer to their congregation day care all week long for the kids, an pot luck supper on Monday, Bingo night on Tues, Basket weaving on Weds, Garden classes on Thurs, Singles night on Fri, and a host of activities for the flock on Sat..... In my mind, that ain't a church for people to gather and pray together, it is a taxpayer funded social club available for members to use if they put some cash in the collection basket every Sunday ....
One major difference is that the government taxes, (which is to say - steals) prints and taxes some more whenever the blood suckers want more money. That in and of itself, assures that the federal government will never run properly, as there is ZERO incentive to do anything right.
When churches run poorly, they eventually close and their property often becomes a strip center.
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timwinters
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No, I prefer to receive far superior health care at a fraction of the cost in Springfield. Their hospitals are nationally ranked. The ones here may look good on paper but not so much in person.
I've been through 4 doctors since moving over here. My wife five. And she's a health care professional.
Florida Cracker
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So.
Your reason for such vitriol is you think the Catholic church should exist to serve YOU better.
Got it.
timwinters
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Umm...no...it's because a "not for profit" is funneling off nearly $12 million per year to it's board members and sticking it to the customer in order to do so.
So, I choose to exercise my free market rights and go elsewhere.
The use of your word ire is interesting.............
RJM62
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I think you might have misunderstood my feelings.... Churches operate in the non profit status.... All the rest of the tax payers have to cough up more taxes to cover the revenue they aquire and not pay taxes on... scam......
I have absolutely NO problem with a religious organization using the flocks money to build and maintain a place of worship... It is when they create huge shrines to themselves that are only available for the flock to use...
For instance.... Alot of churches have services on Sunday in the house of worship, and in other buildings they offer to their congregation day care all week long for the kids, and pot luck supper on Monday, Bingo night on Tues, Basket weaving on Weds, Garden classes on Thurs, Singles night on Fri, and a host of activities for the flock on Sat..... In my mind, that ain't a church for people to gather and pray together, it is a taxpayer funded social club available for members to use if they put some cash in the collection basket every Sunday ....
Well... Personally, I've yet to come across a church that turned anyone away. But I suppose they're out there.
More to the point, the reason churches are tax exempt has nothing to do with charitable works. It has to do with the degree of intrusion into church finances that would be required to tax them being violative of the First Amendment rights of the church and its members.
Just one example: How would cash dropped in the collection basket be accounted for? Would every member be required to use a coded envelope? What about those who felt God was instructing them to give anonymously? And does the government have the right to monitor believers' gifts to their churches in any case?
The simplest solution, according to much case law, is to not tax religious organizations.
-Rich
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RJM62
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Joe_KansasCity
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....Why? I interpreted you feelings toward the Catholic Church as anger/distain. If I've missed the mark please accept my apologies.
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timwinters
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WTF does that have to do with anything I've stated here?
Bury your head in the sand if you like.
You speak intelligently and honestly. But to me, "objective" and "religious" are oxymorons. To me, atheist "moral actions" are not self-serving. "Morals" in the name of religion strike me as fear of how you will be regarded on "judgment day". The eternal flame broiler is the best means of fear mongering ever devised for social control.
RJM62
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Well, you seem to be judging the religion based on that one hospital (and possibly vice-versa), so I'm looking for the nexus.
-Rich
Relative to their operating revenue, this is 2.7%, the competitor in town spends 0.9% and the much larger Barnes Jewish system spends 0.4%.
Do you really think a 1.8-2.3% difference in advertising budget is responsible for your healthcare cost ??
('barking up the wrong tree' is the technical term)
The easiest way to fix this mess is for the congress to change the laws and remove religious organizations from the tax exempt status... We will find out REAL quick who is a god fearing christian and who was looking for a healthy deduction....... Personally I would bet 1/2 the churches would fold up within 2 years... Funny also when people add their insight into a religious issue, we get labeled as Athiests..
timwinters
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Are you counting the $10 million / yr they pay their advertising consultant to manage their advertising?
It may not be wholly responsible for driving the costs but the ethics are certainly questionable at best.
A church does not have to be a non-profit or charitable organization in order to be tax-exempt.
While looking up some aircraft registrations for Prince Georges county maryland, I noticed that all the nice hardware (Gulfstreams etc.) is either owned by CIA cover companies or the local megachurches .
While looking up some aircraft registrations for Prince Georges county maryland, I noticed that all the nice hardware (Gulfstreams etc.) is either owned by CIA cover companies or the local megachurches
.
What is driving healthcare cost is that people are old and sick.
You mention the ethics issue in that hospital board, this is again not an issue of a particular faith but rather a problem inherent in the non-profit sector in general.
RJM62
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The easiest way to fix this mess is for the congress to change the laws and remove religious organizations from the tax exempt status... We will find out REAL quick who is a god fearing christian and who was looking for a healthy deduction....... Personally I would bet 1/2 the churches would fold up within 2 years... Funny also when people add their insight into an religious issue we get labeled as Athiests..
I never labeled you an Atheist, Ben.
I was responding to this specific quote:
which seemed to indicate that the poster in question is an Atheist, a suspicion furthered by this one:
As for taxing churches, again, how do you interpose government between believers and their churches without violating the Free Exercise clause? And as for wanting a tax write-off, a good percentage of contributions to churches are made in loose cash, which said contributions aren't deductible, anyway.
-Rich
timwinters
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You certainly won't get an argument out of me on that one!
Joe_KansasCity
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Good grief... This thread was started to honor a man that has selflessly served humanity for a lifetime, and has provided stellar leadership to one of the oldest and most successful organizations ever known to man. He's been honored and raised to the highest possible position this side of heaven... and we end up discussing everyone's personal grievance with the church in general. (billing rates, bad nuns, perverted priests, land holdings, financial successes, bingo night proceeds, angry agnostics...really!) I'm done. He deserves more respect than this.
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Actually, agnostic, if you understand and appreciate the difference...and ******n proud of it.
But you feel free to pray for my soul of you object to my blasphemy.You never heard of this dude until now. Respect is earned.
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RJM62
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Actually, agnostic, if you understand and appreciate the difference...and ******n proud of it.
Oh, I will. Your comments, however, strike me as leaning more toward Atheism. Of course, I wouldn't presume to know that. I'm just saying that your comments seemed rather strong for an agnostic, who by definition wouldn't be convinced enough one way or another to have such strong opinions on the matter.
But that's just me.
I'll light a candle for you, anyway.
-Rich
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RJM62
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