Pope Francis

[RJM62]

I'm anxious to read more about him. Two interesting points so far:

1. He is not part of the Curia (the Vatican inner circle). I think that may be a good thing, especially given that many believe that the Curia needs reform.

2. He's a Jesuit.

When I was growing up, my dad gave me school choice: Notre Dame High School (Priests and brother of the Congregation of the Holy Cross) or Loyola Academy (The Jesuits). At that time, the Jesuits were known as the sandal clad, pony tail wearing liberal order of priests. Today, the same, with a few less pony tails.

Fast forward a lot of years, and I had to tell a friend, Father Bill, a Holy Cross priest, that my daughter was not going to the University of Notre Dame (run by the Congregation of the Holy Cross), but was attending the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, MA, which is run by the Jesuits. (Stick with me here - confusing, I know.)

Bill, who is a pretty funny guy, said "That's OK. Just don't let her convert." OK, I guess you had to be there.

But back to Pope Francis. I understand that he has been known to challenge some the more liberal wing of the Jesuit order. I'm anxious to learn more about that.

He's no friend to liberal theology, that's for sure. But he has no tolerance for a church that doesn't serve the needs of people, either.

For example, he has publicly compared the church to the Pharisees Jesus scolded in the New Testament for putting doctrinal squabbles over social justice; he has accused church leaders of hypocrisy for "forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes;" and he strongly denounced many of the priests of Buenos Aires as hypocrites for refusing to baptize the children of unwed mothers.

His remarks in the later instance were particularly blunt:

"In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don't baptize the children of single mothers because they weren't conceived in the sanctity of marriage... These are today's hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it's baptized!"

I suspect that many secular journalists will be scratching their heads trying to figure out how someone so theologically conservative can also be so thoroughly invested in social justice. The two probably seem mutually exclusive to many reporters. That's another reason I think Bergoglio was a good choice. He puts a kinder face on the church's teachings by articulating the teachings of its Founder in his own life.

-Rich

 

[LDJones]

All 1.2 billion Catholics are SICK because of some bad apples and poor leadership decisions in the child molestation issue? Wow talk about painting with a broad brush....

I guess we are now justified in considering all Muslims terrorists. I suspect there are more in their ranks supporting those activities than there are Catholics supporting child molestation.

 

[Piloto]

Have you visited the Vatican? The Catholic Church owns so many priceless works of art, it truly is astounding. Priceless, as in worth so much you cannot put a price on it. The Vatican archives are legendary for whatever secrets they hold. They own so much artwork and property, and in previous centuries tithing was customary. They have had two thousand years to collect assets.

I have been twice a the Vatican and has always been impressed by its magnificence. A truly work of art in the grand scale. And like Jeff said I am more impressed on how it is supported by just church donations. Can you imagine if our government switches from taxation to donations. Hand me the basket and will put all my pocket change.

José

 

[JHW]

I have been twice a the Vatican and has always been impressed by its magnificence. A truly work of art in the grand scale. And like Jeff said I am more impressed on how it is supported by just church donations. Can you imagine if our government switches from taxation to donations. Hand me the basket and will put all my pocket change.

José

To be fair, that magnificent building cost the church a lot to build. It effectively cost them most of western europe.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

I have been twice a the Vatican and has always been impressed by its magnificence. A truly work of art in the grand scale. And like Jeff said I am more impressed on how it is supported by just church donations. Can you imagine if our government switches from taxation to donations. Hand me the basket and will put all my pocket change.

José

Actually, as it's been said before. The Catholic Church has a lot of business investment, including a gay bath house, which I just find ironically funny. I think they also own a porn studio.

I wonder if they have to run the money through the holy water before the Cardinals are allow to touch it.

 

[Piloto]

there are "taxes" in a manner of speaking

parishers give a share of income to the parish
parishes give a share to the dioces
dioces' give something to the vatican

But what those amounts are, and what they do, I have no idea. It's not a straightforward thing to sort out. For example, our parish and my kids' school get their liability and employee health insurance through the dioces. But breaking out the parishes' payments to the dioces in terms of tangible benefits like insurance vs support for the bureaucracy vs charitable works is not something I have visibility to when I put my check in the basket each sunday.

I noticed that here in the US the basket is passed a long by the parishioners themselves. But in most Catholic Hispanic countries the basket is carried on a long pole by a church servant. Which if you do not donate they will shake the basket in front of you for others to see. And then there are those that put in a couple of pesos or pesetas and try to get change back from the basket. I would not mind if instead of the 1040 form I get the basket.

José

 

[JHW]

Actually, as it's been said before. The Catholic Church has a lot of business investment, including a gay bath house, which I just find ironically funny. I think they also own a porn studio.

I wonder if they have to run the money through the holy water before the Cardinals are allow to touch it.

Nice try. There is a office space leased by the vatican in the city of Rome that is upstairs in a building that has a gay sauna on the first floor. It's an amusing anecdote but not related to the Church in any way.

 

[JHW]

I noticed that here in the US the basket is passed a long by the parishioners themselves. But in most Catholic Hispanic countries the basket is carried on a long pole by a church servant. Which if you do not donate they will shake the basket in front of you for others to see. And then there are those that put in a couple of pesos or pesetas and try to get change back from the basket. I would not mind if instead of the 1040 form I get the basket.

José

if 10% (actually 5+5%) is good enough for Jesus, it should be enough for obama

 

[DavidWhite]

I'm waiting for my phone call to say that I got elected.

Pope Commodore Wolverine Lightningbolt I

 

[weilke]

Just curious but how does the Vatican collect or make money to pay for their expenses. After all there is no religion tax. And I don't think the souvenir stores at the Vatican make enough to pay for all this. I never heard of a Vatican deficit. Maybe Obama should look into it to solve our deficit.

It receives contributions from the national churches. Some of these funds are raised via taxes. In germany and switzerland for example, anyone registered as a church member will pay a church-tax that is calculated off his federal or state income tax bill. In the 1800s, the goverment expropriated the respective national churches and took away their income producing assets like farmland and forests (they used to work like land-grant universities in the US). In exchange the goverment committed to collecting those taxes on behalf of the church.

 

[N801BH]

Not everyone has what it takes to play in the major leagues....

If you call molesting little kids "major leagues" .. I am SO glad I bailed when I did.....

If true catholics wanted the disgusting actions of perverted priests to end, they all could have just called the police and reported them... Instead, they and the church kept it all under wraps and just shifted the molesters to another parrish so they could continue their evil deeds... In my mind that makes ANYONE who perpetuated that crime just as guilty as the actual perverted priest................ Stay tuned and you will see just how much of a quitter I am....:wink2: ...

Of course the next thing you will say is the entire sexual exploitation of kids is all made up and was conceived to degrade the Catholic religion..

 

[N801BH]

It receives contributions from the national churches. Some of these funds are raised via taxes. In germany and switzerland for example, anyone registered as a church member will pay a church-tax that is calculated off his federal or state income tax bill. In the 1800s, the goverment expropriated the respective national churches and took away their income producing assets like farmland and forests (they used to work like land-grant universities in the US). In exchange the goverment committed to collecting those taxes on behalf of the church.

I have seen several studies done over the years that clearly showed the Catholic religion was the biggest business in the WORLD..... Based on weekly income from their entire empire......... They take in more cash each week then the next largest corporation by a factor of 3 times....

 

[JeffDG]

Wait, didn't some of these molestation cases happen in the United States? By your logic, that means you are responsible for it as an American. Shame on you!

 

[JHW]

I have seen several studies done over the years that clearly showed the Catholic religion was the biggest business in the WORLD..... Based on weekly income from their entire empire......... They take in more cash each week then the next largest corporation by a factor of 3 times....

yes, most nations are bigger than most companies

 

[nddons]

It receives contributions from the national churches. Some of these funds are raised via taxes. In germany and switzerland for example, anyone registered as a church member will pay a church-tax that is calculated off his federal or state income tax bill. In the 1800s, the goverment expropriated the respective national churches and took away their income producing assets like farmland and forests (they used to work like land-grant universities in the US). In exchange the goverment committed to collecting those taxes on behalf of the church.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Geez, don't tell Obama about that idea.

 

[olasek]

I have seen several studies done over the years

None very reputable I suspect.
You have to decide what you want to measure, the budget of the Vatican City/Holy See or the total amount of $$ that flows through all the Catholic churches around the world. The latter is probably large (but probably less than what flows through coffers of Protestant churches) but practically none of that goes to Vatican, it stays local. You can look up Vatican City annual budget - it is around $500 mln. Vatican City/Holy See holdings (investments, etc excluding art, real estate) are worth about $15 bln.

 

[Florida Cracker]

Roughly 1/3 of the hospital beds are provided by one of the Catholic Hospital orgs. The Sisters of Charity took such exceptional care of people, the public hospital was never nearly as full.
Their homes for single mothers outnumber all the homes for such, ever built or funded by the US government, that pretends to be so concerned with social welfare.
Catholic schools educated children far more effectively and at a fraction of the cost of the pathetic public school system, because education was the goal, not finding ways to demand and get more money to give to ****ing union members.
Our neighbor had a stroke a couple of weeks ago. They go to a Catholic church. Their priest was there almost faster than the ambulance and church staff organized meals and rides to and from the stroke unit, for his wife before all the tests were done.
The Catholic church is very effective at causing women to resist the urge to have an abortion, which seems to be the real reason libs choose to hate them.

 

[weilke]

I have seen several studies done over the years that clearly showed the Catholic religion was the biggest business in the WORLD..... Based on weekly income from their entire empire......... They take in more cash each week then the next largest corporation by a factor of 3 times....

That is probably correct if you count entities such as catholic hospitals. universities, schools and charities as 'businesses'. If you find me a soup kitchen that is profitable, get back to me.

 

[Joe_KansasCity]

If you call molesting little kids "major leagues" .. I am SO glad I bailed when I did.....

If true catholics wanted the disgusting actions of perverted priests to end, they all could have just called the police and reported them... Instead, they and the church kept it all under wraps and just shifted the molesters to another parrish so they could continue their evil deeds... In my mind that makes ANYONE who perpetuated that crime just as guilty as the actual perverted priest................ Stay tuned and you will see just how much of a quitter I am....:wink2: ...

Of course the next thing you will say is the entire sexual exploitation of kids is all made up and was conceived to degrade the Catholic religion..

No Ben, it's very clear there were perverts that molested kids and and pathetic leaders that helped cover it up. All involved should have been prosecuted, just like the perverts in every other demographic (including those who are citizens of Jackson Hole).

For you to indict the entire population of Catholic parishioners globally is foolish and childish.

Do you consider all athletic fans, students, alumni, staff, facility and administration of Penn State "SICK" because of Sandusky and the leadership of that University?

 

[N801BH]

None very reputable I suspect.
.

Wanna bet......

Religion is a HUGE business....

Ps....For bonus points..... Who is the largest private land owner in the state of Florida?????..

 

[RJM62]

I have seen several studies done over the years that clearly showed the Catholic religion was the biggest business in the WORLD..... Based on weekly income from their entire empire......... They take in more cash each week then the next largest corporation by a factor of 3 times....

How many day care centers, schools, colleges, universities, orphanages, hospitals, clinics, rehabilitation facilities, homeless shelters, charitable agencies, and food pantries does the next-largest corporation operate?

I'm just wondering, mind you...

-Rich

 

[Florida Cracker]

Our neighbors were Nazarens for a long time, got their undies in a wad about something - or other and quit. Big deal, right?
These days they manage to change almost every conversation into a harangue against the hypocrites in the Nazarene movement, the "outrageous" cost of sending your kids to a Nazarene University, the "obscene" cost of supporting the Nazarene World HQ, or whatever they call it, in KC. The lyrics change but the tune never changes.

I suspect the majority of people going scorched earth on the Catholics, today, are fallen away Catholics. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

Wanna bet......

Religion is a HUGE business....

Ps....For bonus points..... Who is the largest private land owner in the state of Florida?????..

I choose Scientology for $200 Alex.

 

[RJM62]

Our neighbors were Nazarens for a long time, got their undies in a wad about something - or other and quit. Big deal, right?
These days they manage to change almost every conversation into a harangue against the hypocrites in the Nazarene movement, the "outrageous" cost of sending your kids to a Nazarene University, the "obscene" cost of supporting the Nazarene World HQ, or whatever they call it, in KC. The lyrics change but the tune never changes.

I suspect the majority of people going scorched earth on the Catholics, today, are fallen away Catholics. Nothing more, nothing less.

Wow... disillusioned Nazarenes are kind of rare.

-Rich

 

[Joe_KansasCity]

I choose Scientology for $200 Alex.

bzzzt

What is the Seminole Tribe, Alex?

 

[N801BH]

No Ben, it's very clear there were perverts that molested kids and and pathetic leaders that helped cover it up. All involved should have been prosecuted, just like the perverts in every other demographic (including those who are citizens of Jackson Hole).

For you to indict the entire population of Catholic parishioners globally is foolish and childish.

Do you consider all athletic fans, students, alumni, staff, facility and administration of Penn State "SICK" because of Sandusky and the leadership of that University?

This is where I have a big problem........

Read my initial post very closely..................


+1.........................

I was raised a catholic but thankfully both my parents realized the church was just a big business more concerned about getting their 10% EVERY Sunday instead of the well being of our souls....... The child molestation issues should have sunk the religion,,, instead it gave them publicity... They are SICK people....
..

I Never once mentioned the parishioners... Only the chuch itself, which I envision to be the functioning body and organization of the religion.. Several of you jumped on with the claim all 1.3 BILLION catholics are perverts and are sick...... When you lump the entire congragation into the mix then I conclude your " creative" spinning of my comment is suspect and not valid.... IMHO...

 

[N801BH]

I choose Scientology for $200 Alex.

Close........... But no cigar.....

The next largest private landowner in the state of Florida is Coca Cola with the massive acreage of citrus groves owned by Minute Maid...


The largest land owner is the Mormon Church..... The Deseret Ranch extends from just south of Orlando and extends all the way down to almost West Palm Beach........

Now why a religion needs that much real estate to spread their religious message is beyond me..

 

[weilke]

The largest land owner is the Mormon Church..... The Deseret Ranch extends from just south of Orlando and extends all the way down to almost West Palm Beach........

How is this related to the pope and the catholic church again ?

Now why a religion needs that much real estate to spread their religious message is beyond me..

Creates income that can be used to support the mission of the church.

Is that definition of 'largest landowner' based on acreage or value ? Lots of unbuildable swamp and forestland in FL.

 

[Florida Cracker]

Close........... But no cigar.....

The next largest private landowner in the state of Florida is Coca Cola with the massive acreage of citrus groves owned by Minute Maid...


The largest land owner is the Mormon Church..... The Deseret Ranch extends from just south of Orlando and extends all the way down to almost West Palm Beach........

Now why a religion needs that much real estate to spread their religious message is beyond me..

Coca Cola's largest, or one of their largest stockholders is the Mormon Church, iirc. So your thought may be #1 on both lists.

 

[N801BH]

Coca Cola's largest, or one of their largest stockholders is the Mormon Church, iirc. So your thought may be #1 on both lists.

Actually Pepsi Cola is a large part of the Mormon Church, not Coca Cola...

The ironic thing is the Mormons preach that caffeine in bad for all their members, yet they have huge holding on one of the biggest providers of caffeine on the planet.........

Ya gotta love religion and all the double standards..

 

[timwinters]

Our local "catholic" hospital is one of those great benevolent institutions.

They spend $140 per bed per day in advertising.

They spend more in advertising than they spend on pharmaceuticals.

On the hospital board sits:

A key individual of the local newspaper (just recently deceased)

The owner of the local billboard company

The owner of a local "dollar saver" type publication

Take a guess who the hospital spends all their advertising money with...

The average stay and/or procedure at this hospital (St. Francis in Cape Girardeau, MO) is two to three times what it is in far better institutions in St. Louis.

Not for profit...my a$$...benevolent...my a$$...

The three Catholic hospitals I've learned the inner workings of have all been money making machines.

The Church hasn't been benevolent for a few thousand years.

Also, I went to Catholic school...K thru 12. It was a great education but "discipline by shame" doesn't tend to produce well rounded, rational, independent thinking adults. Nuns ruled the day back in the 60's and 70's. And I've never met a nurturing nun.

 

[steingar]

I suspect a lot of the "charitable" institutions run by churches are charitable in name only. That said, I still maintain that the Catholic church has tremendous potential for good works. I hope the guy they found has the stuff and can make it happen. I suspect not, one guy, even at the head, can only make so much difference in a very large and bureaucratic organization.

 

[RoscoeT]

He has no patience for hypocrisy, and is not afraid to publicly chastise those in the church whose actions articulate it.

Hypocrisy? You mean he has no patience for one of the fundamental underpinnings of organized religion? And how many pedophile priests do you expect he'll immediately boot out the door? And there's plenty of public lip service "chastising" that goes on the world. Actions man, actions.

 

[nddons]

Is a moderator planning on moving this to the Spin Zone anytime soon?

Apparently you can't post anything about what appears to be a great man without turning it into an anti-religious ****show by those who can't play nice.

 

[timwinters]

Is a moderator planning on moving this to the Spin Zone anytime soon?

Apparently you can't post anything about what appears to be a great man without turning it into an anti-religious ****show by those who can't play nice.

So, let me get this straight...

...what you're saying is that talking about how great the catholic church and it's leader are is appropriate for hangar talk but...

...talking about how effed up they are is spin zone material...

...okay, I get it.

 

[olasek]

Our local "catholic" hospital is one of those great benevolent institutions.

I can also open for profit hospital and add 'Catholic' adjective to it. By declaring it is Catholic I only pledge to follow principles established by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for running such hospitals. By the way, you can look it up what the guidelines are.

 

[weilke]

Our local "catholic" hospital is one of those great benevolent institutions.
.
.
.
The average stay and/or procedure at this hospital (St. Francis in Cape Girardeau, MO) is two to three times what it is in far better institutions in St. Louis.

Not for profit...my a$$...benevolent...my a$$...
.

Let me guess, the other newspaper in town 'uncovered' those facts.

So you would prefer if your hospital had a weak presence in the marketplace and was run in an inefficient manner ? I have seen what happens if a community hospital shuts down, it is not pretty. The only way for a hospital to be able to provide freebies like ER care is to have a strong financial result in areas like outpatient surgery and imaging. You have to be profitable to be a non-profit.

 

[EppyGA]

Close........... But no cigar.....

The next largest private landowner in the state of Florida is Coca Cola with the massive acreage of citrus groves owned by Minute Maid...


The largest land owner is the Mormon Church..... The Deseret Ranch extends from just south of Orlando and extends all the way down to almost West Palm Beach........

Now why a religion needs that much real estate to spread their religious message is beyond me..

Are they not allowed to own real estate?

 

[DavidWhite]

Close........... But no cigar.....

The next largest private landowner in the state of Florida is Coca Cola with the massive acreage of citrus groves owned by Minute Maid...


The largest land owner is the Mormon Church..... The Deseret Ranch extends from just south of Orlando and extends all the way down to almost West Palm Beach........

Now why a religion needs that much real estate to spread their religious message is beyond me..

Well, they gotta be able to build a Mormon bunker somewhere.

 

[timwinters]

Let me guess, the other newspaper in town 'uncovered' those facts.

Oh, hell no. None of the media here would touch it. They're all making far too much money. The St. Louis media brought it to light.

So you would prefer if your hospital had a weak presence in the marketplace and was run in an inefficient manner ? I have seen what happens if a community hospital shuts down, it is not pretty. The only way for a hospital to be able to provide freebies like ER care is to have a strong financial result in areas like outpatient surgery and imaging. You have to be profitable to be a non-profit.

Their crosstown rival, Southeast Hospital spends less than 10% what St. Francis does on advertising and does just fine. But, of course, they charge nearly as much...riding the coat tails.

BTW, one of the largest local employers, proctor&gamble, will pay mileage and hotel costs (if necessary) for their employees to use non-emergency medical services in St. Louis...2 hours up the road.

I'm self insured and very sensitive of my rates so I go to Springfield (where I lived until about 4 years ago). I check prices here before I go. This year's example: Colonoscopy in Springfield $2,900. Here $10,500.

And...Seriously...you don't think that spending $140/bed/day on advertising is just a tad out of line? Really?